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Thoughts on Immigrants Rights..

#41
User is offline   Sirstyles 

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haxorbyday :
bout time some ppl start talking since...


God damn. Did you even finish school.

*About time some people start talking sense...*

Even then it's a horribly constructed sentence.

Look if you can't even speak english properly you are no better than the beaners. You sure as hell aren't allowed to debate the topic.

Idiot.
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#42

Sirstyles :

God damn. Did you even finish school.

*About time some people start talking sense...*

Even then it's a horribly constructed sentence.

Look if you can't even speak english properly you are no better than the beaners. You sure as hell aren't allowed to debate the topic.

Idiot.


I don't know why, but 'sense' didn't even pop into my head. I thought he just had some run-on sentence. Nice own though.
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#43
User is offline   Dimmauk 

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Sirstyles :
haxorbyday :
bout time some ppl start talking since...


God damn. Did you even finish school.

*About time some people start talking sense...*

Even then it's a horribly constructed sentence.

Look if you can't even speak english properly you are no better than the beaners. You sure as hell aren't allowed to debate the topic.

Idiot.



LOL, you forgot the question mark at the end of "Did you even finish school":D
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#44
User is offline   Barachiel 

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If all the illegals were to just dissappear, the country would cease to function. The bill said it would be a felony to be an illegal immigrant, or to knowingly help them, that is what they were protesting. Rather than writing bills punishing people who want to work here for minimum wage, the government needs to put more effort into making sure the ones that are hard working individuals stay, while the social scum that join gangs and commit crimes get deported.
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#45
User is offline   Hartigan 

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Moving from Indiana to southern cali, the change is tremendous. I may not have said this a year ago, but my point of view has been totally changed after living near the boarder.

Get the hell outta my country ya beaners!
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#46

Barachiel :
If all the illegals were to just dissappear, the country would cease to function. The bill said it would be a felony to be an illegal immigrant, or to knowingly help them, that is what they were protesting. Rather than writing bills punishing people who want to work here for minimum wage, the government needs to put more effort into making sure the ones that are hard working individuals stay, while the social scum that join gangs and commit crimes get deported.


Yea, I agree. Our country depends on illegal immigrants to keep us up and running... in case you hadn't caught on, that's sarcasm. The ones that work hard need to get their asses deported and get into the country legally, as well.
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#47
User is offline   Barachiel 

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ok say hello to $5 heads of lettuce.
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#48
User is offline   Rimesume 

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Barachiel :
If all the illegals were to just dissappear, the country would cease to function. The bill said it would be a felony to be an illegal immigrant, or to knowingly help them, that is what they were protesting. Rather than writing bills punishing people who want to work here for minimum wage, the government needs to put more effort into making sure the ones that are hard working individuals stay, while the social scum that join gangs and commit crimes get deported.


That's the problem though, illegals don't work for minimum wage. They make sub-wage. An American citizen won't work for sub-wage.

If a business can paint houses for 20 bucks a day hiring illegals vice hiring an American that has to make minimum wage(believe me painters make more than minimum wage) for over 50 bucks a day, who do you think that job is going to go to? This goes beyond the laws as now they are nothing short of a joke.

If all the illegals were to leave today, and coupled with the liquidation of welfare, unemployment would near-vanish save for minors(under 18 which don't count in the statistics anyway), elderly, and the disabled. When there is a high demand for a worker, wages skyrocket. This is common sense. Nurses pay for example quintupled in the year 2000-2001. Due to a nationwide shortage of over 50%. You would see the same happen in these "jobs no one wants". These jobs would go from undesirable due to low wages, to highly desirable and in high demand thanks to increased wages. The economy as a whole would increase. Inflation is not a problem as long as wages increase to balance out the cost. That right there lies a lot of problems throughout California. The nationwide price of everything has risen but the wages have not. To say this is completely at fault of illegal workers is false, but I am willing to say illegal workforce does contribute at least in access of 40% of the problem. Which is an astronomical amount when compared to the literally billions of dollars that go in and out of San Diego alone, much less the rest of the Southwest region of the United States!
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#49
User is offline   Dimmauk 

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Greed is the reason for low wages and low minimum wages.

Dont blame immigrants.

Also if all the illegals left, the jobs would just leave with them.
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#50
User is offline   Rimesume 

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Dimmauk :
Greed is the reason for low wages and low minimum wages.

Dont blame immigrants.

Also if all the illegals left, the jobs would just leave with them.


I disagree. If all the illegals left the demand for the services they provided would still be there. People are always going to want their houses painted for example. This would lead to a shortage of painters and thus higher wages for the AMERICAN painter. Business greed only goes so far, if they can't get people to work for the wages they off then naturally they will HAVE to compete with the employee market. Simple as that. If they don't increase their wages they go out of business due to the lack of workers.

Company A: Pays a painter 10 bucks an hour

Company B through E: Pays a panter 30 bucks an hour.

Why work for company A when you can work for company B for 3 times as much? This is why greed only goes so far.
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#51
User is offline   Dimmauk 

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Sure, things like construction, painting, and lawn services would stay.

I'm willing to bet that agriculture would be affected more.

I'd also bet that agriculture makes more money than construction, painting, and lawn services.

Other key findings included in their executive summary are as follows:


Of the documented jobs that left the United States for other countries in January through March 2004, 23,396 went to Mexico, 8,283 to China, 3,895 to India, 5,511 to Latin American countries other than Mexico, 4,419 to Asian countries other than China and 2,933 to other countries.

The U.S. Midwest lost the most jobs to outsourcing (18,968) from January through March 2004. Other U.S. regions that lost a lot of jobs were the Southeast (8,604) and Northeast (7,223). The states hardest hit were Illinois (7,555 jobs lost) and Michigan (5,283 jobs lost).

Unionized jobs accounted for a disproportionate 39 percent of the U.S. jobs that moved to other countries during the time period studied. In addition, 29 percent of the companies shifting production out of the United States were unionized, the report showed.

From January through March 2004, there were 69 production shifts from the United States to Mexico (compared with 30 during the same period in 2001); 58 shifts to China (compared with 25 shifts in January-March 2001); and 31 shifts to India (compared with 1 shift in January-March 2001).


http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Oct04...cing.rpt.04.pdf

I live in Texas, which is a at-will work state(No Unions). Meaning, companies move to Texas for "tax breaks", but really to get away from Unions. They wait 1 year, then outsource to Mexico for cheaper labor.

Like I said, you get rid of a huge cheap workforce, MORE jobs will be outsourced.
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#52
User is offline   Rimesume 

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This is why there is a bill to hiring illegals a federal felony chargeable with fines and/or prison sentences for offenders, both for repeat offenders.

A farmer would thus be unable to outsource. As you cannot pick up a chunk of land and move it to Mexico. Therefore he would have to hire American workers at American pay, regardless of Unions.

Finding farmers breaking the law would not be difficult as they must report how much they make a year, and expenditures to the IRS. This is just one of many ways they find this stuff out. Another way is of course the American worker getting turned down for a job, and thus reporting the incident to the Better Business Bureau, or any other like said agencies.

Say a farmer makes 10 million in a year. But only pays 10k in employee wages, that would put a flag up to do not only a tax audit, but also to send an investigation team to aforementioned business.


Dimmauk :
Sure, things like construction, painting, and lawn services would stay.

I'm willing to bet that agriculture would be affected more.

I'd also bet that agriculture makes more money than construction, painting, and lawn services.



Other key findings included in their executive summary are as follows:


Of the documented jobs that left the United States for other countries in January through March 2004, 23,396 went to Mexico, 8,283 to China, 3,895 to India, 5,511 to Latin American countries other than Mexico, 4,419 to Asian countries other than China and 2,933 to other countries.

The U.S. Midwest lost the most jobs to outsourcing (18,968) from January through March 2004. Other U.S. regions that lost a lot of jobs were the Southeast (8,604) and Northeast (7,223). The states hardest hit were Illinois (7,555 jobs lost) and Michigan (5,283 jobs lost).

Unionized jobs accounted for a disproportionate 39 percent of the U.S. jobs that moved to other countries during the time period studied. In addition, 29 percent of the companies shifting production out of the United States were unionized, the report showed.

From January through March 2004, there were 69 production shifts from the United States to Mexico (compared with 30 during the same period in 2001); 58 shifts to China (compared with 25 shifts in January-March 2001); and 31 shifts to India (compared with 1 shift in January-March 2001).


http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Oct04...cing.rpt.04.pdf

I live in Texas, which is a at-will work state(No Unions). Meaning, companies move to Texas for "tax breaks", but really to get away from Unions. They wait 1 year, then outsource to Mexico for cheaper labor.

Like I said, you get rid of a huge cheap workforce, MORE jobs will be outsourced.

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#53
User is offline   Dimmauk 

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The farmer would have to actually move to Mexico. They have farms there that grow the same crops, but their crops get taxed to hell. In the long run, it would still be cheaper to grow in Mexico than pay Minimum wage here.
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#54
User is offline   Rimesume 

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Dimmauk :
The farmer would have to actually move to Mexico. They have farms there that grow the same crops, but their crops get taxed to hell. In the long run, it would still be cheaper to grow in Mexico than pay Minimum wage here.


It very well may be cheaper, but I doubt the United States imports agricultural goods from Mexico(on a massive level outside of cash crops like coffee). It would also be ridiculous to say that all farmers or even more than 25% would be willing to move to Mexico. It isn't exactly the best place in the world to live. Americans don't want to leave America. Also, many farmers had their land passed down from generation to generation, to sell the farm is unthinkable, much less move to Mexico.


EDIT:
Simply put, and I am sure most would agree, I would rather be dirt poor in the United States, than dirt poor in Mexico.
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#55
User is offline   Ammoth 

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Kay :
If they outrun the bullets then they can get a job.
Lmfao!
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#56
User is offline   Spoonman 

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Why is there even a discussion on this?? Illegal immigrants Hmm.... let me think about this..... Oh yeah it says ILLEGAL in the name. Why is this the only crime in the U.S. that goes un punished on a daily basis? These Illegal people have no rights that Americans have in this country as far as I am concerned other than basic human rights.

edit: spelling :-)
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#57
User is offline   Dimmauk 

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Here is an excellant commentary about the recent immigration issues.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/colu...on_battles.html

Its east to read, and in big letters! So even the most retarded K.I. poster can understand it!





Here are the highlights for the lazy bastards
So what's wrong with Specter's bill? As the Times notes (approvingly), the legalization part wouldn't amount to "amnesty"—current illegal immigrants wouldn't automatically be granted citizenship. They could either leave the country and apply for a "guest worker" spot—more on that in a bit—or pay a fine of some $3,500 to $6,500 and receive "Deferred Mandatory Departure" status, under which they could live in this country for five years so long as they worked continuously, and then apply for citizenship, if any spots are available, of course. While that sounds fair on the surface, the problem is that the "continuous work" requirement in the Specter bill doesn't appear to contain any exceptions for retirement, downsizing, strikes, or recession. And it's possible that the path to citizenship is so uncertain that many immigrants would simply refuse to take the offer and go deeper underground. (In contrast, the immigration proposal written by John McCain and Ted Kennedy would allow all unauthorized immigrants to enter a legalization program at the time the law comes into effect, giving everyone an incentive to join the legal workforce.)

But the worst part comes with the creation of a "non-immigrant temporary guest worker" visa in the proposed law, something the White House has strongly backed. Employers would have to first offer jobs to native workers in the area, and if there are no takers, the firms could go abroad hunting for immigrant laborers. The visas would be for three years and can be renewed once. (More likely, many workers would likely just stay on illegally rather than actually go home when their time is up.) Not surprisingly, these visas don't guarantee the right to strike or organize, although companies are required to offer some labor protections—in theory, for instance, they must offer temporary workers the same wages and working conditions as they would U.S. workers.

Earlier this month, the AFL-CIO's Executive Vice-President, Linda Chavez-Thompson, called the guest-worker proposal a "blueprint for exploitation," and history suggests she's onto something. Between 1942 and 1964, when immigration was still very much restricted in this country, the federal government set up the Bracero Program, allowing farms to import "guest workers" for agricultural work. Immigrants in Mexico were placed in holding pens at the border, where they were stripped, deloused, and shuttled off to the United States. There they were bound to their employers and unable to speak out against poor working conditions for fear of deportation. Predictably, immigrants were exploited, and the program eventually ended after allegations of abuse came to light—not to mention the fact that growers often imported braceros to use as union-busters during farmworker strikes. Above all, the program did little to halt illegal immigration.

What guest worker programs can do is allow employers to keep wages and labor standards low. After all, immigrants can't really bargain for better pay or complain about working conditions if they live in fear of losing their visa and being deported. Employers essentially get free rein to commit labor violations—and frequently do so. The Senate recently heard testimony that "foreign guest workers" working for forestry companies in Oregon faced "unhealthy sleeping conditions… in the field when it was freezing or snowing; unacceptable foot attire; and transport vehicles lacking proper license and other certification information." Half of forestry workers earned less than $4,400 a year. After all, who was going to complain?

Many opponents of immigration argue that immigrants are a drag on economic growth and depress wages. The former is untrue: the consensus among experts is that immigration offers positive, if modest, benefits to the United States economy, having similar effects as robust population growth. (It also has very large benefits for the sending country—remittances are a major source of income for, for instance, Mexico, totaling $16 billion last year.) Nor is it necessarily the case, as Paul Krugman wrote in the New York Times on Monday, that immigrants "threaten to unravel" the American welfare state. Most immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits—although it's true that financing for various safety net programs may need to be tweaked in the future to accommodate immigration flows. Moreover, increased immigration will help ensure that an aging native population in the United States can continue to afford Social Security and Medicare.

The more serious objection is the latter—that increasing the supply of unskilled labor into this country will, in all likelihood, depress wages of low-income native workers. (Not all economists agree: Berkeley economist David Card has recently produced evidence to the contrary.) But even if that's true, "guest worker" programs surely make the situation worse, by allowing employers to underpay captive immigrant workers, preventing them from bargaining for wages, organizing, or striking—thereby keeping wages down for all workers.

A better idea would be to make sure that all workers, regardless of their nationality, are protected from exploitation. Whistleblower protections for immigrants, along with the right to organize and strike, would go along way in that regard. And the only way to do that is to ensure that all immigrants who work here have a clear path to citizenship, so that they don't have to live in constant fear of deportation, and aren't at the mercy of their employers. Specter's bill makes some encouraging steps in this direction, but hardly goes far enough.

Congress could also get serious about levying stiff penalties against firms that employ and exploit illegal immigrants. Currently, less than 1 percent of immigration enforcement money is directed towards this goal. Specter's bill would increase funds on this front, although business lobbyists have been effective in the past about thwarting these measure, and will likely lobby hard this time around.

Finally, two things ought to accompany any fair immigration bill. To protect native low-income workers, the country needs a more robust safety net—living wages, labor law reform, and full employment policies to ensure that anyone who wants a job can have one. The United States also needs to help those countries that are sending immigrants—such as Mexico—to develop. Immigrants will continue to come here in large numbers so long as the wage disparity between the United States and, for instance, Mexico is large. Unfortunately, in the current political climate, and with the current Republican Congress, we are not likely to see either one happen. More to the point, the GOP leadership is likely to make Specter's legislation even worse when it comes time to reconcile the House and Senate bills. In that case, the best outcome might be for nothing to happen for the time being.

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#58
User is offline   Evilblackdragon 

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Grammer Police vs. Spelling Police


Fight!!!!!
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#59
User is offline   Dimmauk 

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#60
User is offline   Abattoir Siren 

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Barachiel :
If all the illegals were to just dissappear, the country would cease to function. The bill said it would be a felony to be an illegal immigrant, or to knowingly help them, that is what they were protesting. Rather than writing bills punishing people who want to work here for minimum wage, the government needs to put more effort into making sure the ones that are hard working individuals stay, while the social scum that join gangs and commit crimes get deported.


OMG someone understands the bill.

the issue isn't immigration, it's the fact that anyone that willingly HELPS an immigrant will be convicted of a felony. this includeds preist that let them into their churchs, teachers that help them learn english and the process of becoming documented citizens. the Doctors who don't care about welfare/money and are actually there to HELP people. these are the people that will be prossecuted for just HELPING people out of the goodness of their hearts.

Where do all you fucking people get off thinking it's ok to start calling everyone a fucking beaner? no fuck that. if i were to start putting nigger and kike in my posts i'd get a warning or even banned. so what the fuck justifies the use of beaner? so get the fuck of your high horses and shut the fuck up about illegal immigrants because immigration is not the issue here.
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