[Alistarn 3 Third Strike]

Well, it had to be done.

And one question: which is better for 60 caps, PLD/WAR or PLD/NIN?

[Bassus]

pld/nin

[Dragan]

PLD/WHM

[Seraph]

I went PLD/DRK. Was a nice combo but Souleater really isn't worth it unless you're a Galka.

[Bassus]

well im a war so from my prospective I have a very hard time fighting a pld/nin

since you have shadows, cure, and 2 weapons.

/whm sub you have more mp better cures, diaga and other spells.

but trust me im a war and i have a harder time when fighting a pld/nin then a pld/war

[Geothermal]

Pld/Nin is far greater.

Suited up correctly, you're at the very least a tier II damage threat. And that's really considering there's some great DDs.

On average, I hit for on average 50-60 a swing, with a Bastard Sword, and a Tactician's Magician's Espadon +1. Most Drk/Nin's, and WARs(Usually the strongest of DDs), hit for about 55-65 a swing. Of course, what truly matters, is the Weapon Skill. Vorpal Blade can be powerful, as the Nin sub grants an extra hit. While not as impressive as the Rampages and Guillotine's doing 800-1000 damage, on average if all blows connect, you're looking at 400-500 damage. With a Bard using double Minuet, I've hit Galka Dark Knights for upwards of 700 damage.

But as opposed to the monster DDs, we of course have use of curative spells, and naturally high defense. This makes us more of an all around player, losing out on the brute force that the higher tiered DDs possess, in place for longevity. I can honestly say that I'm pretty damn involved in battles, and it's a rarity when I die.

The biggest problem is Accuracy though. Good Thiefs and Ninja's will dodge quite a bit of attacks. Bring along Bream Sushi for the +16% Accuracy Bonus if you're in a match against said Thf or Nin.

[Jormungand]

Best Paladin is one that gears up in Def. equipment and does what s/he's good at, taking damage and curing.

If you really want to do damage and use shadows. There is a job you should consider, and that's...ninja. Remember, you're a tank, act like one. You may hit alot per swing, but consider how slow you're swinging loves.

[Geothermal]

Jormungand :
Best Paladin is one that gears up in Def. equipment and does what s/he's good at, taking damage and curing.

If you really want to do damage and use shadows. There is a job you should consider, and that's...ninja. Remember, you're a tank, act like one. You may hit alot per swing, but consider how slow you're swinging loves.

w...tf.

This is Ballista. You have no idea what you're talking about. ;x

[Tainted]

Geothermal :

Jormungand :
Best Paladin is one that gears up in Def. equipment and does what s/he's good at, taking damage and curing.

If you really want to do damage and use shadows. There is a job you should consider, and that's...ninja. Remember, you're a tank, act like one. You may hit alot per swing, but consider how slow you're swinging loves.

w...tf.

This is Ballista. You have no idea what you're talking about. ;x

Why go pld/nin if you can just go war/nin or drk/nin? It'd be best if you just stacked up on def and damage deduction and act as support.

pld/whm, pld/rdm, and pld/war or all good and can fit a support role well.

[Seraph]

Because PLD is a WAR with more defensive abilities. They aren't made for spikes, rather more DoT and the reduction of deaths. Playing a support role helps the team in one way but playing an attack role equally helps depending on the situation in both circumstances. Geothermal's point of view is a valid one. So are both of yours, but the concept of PLD only playing support isn't a good one. PLD can push out the numbers and stay alive while doing it.

[Geothermal]

Tainted :

Geothermal :

Jormungand :
Best Paladin is one that gears up in Def. equipment and does what s/he's good at, taking damage and curing.

If you really want to do damage and use shadows. There is a job you should consider, and that's...ninja. Remember, you're a tank, act like one. You may hit alot per swing, but consider how slow you're swinging loves.

w...tf.

This is Ballista. You have no idea what you're talking about. ;x

Why go pld/nin if you can just go war/nin or drk/nin? It'd be best if you just stacked up on def and damage deduction and act as support.

pld/whm, pld/rdm, and pld/war or all good and can fit a support role well.

Well, because one, Paladin could possibly be your only job high enough.

And for two, a Pld/Nin lives longer than either of those ever will, while being slightly less powerful, with the exception of TP.

Also, Paladin's who stack up on Def and damage reduction make me laugh. You know what logical people do with them? Get a few hits for TP off of them, then use the TP gained to completely eradicate a Ranger or Samurai, two jobs with pitiful Defense. Provoke subbed is all but useless for those most part, Whm subbed is lame until you have access to Spirit Taker, and Rdm, well, that's a very good subjob in uncapped.

Why go Pld/Nin? It's a slightly weaker version of the top tiered DDs, with Curative spells, and naturally high defense to stick around in battle longer, without giving the opposition Gate Breach. Not to say that subbing White Mage or Red Mage is bad, you can fill the role of support very well in uncapped, but why gimp your potential? Paladin has the second highest base Strength in the game, put it to good use.

I can honestly say that in 60 cap, it's not unusual to match, or be one of the top sources of damage. Naturally the Drk/Nins and War/Nins are top, but a smart Pld/Nin will not be too far behind. Pair that with survivability, and you're a consistant source of damage, while for the most part being self-sufficient, something a War/Nin or Drk/Nin cannot do without many meds.

[Angel of Enders]

Yeah I gotta agree with Jorm. If you're happy with going the DD PLD/NIN route so be it. With no natural ATK buffs, I could never really be honestly satisfied with those Vorpals. >_>

I have much better results with PLD/WHM on 60 cap because people, atleast on my server, seem to assume PLD with a sword or shield is subbing WAR. So it's never a surprise when someone tries to Aspir me just to get blined or stoneskined and getting THFs to hit for 0 using the effects of a Spartan Holplons so they waste like 10 seconds on you getting 0 TP return. Getting off a DS + Cure IV is also a good way to just ruin someone's hardwork on trying to kill you.

Only thing about this is you're pretty much there for support and petra whoring. But if you do too much support, you'll become useless fast. So use MP at your own discretion. We already have high STR but unless you have some accuracy, don't rely on meleeing people too much with much success.

Whenever I decide to use PLD, I get much more joy of reducing as much dmg as possible. If I wanna do dmg, that's what I lvled WAR for.

[Alyth]

man you guys are crazy, PLD/NIN owns in 60cap on my server atleast, one JP, Barlog, has some nasty Vorpal blades averaging 700-850 which is defenetly on par with war's and average drks ws.

PLD may not have attack buffs, but the high defense, curing abilitys and the usefulness of flash if used right well makes up for it. and with pld/nin youve got that extra ws hit potential and shadows, shadows are actually more helpful than they appear. When i play on my WAR/NIN and SAM/RNG i always target non shadow people, mostly DRK and other SAM.

[Tainted]

The only time a pld/nin living longer matters is if you put yourself into a situation that it'd be wise to avoid. The only time that your claims to be able to out live a war and drk matters is when you unfortunately get shadowbound.

pld/nin isn't a slightly weaker version of TP tier DD. You have nothing at all to boost your damage. Your DoT doesn't mean anything if you're just running in to get TP and running out. Because after you go try to WS someone, you can't put up any kind of decent numbers, it's easily just cured off if not immediately followed up by someone else. I'd feel kind of bad if my average WS was cured by a single elixer.. Also if you to get the rare occasion for a duel against someone with a nin sub, or a nin, what good are you? Because of your delay and lack of double attack or poisonga, you just sit there and waste time. It's not about who can last the longest, it's about who can take who out the fastest. A pld is not very good at that at all. A pld doesn't have the strength to even make a properly equipped rng sweat. If you want to DD, go war or drk. Stop being gimp.

And what makes you think that by subbing nin you're still not a target for TP? You may not be a target for a WS, but if a mage is doing their job and casting -ga then you're one of the best choices still for running in and getting TP.

So yeah, pld/nin is no where near second tier DD. They'd fit right into third tier nicely though if equipped right. As support though, they're right up there with whm.

The top soucres in damage are the same as all caps. War, drk, mnk, rng, nin, sam. The ones who are good at dealing a lot of damage fast. I guess if you want to feel good about your, congrats for surviving Souleater + Vorpal Blade with 200 HP or so.

[Lucavi]

The veteran plds on my server (both NA and JP) go pld/whm for 60-uncapped matches, and stack up on defense gear. They spam diaga and always have stoneskin up, and usually can tank 3-4 tricked out mnks for a good twenty seconds or so -- more than enough time for the mages and DD to converge and kill one or two of them for breach. The plds I've played against are also good "chasers": since they have decent attacking speed and high defense, they have the ability to hunt weakened opponents for long distances, while other, less defensive jobs (like my drg for instance) can only chase somone so far away from the crowd, out of fear of getting ganged up on and raped by the other team. If my drg can't kill an opponent within at least a hundred feet of the main group, they're not going to get killed by me unless I have 2 calthicons and a carnal essence.

Pld/whms, on the other hand, can not only stalk an opponent, but can successfully keep them busy until they either land a decent WS for the kill, or until reinforcements arrive. Pld/whms are some of the best rook-camping jobs in the game, with their naturally fast attack speed, diaga-spam, and high HP an Defense, to hold out against whoever they are engaged with. They do an excellent job of preventing somone from scoring, or multiple people at once. Its an ability that should not be overlooked in ballista, especially when so much of the game depends on not just scoring for your team, but preventing the opponents from doing the same.

Pld/nin just seems like another job that wants to front-line and try to rack up kills by using two weapons (not very strong ones at that) and hiding behind utsu. The "jack of all trades" approach really dosen't work well for plds in the upper ballista levels because ga-spells are always flying around to kill utsu, and even with dual-wield, those sword strikes aren't hitting for more than 50-ish on the weaker defensive units, like drk, some drgs, and certain mages. Even if utsu is soaking up hits, most pld/nins Ive witnessed rarely get hit for more than 50 a swing by ANY job outside of a drk using souleater. The stoneskin lasts a good while, and after thats down, most shots are doing 10-40, and with over 1.5k hp, the pld can stay alive for a good while.

IMO, the best combos for plds are /whm and /rdm for tanking/tracking, and /war and /sam for well-roundedness. There's not much better out there than having a pld voke a melee off of you as a lower-defensive job, allowing you to fully concentrate on doing YOUR job, which is to deal damage and land kills.

[Geothermal]

Tainted :
The only time a pld/nin living longer matters is if you put yourself into a situation that it'd be wise to avoid. The only time that your claims to be able to out live a war and drk matters is when you unfortunately get shadowbound.

pld/nin isn't a slightly weaker version of TP tier DD. You have nothing at all to boost your damage. Your DoT doesn't mean anything if you're just running in to get TP and running out. Because after you go try to WS someone, you can't put up any kind of decent numbers, it's easily just cured off if not immediately followed up by someone else. I'd feel kind of bad if my average WS was cured by a single elixer.. Also if you to get the rare occasion for a duel against someone with a nin sub, or a nin, what good are you? Because of your delay and lack of double attack or poisonga, you just sit there and waste time. It's not about who can last the longest, it's about who can take who out the fastest. A pld is not very good at that at all. A pld doesn't have the strength to even make a properly equipped rng sweat. If you want to DD, go war or drk. Stop being gimp.

And what makes you think that by subbing nin you're still not a target for TP? You may not be a target for a WS, but if a mage is doing their job and casting -ga then you're one of the best choices still for running in and getting TP.

So yeah, pld/nin is no where near second tier DD. They'd fit right into third tier nicely though if equipped right. As support though, they're right up there with whm.

The top soucres in damage are the same as all caps. War, drk, mnk, rng, nin, sam. The ones who are good at dealing a lot of damage fast. I guess if you want to feel good about your, congrats for surviving Souleater + Vorpal Blade with 200 HP or so.

Well, I guess that settles it. You've either never seen a Pld/Nin, or you've never Ballista'ed. ;x

Samurai, top tier DD? Lmao. The only way they even touch top tier in 60 cap in subbing Rng, and a Soboro Sukehiro. And even then, I kick the living hell out of them in damage. They may hit for 40-60 damage a hit, but unless that Sukehiro is proc'ing every single turn, I will outparse overall damage. Like I said, which the exception of other Paladins, I hit on average 100 a round. Then, the Sidewinder. Usually around 500. Vorpal will easily achieve 500 damage. Barrage is iffy at best, and Flash completely ruins it. Not to mention it's a JA, and you won't have frequent access to it. Meditate builds up their damage formidably, but thier lack of shadows, and overall defense, keeps them from being top tiered. Because after all, to be top tiered, you need to inflict maximum damage, while also not giving Gate Breach.

As for boosting damage, we honestly don't need any Passive Traits/JA's to boost damage. With only a Haubergeon, Bastard Sword, TM Espadon +1, Fang Earring, and RK Breeches for Attack + equipment, I hit like a Monk. If I were to get a Patroclus' Helm, and HQ some gear, it would just be obscene.

Subbing White Mage in all but uncapped is retarded. With the exception of Mithra or Taru, unless you're pumping out some +MP gear(thus defeating the purpose of all your Defense), you're going to expend it fast. And when you're out of MP, or down to 120 or so, you're basically useless. Not to mention, as a support job, you're standing in the backlines. Defense and Vitality is going to do much when you're not in battle. And if you participate in battle, even dumber. You're susceptible to Bind, Gravity, and Stun more than anyone without the possibility to utilize shadows.

By the way, who the hell uses Souleater when a Sword mainhand? Souleater + Rampage is superior.

[Tainted]

I don't know, I guess you don't have any drk who use sword/mecuril(sp) kris. Then again, what do you know? You think a pld/nin can compete in DD terms with a sam.

You can't compare your damage to a mnk's, mainly because you can't hit nearly as fast as them. The highest damage potential for sam is war sub using polearm. As pld/nin, you are not going to touch that. ^^ Hell, as pld/wardrkninmnksamgodfused you're not going to touch that. DoT is nice, but spike damage is what gets gate breach. That's why every looks forward to having a good drk or war or rng.

Too bad my nin gets all that same gear. Can live longer and easier than you, and puts out on average more damage than you. Again, stop being a gimp DD job.

Okay, so because you're standing in the back lines def and vit are worthless. Let's get all of the rdm and whm to drop their def gear for HP > MP gear. Then after that have them use light staff. ^^;; I mean, because no one ever dares attack people who hide in the back. No sir.

[Seraph]

This topic bores me now.

Everything said so far is situational at best and lacks the variables that creates the atmosphere of Ballista. PLD/WAR deals a good amount of damage geared properly and only lacks a -few- basic traits that WAR does. The difference is approximately 20 attack and the ability to wield axes instead of Swords, aswell as the useless ability(In Ballista it's useless only, god knows I adore this ability.) Aggressor. Can people not see that? PLD is not a support only in Ballista, it is seperated by very miniscule things such as petty tier 1 job traits.

PLD can damage deal in Ballista quite effectively, although I'm not very keen on the idea of /NIN, it's still a viable trait. My point? They're not solely support and restricting anyone to just that isn't looking at the job objectively. PLD can do two things in Ballista, unlike in exp PTs.

[Alyth]

umm Tainted, how does sam have the highest damage potential as SAM/WAR with a polearm... rockin the Couse with some 400 Pentra thrusts isnt exactly that great. SAM/RNG, Soboro Sukihiro, barrage, sidewinders for 500-600 kicks the shit out of sam/war.

[Tainted]

400? It's not hard to hit 500-800(varies with TP). And it's just that, potential. A berserked full penta thrust with double attack is going to do more than a sidewinder. I thought that was common sense.