[Archibaldcrane]

Ok kids, been working on this for a little while - Inspired by: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=23560 I figured it would save a little headache and a bunch of random posts if we tried to put together something comprehensive regarding endgame gear setups.

I am positive I am missing a few pieces here, but beyond that I think it's pretty complete.

The Theory:
This is how I rated each piece. It might seem a little "off" at first, but when you look at how it applies to each piece, I think most will agree it works out pretty damn well. Of course, camp and food selections in merits, or specific HNMs might require some changes in your personal setup, but I feel this works very well as an overall guideline. The theory is as follows.

1 ACC or 1 ATK are each worth 1 point. One % of haste (or haste equivalent in dual wield+ or triple attack/double attack) = 5 points. In cases of ties, the piece with the most accuracy wins. There are a few pieces which add other bonuses to meleeing that are harder to quantify - mainly the large Subtle Blow+ on dragon harness, Store TP on rajas ring, and Crit+ on a few pieces. I did my best to find value for these things and keep it all in perspective.

Gear in order of best first, decending quality.

Equipment while meleeing:
Main: Mandau/Batardeau/Blau Dolch/P. Harpe/X's Knife/Adder Jambiya+1/Amir Jambiya/Jambiya+1/Adder Jambiya/Stylet/Behemoth Knife+1/Harpe/Magnet Knife

Offhand /war, /drk, /sam etc: Viking Shield/Strike Shield/Tatami Shield/Tariqah+1

Offhand /nin: X's Knife(with Mandau)/Blau Dolch/X's Knife(without Mandau)/Sirocco Kukri/Adder Jambiya+1/Batardeau/Stylet/Perseus's Harpe/Adder Jambiya/Amir Jambiya/Jambiya+1/Behemoth Knife+1/Misericorde +1/Magnet Knife

Ranged if pulling: Ziska's Crossbow/Velocity Bow+1/Staurobow+1/Armbrust/Staurobow (if pulling where acid bolts can proc) / [Trollbane / Mamoolbane / Combat Caster Boommerang+2 depending on area] / Lightning Bow+1

Ranged if not pulling: Fire Bomblet/Bomb Core/[Trollbane/Mamoolbane/Combat Caster Boommerang+2 depending on area] / Lightning Bow+1

Head: Walahra Turban/Skadi's Visor/Denali Bonnet/Homam Zucchetto/Pahluwan Qalansuwa/Optical Hat

Neck: Love Torque/Peacock Charm/Grand Temple Knight's Collar (depending on area)/Spectacles/Chivalrous Chain

Earring: Brutal Earring/Suppanoimi (/nin only)/Fenrir Earring (day only)/Merman's Earring/Ethreal Earring/Storm Loop/Hollow Earring

Body: Homam Corazza/Skadi's Cuirie/Dragon Harness+1/Assault Jerkin/Rapparee Harness/Rogue's Vest+1/Dragon Harness/Pahluwan Khazagand/Scorpion Harness+1/Scorpion Harness

Hands: Dusk Gloves+1/Homam Manopolas/Dusk Gloves/Skadi's Bazubands/Tarasque Mitts+1/Tarasque Mitts/Denali Wristbands/War Gloves+1/Pahluwan Dastanas

Rings: Mars's Ring/Divisor Ring (70 and 75 only)/Ulthalam's Ring/Toreador's Ring/Sniper ring +1/Rajas Ring/Sniper Ring/Woodsman Ring/Assailants Ring/Jaeger Ring

Back: Charger Mantle/Cerberus Mantle+1/Forager's Mantle/Amemet+1/Cerberus Mantle/Psilos Mantle/Amemet Mantle

Belt: Ninurta's Sash/Speed Belt/Swift Belt/Swordbelt+1/Lifebelt

Leggings: Skadi's Chausses/Homam Coasicles/Barbarossa's Zerehs/Dusk Trousers+1/Dusk Trousers/Bravo's Subligar/Pahluwan Seraweels

Feet: Homam Gambieras/Dusk Ledelsens+1/Dusk Ledelsens/Assassin's Poulaines+1/Assassin's Poulaines/Skadi's Jambeaux/Denali Gamashes/Pahluwan Crackows/War Boots+1/Dragon Leggings+1

Like I said, I have a feeling there is a piece or two I am missing here, and help in that area would be appreciated. If people want to make specific, math-supported arguments for certain pieces over others, that is what we are looking for. Thanks to Terraxia on Midgardsormr for editing help on this.

Working on a good way to make a weapon skill gear setup also, but it's so much harder due to the differences with SA/TA/unstacked WS, especially since Dancing Edge unstacked creates really...stupid gear optimizations. Any ideas here would be helpful - best I can figure out is to just make a SA+DE gear setup, and people can work from there.

Wearing the best of each piece, you will be meleeing in:
/nin (Assuming Mandau/Blau): [/other (Mandau/Viking) in brackets]
Accuracy +56.3ish (ish because of Love Torque) [+51.3ish]
Attack +97 [+103 during the day, 99 at night]
Haste +20%
Store TP +8
Subtle Blow +6
Double Attack rate +5%
Triple Attack rate +2.5%
Dual Wield rate + 5% [not applicable]

Interesting to note:
STR +0
DEX +5
Critical hit rate +0%

[divisortheory]

Err, Amir Jambiya kinda sucks, I would put an NQ Adder Jambiya above an Amir. DMG/Delay isn't the only factor to be considered.

Edit: Don't forget Divsior Ring and Aileron Mantle

[Archibaldcrane]

I'm inclined to do so, but I need more info on proc rate and amount of effect on Adder/+1 evasion down. Divisor ring added, thanks - Aileron Mantle doesn't really have enough "points" to make the list for any real reason - it's great for bolt landing but that's a whole other gear setup, which I may address at a later date.

[divisortheory]

You don't consider it good for an accuracy build? It's one of the only backpieces in the game with melee accuracy.

[Archibaldcrane]

Relative to it's counterparts, you'd be valuing accuracy at a 2.5:1 rate vs. attack. I can't think of a situation in which that would be a good idea, honestly, since you can add accuracy instead of attack at a better tradeoff rate in every single other slot. I could put it on the list I suppose after behemoth mantle+1 or something, but it's just getting kind of esoteric at that point.

[Eaglestrike]

Yeah, there is far too much attack on Forager's Mantle to justify a mere 6 accuracy over it. Usually I run around a 2:1 ratio for attack:accuracy, focusing more on accuracy but for a thief big boosts in attack in certain places are necessary to help us reach over 1.0 pDIF on a number of mobs (when without brd). I know on a lot of small-team work even with attack food (cheap stuff) I'm still under 1.0 pDIF and that hurts a lot because when you're under 1.0 you can really fall low but when you're over the line you'll almost always hit for dagger DMG or above.

[divisortheory]

Regarding the Adder Jambiya, a few people that have it say it procs a reasonable amount of the time. I have the ingredients to make one, but can't find a Bonecrafter with gold sub. Once I get one though I'm gonna try to put a number on the Evasion Down by using the standard /check test.

[Archibaldcrane]

Let me know if you do, it does seem very useful - I'm a star sapphire away from one myself (we have 3 sets of Khimaira materials now) but The Ashu Talif fight #1 is so goddamn hard. 0/2 on it now.

[Raze Dragmyr]

Missing Hecatomb gear?

[Spider-Dan]

This is the melee gear list, not WS.

Working on a good way to make a weapon skill gear setup also, but it's so much harder due to the differences with SA/TA/unstacked WS, especially since Dancing Edge unstacked creates really...stupid gear optimizations. Any ideas here would be helpful - best I can figure out is to just make a SA+DE gear setup, and people can work from there.

[divisortheory]

skadi's bazubands have 10 points (with a little STR and AGI mixed in so let's just say 15 points). Dusk Gloves have 20 points any way you slice it.

Dusk Gloves+1/Homam Manopolas/Dusk Gloves/Skadi's Bazubands/

IMO.

[Vic]

You forgot Mis +1 as a viable option for offhand dagger when /nin. Then again, you shouldn't be /nin anymore >.>

[Archibaldcrane]

divisortheory :
skadi's bazubands have 10 points (with a little STR and AGI mixed in so let's just say 15 points). Dusk Gloves have 20 points any way you slice it.

Dusk Gloves+1/Homam Manopolas/Dusk Gloves/Skadi's Bazubands/

IMO.

Thanks, totally missed that.

Vic :
You forgot Mis +1 as a viable option for offhand dagger when /nin.

Where would you recommend it goes? It has worse DPS than anything up there, but can slightly help WS damage. Maybe between Behe+1 and Magnet?

[treelo]

Earring: Brutal Earring/Suppanoimi (/nin only)/Fenrir Earring (day only)/Ethreal Earring/Hollow Earring/Merman's Earring

Despite the way the points are allocated, I'd say from a purely THF perspective, hollow > ethereal. +2 DEX and +3 ACC is surely a bit more useful overall than +5 Attk. ALSO, looking at other earrings there are only a few that give a half decent acc boost, and hardly any that DEX. On the other hand, earrings from lvl 50 (storm loop) upwards will give you the +5 Attk you gain from ethereal. So unless the mp gain goes crazy when you pop souleater, I'd say hollow > ethereal, more from an overall PoV as opposed to a wholly points based TP build.

[Spider-Dan]

From an overall PoV, picking Hollow is a really bad decision, IMO. (Suppanomimi decision ver. 2.0)

It really has nothing to do with the DD stats on either earring.

[Archibaldcrane]

treelo :

Earring: Brutal Earring/Suppanoimi (/nin only)/Fenrir Earring (day only)/Ethreal Earring/Hollow Earring/Merman's Earring

Despite the way the points are allocated, I'd say from a purely THF perspective, hollow > ethereal. +2 DEX and +3 ACC is surely a bit more useful overall than +5 Attk. ALSO, looking at other earrings there are only a few that give a half decent acc boost, and hardly any that DEX. On the other hand, earrings from lvl 50 (storm loop) upwards will give you the +5 Attk you gain from ethereal. So unless the mp gain goes crazy when you pop souleater, I'd say hollow > ethereal, more from an overall PoV as opposed to a wholly points based TP build.

I wrestled some with this, and from a pure points-position, Merman's earring wins. Saying that 2 DEX is > 2 atk while meleeing is a rough proposition, and would force a rethinking of many of the rest of the gear options. I wouldn't call choosing Hollow quite on the same level as not choosing Suppa, and for TP gain it really (and I don't like saying this) doesn't particularly matter whether you are wearing Merman/Coral/Hollow/Ethreal.

You know what, screw it. I made the points system for a reason, and we are only talking about meleeing here. I'm going to bump Merman's up - 1 ATK > 9 Evasion. There, I said it. Editing the list.

Wearing the best of each piece, you will be meleeing in:
/nin (Assuming Mandau/Blau): [/other (Mandau/Viking) in brackets]
Accuracy +56.3ish (ish because of Love Torque) [+51.3ish]
Attack +97 [+103 during the day, 99 at night]
Haste +20%
Store TP +8
Subtle Blow +6
Double Attack rate +5%
Triple Attack rate +2.5%
Dual Wield rate + 5% [not applicable]

Interesting to note:
STR +0
DEX +0
Critical hit rate +0%

How do we sticky stuff again?

[treelo]

Interesting to note:
STR +0

I think, this is where the whole points system falls down. While being a good idea, and worth having here for reference, it is more of a list of equipment useful for TPing in, rather than a "this is what you should melee in fools" thread. Even assuming with the above "top" gear and using Red Curry, that would put my STR at.... 64+7 (I think it's 64 including my STR merit). Hardly impressive. Regardless of what your formulae and p.Diddy (or w/e it is you all keep babbling on about, believe me, I have no fucking clue what any of it means) says, despite how incredibly cool I'd feel wearing all of that gear, I'd be cringing at the idea of only having +7STR, even just for melee.

A good mix of the above gear, along with a few modifications of your own is probably the way to go.

I wouldn't call choosing Hollow quite on the same level as not choosing Suppa, and for TP gain it really (and I don't like saying this) doesn't particularly matter whether you are wearing Merman/Coral/Hollow/Ethreal.

While I agree with what you are saying, I'd still say Hollow is the better choice between Ethereal/Hollow. Assuming you have a large selection of the above gear, yeah, the choice is pretty much irrelevant. But for upcoming THFs who are lacking Love Torques, Homam, etc, etc (unless they happen to have linkshells that let them lot that shit before they can equip it (couldn't resist >.> NO FRAMES PRZ, THIS IS A SENSIBLE THREAD)) the choice increasinlgy relevant.

How do we sticky stuff again?

We don't. "They" do.

[Histasius]

Corrected

Ranged if pulling: Leo Crossbow+1/Velocity Bow+1/Ziska's Crossbow/Velocity Bow/Staurobow+1/Staurobow (if pulling where acid bolts can proc) / Darts, [Trollbane / Mamoolbane / Combat Caster Boommerang+2 depending on area] / Lightning Bow+1

Bomb Core I'd place over Fire Bomblet if you're talking about 'best of'. We're not exactly like Dark Knights; they count on every hit, we make every hit count.

Rings: Mars's Ring/Divisor Ring (70 and 75 only)/Toreador's Ring/Sniper ring +1/Rajas Ring/Mighty Ring/Sniper Ring/Woodsman Ring/Assailants Ring/Jaeger Ring

Corrected. I'm assuming you're grading 1 Acc = 1 Att in the rings example. Essentially flawed, but will roll with that.

Feet: Homam Gambieras/Dusk Ledelsens+1/Dusk Ledelsens/Assassin's Poulaines+1=Assassin's Poulaines/Skadi's Jambeaux/Pahluwan Crackows/War Boots+1/Dragon Leggings+1

Corrected. +1Chr +1Enm does not affect melee damage.


By virtue of the grading scale..

1 ACC or 1 ATK are each worth 1 point. One % of haste (or haste equivalent in dual wield+ or triple attack/double attack) = 5 points. In cases of ties, the piece with the most accuracy wins.

which is obviously flawed if Quick Belt should be up on the 'best of belts' list. As well, deducing Haste equivalent of Triple Attack for TP gain is variable in consideration to the rest of the gear and merits, so it can't be surmised accurately with a blanket metric.


As well, the dagger choices you've selected... how did you do the grading, simple DPS? Adder Jambiya > Behemoth Knife+1 > X's Knife doesn't really work out on paper when you consider metrics such as Crit Rate into the equasion. Things such as Stylet > Adder Jambiya+1 > Perseus's Harpe make me stop and think to myself "WOAH HOLD UP, WTF?".

There are a few pieces which add other bonuses to meleeing that are harder to quantify - mainly the large Subtle Blow+ on dragon harness, Store TP on rajas

Subtle Blow has no affect on melee damage, and Store TP is both easily quantifiable/easily comparable.

[Sohza]

Edit: Wearing the best of each piece, you will be meleeing in:
/nin (Assuming Mandau/Blau): [/other (Mandau/Viking) in brackets]
Accuracy +56.3ish (ish because of Love Torque) [+51.3ish]
Attack +97 [+103 during the day, 99 at night]
Haste +20%
Store TP +8
Subtle Blow +6
Double Attack rate +5%
Triple Attack rate +2.5%
Dual Wield rate + 5% [not applicable]

Interesting to note:
STR +0
DEX +0
Critical hit rate +0%

I kinda have to say, this setup makes me cring a little inside. Even though this is just for TPing in I have to question the gears over all +'s and lack there of. Most endgame is just TP burn on stuff that hardly cons as IT and more ofthen then not is T-VT. Even with pucks I don't see needing +50 Acc, more around 40-45 should be substantial enough even if using Att food only. The lack of over all +str/dex is a little concerning even though you have 97-103 att listed. Looks as though the main focus is to push the hast/triple/double attack % also, which seems like a good thing but also seems a little overboard when you consider that your top line daggers are between 178-210 delay (assuming single weild).

For straight out TP gain it looks great, but I'm concerned about the actual parse data you'd end up with this for non-ws damage. I don't have some of the gear listed here, but if I did I would certainly give it a chance just to actually see how it performed, but I'm not very hopeful as I've seen how bad standard melee can die off if you just go straight out tp whore monger.

[divisortheory]

Archibaldcrane :
Wearing the best of each piece, you will be meleeing in:
/nin (Assuming Mandau/Blau): [/other (Mandau/Viking) in brackets]
Accuracy +56.3ish (ish because of Love Torque) [+51.3ish]
Attack +97 [+103 during the day, 99 at night]
Haste +20%
Store TP +8
Subtle Blow +6
Double Attack rate +5%
Triple Attack rate +2.5%
Dual Wield rate + 5% [not applicable]

Interesting to note:
STR +0
DEX +5
Critical hit rate +0%

Fixed. Don't forget the Love Torque has DEX on it.

In my own personal TP build, I have

STR+8 (because I think Charger's Mantle < Forager's, and I can't justify not using a Rajas on one finger)
DEX+5
Critical Hit Rate +0%

Regarding the whole STR while TPing thing though, there's a reason people joke about meleeing in STR rings. If you want TP get TP. The only reason I have any STR at all in my TP build is because I'm lucky enough that it comes as a package deal with a piece I'd probably already be wearing for TP anyway.