[Bananaboy]

Just wanted to throw in some stuff, I am bored at work and I admire your effort in starting a new endgame LS.

neocron :
On another note, I understand why people use Windower. They want to be able to multi-task. They don't want to be locked to their computer. They want to be free to surf the internet while waiting for a party and whatnot. However, the question that begs to be asked is this:

Why would you want to be able to multi-task while doing a Sky run? Does multi-tasking make killing Kirin any faster? Does having the ability to pull up Allakhazam while camping MG make MG pop any faster? The simple truth of the matter is there is no reason on this green Earth why anyone would want to multi-task during an event.

After reading this, I realized that you might not have as much endgame experience as I thought you did at first. Endgame is all about waiting, waiting and more waiting. No matter what you are doing, you will always be waiting. So what are people to do when your sitting around waiting? Stare and try to make small talk with the LS? Not everyones that social. In sky, you will always have people that show up on time, and the majority show up late for whatever reason. You say the event starts at 6pm EST? They will head out at 6:05 EST with some BS excuse. You will wait for NMs in sky to pop, you will wait for other ls's to finish popping their gods, you will wait when people get lost in sky or die in the dumbest of spots. I understand you will allow a 30 minute grace period and then the event will start, but you will always not have enough to start without that person. Or the person running late is never a melee job, but a spoiled mage or bard (no offense, generalizing due to past experiences) in which you need the most. Wtf you gonna do with 5 drg's, 2 drk's, 7 nin's, 2 sam's and a mnk with no mages?

You want to do HNMs? 0-3hours per camp, but how often does an HNM pop 1st window compared to the many times it pops last window? Also, the way HNM's work, you are only actually "camping" 7 mins. out of those 3 hours? What to do in the other 2:53 minutes?

neocron :
Now lets discuss the assorted plugins for Windower. If you need to know everyone's TP at all times, your a control freak... pure and simple. If you can't trust the people you are doing an event with to report their TP, then something is wrong. And if your a RNG and you don't know the optimal distance from a mob to get max damage on ranged attacks, something is wrong. Using a distance plugin might have been excuseable back when S-E made the change... but that was almost a year ago. Any RNG who is serious about what they are doing already know the optimal distance. Hell... my RNG is level 10 and I know the optimal distance.

I noticed you were a BLM as well, TParty is priceless. It allows you to keep up with the sc partner's TP so that you can regen MP while they are building that TP or cast enfeebles and help cure and still be able to MB without worrying about casting at the wrong time. This is extremely important in long drawn out HNM fights because you will be asked to stun/heal/enfeeble/MB/logout/manage your MP. Knowing everyone's TP helps you to make fights more efficient. I have no experience with RNG, so I will leave that alone.

neocron :
Something else I want to bring up is LS reputation. Seems like every endgame shell on this server has a negative reputation. I've heard people say Osiris MPK's people. I've heard people say Emerald is comprised of a bunch of elitist d%cks. I've heard people say Spoondaggers uses bots/scripts. And who hasn't heard something bad about HighCouncil? I don't care how much of this is true or not... and I'm certainly not going to discuss it. I know plenty of people in the LS's I've mentioned so I know the truth (and lies) in some of these linkshells. But it does make one question the server's collective opinion of said endgame shells.

I don't want Tribunal to be cast in that light. I want people to think of Tribunal as a nice friendly endgame shell. And more importantly, I want Tribunal to be accepted as a nice alternative to what seems to have become a haven for RMT and third party programs. And I like I said before... what you do on your own time is your business. What you do as an individual has no impact on the working and image of an endgame shell. It's what you do while your with your endgame shell that has an impact.

No such thing as a nice endgame shell. You want to mind your own business and do the right thing? What happens when Osiris steals a mob from you? Pull your pants back up and tell them gg? Or talk shit to them and try to return the favor? Don't even think you can talk about things, that will never be the case no matter how calm you might be. You will be upset, your LS will be upset, and the other side won't reason with you most the time because they saw it happen differently than you did.

All endgame LS's will have a bad reputation no matter what. There will always be immature people who can't get in so they decide to make it seem like they were too good for the LS anyway. Or people that got kicked for whatever reason, so they talk shit and make up lies about the LS. Then you got the haters who just hate for no apparent reason but to hate. Are you going to sit there and try to convince everyone that your LS is not bad or not acknowledge them and continue doing what you do.

When someone doesn't like some in this game and try to insult them, in most cases, they throw around false accusations about RMT and Botting. Once you get a first impression of someone, its hard to change that. Shouldn't listen to people unless you see it with your own eyes and form your own opinions.

An LS is only as good as their leaders being able to be flexible and adjust to every situation. That's why you have respectable LS's like SpoonDaggers, Emerald, Flowers, Lullaby, and even Osiris. We all may dislike eachother at one point in the game due to conflicts arising, but most of the endgame LS leaders have a mutual respect for one another. Notice how I didn't mention High Council? Sgthill does not fall in the category of respectable LS leaders. Now watch him come in to this thread and tell me to fvck my mom. =

neocron :
1) Drops do not have job priority. That means the only thing you need to get that A. Abjuration: Hands as a BLM is the points. No having to wait for all the WHM's and RDM's in the shell to get the Abjuration first before you can get it. That right there seperates Tribunal from a great many Sky LS's.

BLM usually get priority on this. But I get your point =]

I am not trying to tell you how to run your shell or tell you to change your rules, do whatever it is that floats your boat. I am just offering some of my views from experience on the subject in hope that you take some in some of the information I gave you because you are going to have to deal with it eventually. I wish you the best of luck with your LS.

(I have way too much free time at work) =[

[neocron]

To open, thank you Bananaboy for the post. It was a pleasure reading your post (I mean that).

Moving on, I'd like to address the things you pointed out in your post.

After reading this, I realized that you might not have as much endgame experience as I thought you did at first. Endgame is all about waiting, waiting and more waiting. No matter what you are doing, you will always be waiting. So what are people to do when your sitting around waiting? Stare and try to make small talk with the LS? Not everyones that social. In sky, you will always have people that show up on time, and the majority show up late for whatever reason. You say the event starts at 6pm EST? They will head out at 6:05 EST with some BS excuse. You will wait for NMs in sky to pop, you will wait for other ls's to finish popping their gods, you will wait when people get lost in sky or die in the dumbest of spots. I understand you will allow a 30 minute grace period and then the event will start, but you will always not have enough to start without that person. Or the person running late is never a melee job, but a spoiled mage or bard (no offense, generalizing due to past experiences) in which you need the most. Wtf you gonna do with 5 drg's, 2 drk's, 7 nin's, 2 sam's and a mnk with no mages?

Oh I'm all too familiar with waiting around. It's unavoidable. However... what is the solution here? I don't think there is one to be honest short of letting people do as they want... which leads to a plethora of problems. More importantly, what about the people who aren't on PC? Is it OK to show preferential treatment to the PC users by allowing them to go surf the internet while the PS2 users stand around counting sheep?

You bring up a good point in regards to the waiting game... but that's just part of the endgame scene. How many times have you had someone not be on the ball when they were needed to be on the ball because they weren't paying attention to whats going on in-game? I've had it happen to me many times, both in endgame and in other things like XP parties.

And also one must consider the ramifications of being caught using Windower while doing a Tribunal event. Do you think a GM is going to care if so-n-so didn't want to stand around waiting so he/she decided to go surf the internet? Ultimately my line regarding Windower is the same as S-E's line... because I don't want anything to compromise the success of a run... be it Windower or asinine players.

As for waiting for people to show up, I won't wait for them. I do Limbus runs with Climhazzard that are supposed to start at 5pm PST... but rarely ever get started before 6:30pm-7:00pm PST because of waiting for people. And if ends up ticking people off having to wait. If one person makes or breaks a run, then something is wrong. I'm sorry... but that's my view on the matter. No single person is so important as to hold up everyone else because that person can't manage their time effectively.

I noticed you were a BLM as well, TParty is priceless. It allows you to keep up with the sc partner's TP so that you can regen MP while they are building that TP or cast enfeebles and help cure and still be able to MB without worrying about casting at the wrong time. This is extremely important in long drawn out HNM fights because you will be asked to stun/heal/enfeeble/MB/logout/manage your MP. Knowing everyone's TP helps you to make fights more efficient. I have no experience with RNG, so I will leave that alone.

I personally don't miss not being able to see everyone's TP at all times. I play on PS2 and as such, am forced to rely upon the communication of the people I play with. I have yet (knock on wood) to encounter a situation where I'm not efficient as a BLM. 75 levels of a job has given me the proper insight to play my job effictively due to being able to observe trends. I know how much TP each weapon type gives with each swing for example. I don't need a third party tool to do my job effectively.

Now my official line regarding this is: Third party programs are useful, but as long as S-E does not allow them, they are bad.

My personal opinion regarding this is: if you absolutely MUST use a third party tool to do your job, your pathetic and should seriously examine your choice of jobs.

And again, is a GM going to care if your only interested in improving your efficiency as a player? Probably not.

No such thing as a nice endgame shell. You want to mind your own business and do the right thing? What happens when Osiris steals a mob from you? Pull your pants back up and tell them gg? Or talk shit to them and try to return the favor? Don't even think you can talk about things, that will never be the case no matter how calm you might be. You will be upset, your LS will be upset, and the other side won't reason with you most the time because they saw it happen differently than you did.

All endgame LS's will have a bad reputation no matter what. There will always be immature people who can't get in so they decide to make it seem like they were too good for the LS anyway. Or people that got kicked for whatever reason, so they talk shit and make up lies about the LS. Then you got the haters who just hate for no apparent reason but to hate. Are you going to sit there and try to convince everyone that your LS is not bad or not acknowledge them and continue doing what you do.

When someone doesn't like some in this game and try to insult them, in most cases, they throw around false accusations about RMT and Botting. Once you get a first impression of someone, its hard to change that. Shouldn't listen to people unless you see it with your own eyes and form your own opinions.

Again, where is the middle ground? I remember a few months ago I was looking at endgame shells and no matter who I talked to, all endgame shells I was looking at joining were B A D. And this was the opinion from people who AREN'T active in the endgame scene. And that's the opinion I care about most. The opinions of other endgame shells don't concern me so much as the opinions of other players.

The way it stands now, when choosing an endgame shell, you make friends and you loose friends depending on which shell you join. When I applied to HighCouncil to play with some of my friends, I was told to leave my Sky LS. Some people on my friends list refused to speak to me. When I was removed from HighCouncil due to some unexpected drama, people who wanted nothing to do with me forgave me. Now don't get me started on HighCouncil. Despite the fact I have friends in that shell, my opinion is HighCouncil is not a good shell. I won't sling sh*t at HighCouncil... because it's not necessary. My opinions are my own.

I don't want Tribunal to be like that. I don't want people to endure that kind of nonsense. And the way to do that is to be fair and even-handed in all dealings. My responses here on recruiting threads are an example of this belief. Trust me when I say what I have responded in the past is not necessarily what I'd like to say. I view endgame LS's a lot like politics... and in politics you can't say what you would want to say (which is usually driven by short-thought emotion). You must weigh the pro's and con's of each action and word. Everything has an angle and running an endgame LS means playing a balancing game.

An LS is only as good as their leaders being able to be flexible and adjust to every situation. That's why you have respectable LS's like SpoonDaggers, Emerald, Flowers, Lullaby, and even Osiris. We all may dislike eachother at one point in the game due to conflicts arising, but most of the endgame LS leaders have a mutual respect for one another. Notice how I didn't mention High Council? Sgthill does not fall in the category of respectable LS leaders. Now watch him come in to this thread and tell me to fvck my mom. =

I disagree here. I feel an LS is only as good as it's members. Good leaders are invisible in that they don't shine above their members. Ultimately, a good leader is one who is able to manage the LS effictively and enable the members to achieve things. And it's those achievements that are the mark of a good LS. I firmly believe that a good LS is an LS where when the LS is mentioned, no single name is able to stand out. If I do my job right, people won't think of Tribunal as "Neo's Tribunal". They will think of it as just "Tribunal".

BLM usually get priority on this. But I get your point =]

Not usually. Most Sky LS's I'm familiar with give RDM and WHM priority over BLM on this paticular Abjuration. But in Sky LS's where BLM gets priority, how is that fair to the WHM's and RDM's? I feel every job can receive benefits from all items they can use and by removing job priority, I'm enabling people to explore these benefits for themselves (as opposed to being told the benefits from the getgo).

I am not trying to tell you how to run your shell or tell you to change your rules, do whatever it is that floats your boat. I am just offering some of my views from experience on the subject in hope that you take some in some of the information I gave you because you are going to have to deal with it eventually. I wish you the best of luck with your LS.

(I have way too much free time at work) =[

Oh trust me... I'm already having to deal with it. And I'd be lying if I said I knew 100% what I'm doing. A lot of this is learn as I go. All I can do is follow my gut and remember the ideals that I have established Tribunal on, which are:

- Fair Play
- Integrity
- Team Spirit

As long as I remain true to those ideals, I feel confident I won't end up in too dire of situations.

And yea, you do have too much time on your hands at work, but feel free to strike up a conversation with me here. It has been a pleasure reading your post and you have given me some things to consider.

[Nitecon]

Bananaboy :I admire your effort in starting a new endgame LS.

Agreed. Good luck to you Neocron, hope it all works out.

[flecha]

Nitecon :

Bananaboy :I admire your effort in starting a new endgame LS.

Agreed. Good luck to you Neocron, hope it all works out.

I second that. Too bad I'm sick of sky or I'd join your ls.

[Furiousangels]

flecha :
I second that. Too bad I'm sick of sky or I'd join your ls.

You're level 55 :con

[flecha]

Ah my sig, well that's a hint I never visit this god-forsaken place. Besides, noticed how I wrote BLK instead of BLM? Yep, those were my newb years. Anyways, Neocron deserves some recognition for trying to make a decent ls.

Flecha 75 RDM|75BLM with 100+ merits under my belt!

PS: Furious, weren't you with us in DH? ;<_<

/runs in tears back to Alla!

[Boshi]

neocron :

Bananaboy :After reading this, I realized that you might not have as much endgame experience as I thought you did at first. Endgame is all about waiting, waiting and more waiting. No matter what you are doing, you will always be waiting. So what are people to do when your sitting around waiting? Stare and try to make small talk with the LS? Not everyones that social. In sky, you will always have people that show up on time, and the majority show up late for whatever reason. You say the event starts at 6pm EST? They will head out at 6:05 EST with some BS excuse. You will wait for NMs in sky to pop, you will wait for other ls's to finish popping their gods, you will wait when people get lost in sky or die in the dumbest of spots. I understand you will allow a 30 minute grace period and then the event will start, but you will always not have enough to start without that person. Or the person running late is never a melee job, but a spoiled mage or bard (no offense, generalizing due to past experiences) in which you need the most. Wtf you gonna do with 5 drg's, 2 drk's, 7 nin's, 2 sam's and a mnk with no mages?

Oh I'm all too familiar with waiting around. It's unavoidable. However... what is the solution here? I don't think there is one to be honest short of letting people do as they want... which leads to a plethora of problems. More importantly, what about the people who aren't on PC? Is it OK to show preferential treatment to the PC users by allowing them to go surf the internet while the PS2 users stand around counting sheep?

You bring up a good point in regards to the waiting game... but that's just part of the endgame scene. How many times have you had someone not be on the ball when they were needed to be on the ball because they weren't paying attention to whats going on in-game? I've had it happen to me many times, both in endgame and in other things like XP parties.

And also one must consider the ramifications of being caught using Windower while doing a Tribunal event. Do you think a GM is going to care if so-n-so didn't want to stand around waiting so he/she decided to go surf the internet? Ultimately my line regarding Windower is the same as S-E's line... because I don't want anything to compromise the success of a run... be it Windower or asinine players.

As for waiting for people to show up, I won't wait for them. I do Limbus runs with Climhazzard that are supposed to start at 5pm PST... but rarely ever get started before 6:30pm-7:00pm PST because of waiting for people. And if ends up ticking people off having to wait. If one person makes or breaks a run, then something is wrong. I'm sorry... but that's my view on the matter. No single person is so important as to hold up everyone else because that person can't manage their time effectively.

You seem to be ingoring everything Banaboy had stated. There are also many events were you only need to focus for small spans of time, like Bananaboy stated. People will get bored, they'll go afk, not pay attention either way, you're acting like Windower is the only factor.

neocron :

Bananaboy :I noticed you were a BLM as well, TParty is priceless. It allows you to keep up with the sc partner's TP so that you can regen MP while they are building that TP or cast enfeebles and help cure and still be able to MB without worrying about casting at the wrong time. This is extremely important in long drawn out HNM fights because you will be asked to stun/heal/enfeeble/MB/logout/manage your MP. Knowing everyone's TP helps you to make fights more efficient. I have no experience with RNG, so I will leave that alone.

I personally don't miss not being able to see everyone's TP at all times. I play on PS2 and as such, am forced to rely upon the communication of the people I play with. I have yet (knock on wood) to encounter a situation where I'm not efficient as a BLM. 75 levels of a job has given me the proper insight to play my job effictively due to being able to observe trends. I know how much TP each weapon type gives with each swing for example. I don't need a third party tool to do my job effectively.

Now my official line regarding this is: Third party programs are useful, but as long as S-E does not allow them, they are bad.

My personal opinion regarding this is: if you absolutely MUST use a third party tool to do your job, your pathetic and should seriously examine your choice of jobs.

And again, is a GM going to care if your only interested in improving your efficiency as a player? Probably not.

Well first, I'm just going to restate, most of your pc members will be using it, and just lieing to you, you're not gonna stop it. Saying that ppl who you them suck is being blind, if you have a very good player, why not make him even more effective? He's not botting or anything. I myself am on PS2 and am the leader of an hnm/sky ls, and prefer to have members who have windower, because in a situation like hnm or god fights, you dont always have the time to go over everything with every single person before a SC, and even if you give 10 warning's in /p /l or w/e about the coming SC, there will always be someone who misses the notice. Having them know the user's tp at any time lets them be aware of the SC's much easier in very high-stress situations.

neocron :

Bananaboy :No such thing as a nice endgame shell. You want to mind your own business and do the right thing? What happens when Osiris steals a mob from you? Pull your pants back up and tell them gg? Or talk shit to them and try to return the favor? Don't even think you can talk about things, that will never be the case no matter how calm you might be. You will be upset, your LS will be upset, and the other side won't reason with you most the time because they saw it happen differently than you did.

All endgame LS's will have a bad reputation no matter what. There will always be immature people who can't get in so they decide to make it seem like they were too good for the LS anyway. Or people that got kicked for whatever reason, so they talk shit and make up lies about the LS. Then you got the haters who just hate for no apparent reason but to hate. Are you going to sit there and try to convince everyone that your LS is not bad or not acknowledge them and continue doing what you do.

When someone doesn't like some in this game and try to insult them, in most cases, they throw around false accusations about RMT and Botting. Once you get a first impression of someone, its hard to change that. Shouldn't listen to people unless you see it with your own eyes and form your own opinions.

Again, where is the middle ground? I remember a few months ago I was looking at endgame shells and no matter who I talked to, all endgame shells I was looking at joining were B A D. And this was the opinion from people who AREN'T active in the endgame scene. And that's the opinion I care about most. The opinions of other endgame shells don't concern me so much as the opinions of other players.

The way it stands now, when choosing an endgame shell, you make friends and you loose friends depending on which shell you join. When I applied to HighCouncil to play with some of my friends, I was told to leave my Sky LS. Some people on my friends list refused to speak to me. When I was removed from HighCouncil due to some unexpected drama, people who wanted nothing to do with me forgave me. Now don't get me started on HighCouncil. Despite the fact I have friends in that shell, my opinion is HighCouncil is not a good shell. I won't sling sh*t at HighCouncil... because it's not necessary. My opinions are my own.

I don't want Tribunal to be like that. I don't want people to endure that kind of nonsense. And the way to do that is to be fair and even-handed in all dealings. My responses here on recruiting threads are an example of this belief. Trust me when I say what I have responded in the past is not necessarily what I'd like to say. I view endgame LS's a lot like politics... and in politics you can't say what you would want to say (which is usually driven by short-thought emotion). You must weigh the pro's and con's of each action and word. Everything has an angle and running an endgame LS means playing a balancing game.

There is no way to perfectly play this "balancing game," no matter what, will always fall at ends. You can't apease anyone. If you think you're the first person to think like this, you're not, you can't keep everyone happy. Every descision you make, someone will be angry about it, it's just unavoidable.

neocron :

Bananaboy :An LS is only as good as their leaders being able to be flexible and adjust to every situation. That's why you have respectable LS's like SpoonDaggers, Emerald, Flowers, Lullaby, and even Osiris. We all may dislike eachother at one point in the game due to conflicts arising, but most of the endgame LS leaders have a mutual respect for one another. Notice how I didn't mention High Council? Sgthill does not fall in the category of respectable LS leaders. Now watch him come in to this thread and tell me to fvck my mom. =

I disagree here. I feel an LS is only as good as it's members. Good leaders are invisible in that they don't shine above their members. Ultimately, a good leader is one who is able to manage the LS effictively and enable the members to achieve things. And it's those achievements that are the mark of a good LS. I firmly believe that a good LS is an LS where when the LS is mentioned, no single name is able to stand out. If I do my job right, people won't think of Tribunal as "Neo's Tribunal". They will think of it as just "Tribunal".

I dont think Bananaboy was getting at that the members aren't a key part. But I must fully agree with Banana, the LS leader is the main part taht affects the LS's preformance, almost everything relies on that. You can have the best members, but a bad leader, and it's all worthless in the end.

Anyways, goodluck with the ls.

-Boshman.

[Furiousangels]

flecha :
PS: Furious, weren't you with us in DH? ;<_<

/runs in tears back to Alla!

Yep, I still have a pearl for it, back when you guys were doing Sky.

But thanks to my GMT time zone, you guys started sky at 3am my time so I never really got a chance to go. Now that I finished school, you guys turn it into a CoP LS! >.>

[neocron]

You seem to be ingoring everything Banaboy had stated. There are also many events were you only need to focus for small spans of time, like Bananaboy stated. People will get bored, they'll go afk, not pay attention either way, you're acting like Windower is the only factor.

Windower isn't the only factor... I never said it was. Please stop acting like some emo Allakhazam poster who only comprehends half of what is posted and then go on a rant because your missing the half that isn't comprehended.

Well first, I'm just going to restate, most of your pc members will be using it, and just lieing to you, you're not gonna stop it. Saying that ppl who you them suck is being blind, if you have a very good player, why not make him even more effective? He's not botting or anything. I myself am on PS2 and am the leader of an hnm/sky ls, and prefer to have members who have windower, because in a situation like hnm or god fights, you dont always have the time to go over everything with every single person before a SC, and even if you give 10 warning's in /p /l or w/e about the coming SC, there will always be someone who misses the notice. Having them know the user's tp at any time lets them be aware of the SC's much easier in very high-stress situations.

Ya well.... all I can say is if your willing to risk someone getting in trouble, then your treating your people like pawns on a chessboard.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Until S-E changes their stance on third party programs, I will NOT allow said programs to be used during Tribunal Runs. I won't ask people about it... because I'm sure that, like you say, they will lie about it. But if I catch them using it, they are GONE. No questions asked. Their pearl will be broken and they will be warped back to their home point immedietly.

There are absolutely NO compelling reasons to risk GM interraction. If you need Windower to be a better player, then you have no business being in Tribunal. I will not... let me repeat... WILL NOT condone the use of third party programs. Everyone in Tribunal WILL be on the same playing field and those that use third party programs had better not ever let it slip that they do.

I can't put it any clearer than that. Now can we please stop discussing this one point? If you don't agree with it... fine. But Boshi, your objection has been noted earlier in this thread. Repeating your stance just causes me to repeat my stance. We're never going to get anywhere. So just accept the fact that I'm choosing to run my LS differently than the way you run your LS and let's move forward from there, ok?

There is no way to perfectly play this "balancing game," no matter what, will always fall at ends. You can't apease anyone. If you think you're the first person to think like this, you're not, you can't keep everyone happy. Every descision you make, someone will be angry about it, it's just unavoidable.

Your absolutely right. But what do you expect me to do? Take a note out of your play book and tell people they can only get your help doing ZM8 and ZM12 if they join your Sky LS (which, btw, you tried to pull on me back in January).

I'm sorry... but blackmailing people isn't my idea of properly playing the "balancing game". That said, you'll forgive me if I don't pay much attention to what you say about this point. Now maybe I'm just holding a grudge here... but consider for a moment what might have happened in that scenario if my party and I HAD agreed to your "terms". There was discussion in the party of accepting the terms and then throwing your LS pearl away the moment we had gotten what we wanted. Now what stopped us from doing that?

Think on that for a moment....

I dont think Bananaboy was getting at that the members aren't a key part. But I must fully agree with Banana, the LS leader is the main part taht affects the LS's preformance, almost everything relies on that. You can have the best members, but a bad leader, and it's all worthless in the end.

No, Bananaboy wasn't getting at that at all. However, look at an LS like HighCouncil. I think we can all agree that Sgthill is without a doubt one of the worst LS leaders on the server. However, despite that, the LS still manages to do quite well. It gets influxes of new players and it maintains a pretty high roster. I like to think this is due to Sgthill playing a (relatively) minor role in the overall success of the LS. This is an instance where the members overshadow the leadership and that's what I'm aiming for. If Sgthill overshadowed it's members, do you think HighCouncil would still be around?

[Takophiliac]

LOL @ everyone doubting neocron.

I'm not very high in FFXI yet but then this isn't my first game either. Not my first try at leading and not my first try at leadign an MMO group.

I hear you loud and clear Neocron and i wish you the best of luck. Stick tight to your values and i think you will draw the group that will follow them with you. Ignore the naysayers and do your own thing. Since when were there a book of laws on how to play a game?

/cheer

[Tunaclam]

Just a background on me before i get started in case you arent familiar with me. I ran the sky aspect of HC for around 11 months until about 2 months ago when I recently stepped down due to personal issues with a new job. I would like to think we were pretty sucessfull at what we did. 15 Osodes and countless abj. and craft items obtained for members under my oversight.
Speaking from experience its not as easy as it sounds to organize a good crew of LOYAL people. Luckily for us, we have a great group of core members that remained with us thru thick and thin. That core allowed 116 (yes 116 lol) "Filler" members to go thru our team with little or no effect on the outcome of events. We basically gave everyone a chance regardless of job/experience when we started out. For whatever reason you WILL get people ("fillers") who use your linkshell for gear, items, whatever.. and leave, for another shell thus wasting your time training a new member on the navigation and strategy of sky or whatever it is you'll be doing. Thats part of the game, I think you are fooling yourself if you think everyone who joins your shell will never leave. It's a nice positive thought but its not reality. People change overnight (especially when they get a drop they want). HC has supplied many members with sky gear before they left for a KING/HNM linkshell that doesn't do sky much anymore (2 of them are on this thread). It's frustrating at first but I learned to accept it. Just keep your head up, try not to get frustrated and maintain a positive attitude and you will be sucessfull.
Lastly I gotta throw out a LOL @ all the HC bashing. The good part about the bashing is that its always a positive bashing, we dont get bashed for MPK or botting or anything illegal. I'm actually excited that people bash us all the time. I get a chuckle every time i read a post with HC in it. (means we are doing something right lol) But anyways, Good luck with your new linkshell neocron hope everything works out for you.

[Merly]

So does this mean you're not gonna be doing Limbus with us anymore?

[neocron]

Tunaclam - Yes Tunaclam... I'm familiar with who you are (as you are familiar with who I am). That said... what you say makes sense and I expect to encounter exactly what you describe. Like you say... it's a part of the game. I may not like it, but I'm not going to become discouraged by people coming in, getting what they want, then leaving. All I can really do is run the LS the way I feel an LS should be run and let player loyalty develop (or not develop) on an individual basis. And ya... I try not to negatively bash HC as a member-oriented LS. As an member-oriented LS, HC is very successful. HC does a lot of things right... moreso than what it does wrong as far as I'm concerned. My only gripe with HC isn't in it's members... but with it's leadership (specifically Sgthill). Anyway, thank you for your kind words and best wishes.

Merly - I still plan on doing Limbus with you all. As far as Tribunal Limbus runs go (if and when Tribunal ever branches out into that area), I plan on being seperated from that and having one of the officers run it. The same will apply to Jailors (though I will attend those runs... just won't organize/run them).

[Peggy]

I'd like to know how you are going to find out if your members are using a windower..

[Furiousangels]

Peggy :
I'd like to know how you are going to find out if your members are using a windower..

ask them lawl

[neocron]

Oh peggy.... please do yourself a favor and read the thread before asking a question. If your like FuriousAngel and can't be bothered to read, then please forgive me when I say "I'm not going to repeat what I've said before". The whole windower thing has been discussed into the ground and I don't feel it's necessary to drag it back out into the forefront for the few people who seem to lack reading comprehension skills.

If you want to know about Windower, read page 1 of this thread.

And Furious.... statements like that make me ashamed of the fact that we share the same Social LS. Let's not propegate futher discussion on a topic that was discussed into the ground.

[Peggy]

Interesting that you say you would have to trust people not to use windower. Trust people from Final Fantasy? The majority of which would steal all your money and gear without a second thought? Are we playing the same game here?

Creating rules that you can't keep isn't a very good sign for your linkshell's future.

[Furiousangels]

neocron :
And Furious.... statements like that make me ashamed of the fact that we share the same Social LS. Let's not propegate futher discussion on a topic that was discussed into the ground.

First of all, it was a joke. Me and Peggy are RL friends.

And secondly, same social ls?? I think you're getting me mixed up with someone else.

[Rustybollox]

And Furious.... statements like that make me ashamed of the fact that we share the same Social LS.

you phail at insults

[neocron]

Ahh my bad Furious... there's a guy in GobsMustDie named "Furiousangel"... I kinda figured he was you.

Creating rules that you can't keep isn't a very good sign for your linkshell's future.

I feel the same way about creating rules that are so restrictive that members can't even breathe without permission. As for the whole "take it on faith" issue... call me a humanitarian... I still have faith in things like "honor" and "integridity". The day I wake up and find I can't trust anyone is the day I become a social recluse and stop associating with people.

That day has not come... and for your information, there are a lot of people who play on our server who are trustworthy. For example, I was one of the BLM's that helped Zarchary get his Destroyers. I have never met Zarchary prior to this occasion and had no idea who he was. He sold the items from his drop and sent each BLM their share of the proceeds as promised when he could have easily kept the gil.

When I was a level 53 BLM (way back in the days of yore), a RDM who I did not know let me borrow his HQ Wind Staff for the Shadowlord fight. I could have easily kept the staff... but I returned it after the fight was over.

Two seperate instances where trust was a key factor.

I pity people who are so jaded that they have lost the ability to trust others. Especially in a socially-driven game like FFXI.