[spira]

To what I know, SMN get hate from using BPs, but all BP hate is the same..

Carby should have hate if he's whacking onto the mob, but when you say 'let the mob almost beat Carby to death' then there is a much greater chance that you'll pull hate here.. NOT BECAUSE different BPs have different hate gain, but rather its due to the fact that Avatars do lose hate when they take too much damage, just like normal mobs. If it so happens that the little hate that BP gains turns the mob, then it happens, whether or not its Shining Ruby, Healing Ruby or Poison Nails

[Shefki]

I'm aware of that. The test wasn't designed to prove that one BP has different hate generation than another. It was intended to disprove the idea that healing BPs don't produce any hate on the Summoner.

I still believe that any BP where you target the enemy produces more hate than one where you don't. But given that they're very small amounts of hate it's pretty hard to come up with a way to prove which ones generates more hate.

[Rakshaka]

Fenrir is the "Guardian of the Moon" not the "Keeper of Tommorow"

[Shalafi]

I think they all generate the same amount of hate regardless of which BP you are doing as they are all under the Pet Command Blood Pact. Not sure about other Pet Commands but I know Assault generates hate too.

I believe hate is triggered by the action, which would be a Pet Command. Which could explain why all generate the same hate to the Summoner, the "spell" is not performed by the SMN (i.e. more hate generated due to more HP healed back).

Not sure if anyone can follow my train of thought here, but hope someone can pick up on it

[Jeryhn]

Rakshaka :
Fenrir is the "Guardian of the Moon" not the "Keeper of Tommorow"

He is called both throughout the CoP storyline.
I chose the entry that better fits his storyline role.

Shalafi :
I believe hate is triggered by the action, which would be a Pet Command. Which could explain why all generate the same hate to the Summoner, the "spell" is not performed by the SMN.

I understand what you're getting at. You're suggesting that the actual hategain from using a Bloodpact is out of using any Pet Command, as if issuing Pet Commands was an ability all its own that generates a static amount of hate.

I also know for a fact that using Retreat can generate hate towards the summoner. You might be onto something here.

[Shalafi]

bump

[Smurfxxx]

Wow this information is wonderful. Great work so far. This topic more than needs sticky!

[spira]

but it has been.. its part of the compilation of info thread...

[Ohemgee]

TP return from Lv70 BPs?

(BP -> Charm -> )

[Jeryhn]

Ohemgee :
TP return from Lv70 BPs?

(BP -> Charm -> )

Monster TP gain from normal avatar attacks, Physical Bloodpacts, Multihit Bloodpacts and Magical Bloodpacts is actually something I'd like to test out myself very soon. I have a few BST friends who may be willing to help me get some results from this. I have a sneaking suspicion that Bloodpacts do cause mobs to gain TP, with the exception of the non-skillchainable physical Bloodpacts, where some people have reported zero mob TP gain. For example, I'd like to conduct tests between Axe Kick (Single Hit, Skillchainable), Double Slap (Two Hit, Skillchainable), Rush (Five Hit, non-Skillchainable) and Blizzard2/4/Heavenly Strike.

If anyone feels like testing this themselves, please feel free to post any data you gather.

[Ohemgee]

Jeryhn :

Ohemgee :
TP return from Lv70 BPs?

(BP -> Charm -> )

Monster TP gain from normal avatar attacks, Physical Bloodpacts, Multihit Bloodpacts and Magical Bloodpacts is actually something I'd like to test out myself very soon. I have a few BST friends who may be willing to help me get some results from this. I have a sneaking suspicion that Bloodpacts do cause mobs to gain TP, with the exception of the non-skillchainable physical Bloodpacts, where some people have reported zero mob TP gain. For example, I'd like to conduct tests between Axe Kick (Single Hit, Skillchainable), Double Slap (Two Hit, Skillchainable), Rush (Five Hit, non-Skillchainable) and Blizzard2/4/Heavenly Strike.

If anyone feels like testing this themselves, please feel free to post any data you gather.

I just wanted to prove even more that Garuda > Levi on wyrms D:

[Jeryhn]

Ohemgee :
I just wanted to prove even more that Garuda > Levi on wyrms D:

I think the difference between these two Bloodpacts is no contest. Obviously, the multihit Bloodpact is going to deal more damage than the single hit one when all hits connect. This is one reason I advocate that Summoner's always use their Evoker's Spats with their Summoner's Bracers.

All Wyrms have a constant Meditate effect anyway, and with the exception of Fafnir/Nidhogg, use their TP skills on a timer. Since the amount of TP a Wyrm has doesn't seem to effect the damage rating on their skills, and since both Bloodpacts do the same type of damage (slashing) and assuming the level 70 Bloodpacts even give TP to begin with, Predator Claws is still a clear winner over Spinning Dive.

EDIT:
Since this post, I went and tested mob TP gain with normal avatar melee attacks and Bloodpacts. To test this method, I would personally put up Blink and Stoneskin, as attacks that miss or do 0 damage generate 0 TP for mobs. I did not set Assault, I used the Bloodpact commands directly on mobs, which cause them to aggro me. My Beastmaster friend charmed them as soon as the effects of the Bloodpacts registered, not giving the mob enough time to land an attack on my avatar to skew the results.

To check against my results, I measured an avatar's auto-attacks on a mob to validate that avatars can increase mob TP. Their normal melee attacks generated 10 TP per hit they landed.

Bloodpacts I Tested:
Punch: 0 TP return.
Flaming Crush: 0 TP return.
Axe Kick: 0 TP return.
Double Slap: 0 TP return.
Rush: 0 TP return.
Blizzard 4: 0 TP return.
Heavenly Strike: 0 TP return.
Sleepga: 0 TP return.
Predator Claws: 0 TP return.
Eclipse Bite: 0 TP return.

I am going to conclude that it is fairly safe to say that no Bloodpacts cause mobs to generate TP.
This would go along with Ohemgee's claim that Garuda will generally outperform Leviathan assuming avatar accuracy isn't an issue. This argument would also apply to Ramuh vs. Titan.

As such, I've edited the original post with this new Bloodpact Rule:

☼ All Bloodpacts, when successfully executed, do not cause mobs to gain TP. This applies to physical Bloodpacts, magical Bloodpacts, and multihit Bloodpacts. However, avatars will still generate mob TP through auto-attacking (10TP per attack dealt).

If anyone wants to verify this data, again, feel free to test and post your results to check them against mine.

[Parody]

It's odd, I never knew Levi's dive techniques were slashing. Glad I know now.

[Ohemgee]

yay

[Jeryhn]

An update for the next Bloodpact I'm testing: Geocrush.

I recently finished aquiring all six of the new Bloodpacts, and they're all awesome of course. However, Geocrush is the only one out of the six that carries an additional effect, which is Stun. I went out and tested it on Lesser Colibris to gauge just how often the Stun effect kicked in, and much to my surprise after using Geocrush 20 times, the Stun seemed to proc each and every time, and lasted for a good 3-5 seconds, about the same as a Stun proc on Chaotic Strike. The problem is that I cannot confirm this alone, as there is no "The Lesser Colibri is no longer stunned." message that pops up, because the Summoner is not the actual entity that lands the Bloodpact, Titan is.

Take note that Geocrush is a direct damage earth-based magical attack, that carries an additional effect. There are other spells in the game that have these features: Dia, Bio and Mysterious Light to name a few. In the case of Dia and Bio, the additional effects proc 100% of the time. (As I'm not a BLU, I'm not entirely sure about Mysterious Light.) I'm guessing that Geocrush may be similar, with a 100% damage Stun proc whenever it lands.

I'd like to conduct a series of tests on Geocrush to determine how often it Stuns its target.

Possible Testing Methods

- Test on a monster resistant to earth magic, or to Stun. Kirin is a prime example, as he is resistant to both. Best to try using the Bloodpact when he is casting a single-target spell (when a blinktank will stay still within spell range to have his shadow absorb the spell) to try and interrupt it, or when he is being kited (he'll stop in his tracks when stunned). Tally how many times Kirin seems to be stunned under these conditions out of the total number of Geocrushes.

- Test with another person capable of casting Stun. Stun is a status effect that will not overwrite itself. Have this person cast Stun on a monster when they see Titan using Geocrush. Tally how many times the stunner gets a "No effect." message per Geocrush.

[Balzac]

Are all the new Prime Bloodpacts AoE attacks for the players like they are for the Prime in the BC?

[Jeryhn]

Balzac :
Are all the new Prime Bloodpacts AoE attacks for the players like they are for the Prime in the BC?

No, they're not AoE attacks for players or for Prime Avatars.

They're avatar magical attacks though, so they ignore Blink and Utsusemi shadows.
Many people mistake this as being small AoE attacks because of the way shadows can't defend against them.

[Rakshaka]

Geocrush and Chaotic Strike aren't 100% stun. Every so often in Dynamis, a mob will keep running around after it's been hit with geocrush or chaotic strike

[LushaSaleen]

Ok Jeryhn: I have some questions that maybe you or some other people might know here. I realize that we have specific type of damage on each bloodpact (i.e. Predator Claws is Slashing, Mountain Buster is Blunt, etc.). So from this, I always wondered what exactly the type of damage was on normal melee hits on each avatar.

We do Apollyon SE alot in our Limbus group, and I used to trio it with a friend and my boyfriend before we started our group. Now on the first floor, the slimes there are weak to Slashing/Piercing, but immune to hand-to-hand/blunt. So going in, I knew Predator Claws would do good (and it does). So since Predator Claws was slashing, I had always assumed that Garuda was slashing or piercing damage on normal melee hits. Well, come to find out (which boggled my brain til last night), Garuda's normal hits do 0 damage on the slimes. So thinking about this, I guess its safe to assume that her normal melee hits are hand-to-hand.

This might be common knowledge for some people, but I honestly have always wondered what type of damage the normal hits are of each avatar. So my question to everyone on these forums is: Does anyone know the specific type of damage of each avatar on normal melee hits? And if so, maybe we can add that into your guide here Jeryhn?

Thanks

[Unclear]

I was curious to more on your summoning pet rule.

First time I've heard of this was from a beast master friend who was explaining this to me. I know it's not definately confirmed but would you say that summoning with all your avatar atk / acc gear on, you could switch to perpet for the duration of keeping the avatar out? Or would you suggest, with what you've expierenced..it's best to summon with the enhancing gear, switch to perpet after a few moments after summoning..and then macro in the gear again when you use certain pacts?