[pathwriter]

Oh dear, oh dear, someone who plays an online video game and posts about it is questioning what someone else does with their free time.

[Machazareel]

BG is starting to get Alla'd and it's not nearly as interesting to read anymore. I really wish that it didn't become so mainstream as it has. There were some truly awesome threads there throughout the years, though.

And Az, you seriously can't play the "don't you have a life?" card on an MMO forum.

[Tyche]

I wouldnt go as far as to say it's getting alla'd. However, the FFXI discussion is seriously lacking. Mostly in part because there is really nothing left in the game to be discussed extensively. When something profound is discovered, it usually breaks on BG. I sure do <3 <3 <3 the Gen Disc section though.

@Azerath...First off, lol @ playing the no-life card. The tests may not be anything profound for MNK, because a lot of damage comes from DoT, but it is great info for 2H jobs like DRG, DRK, and even THF who don't rely on DoT, but have the ability to put up explosive numbers during WS.

As far as the topic at hand, until I see testing as extensive as naga's that disptues or refutes his testing altogether (with a smaller margin of error), i'll keep faith on for WS. I never seen any testing for multi-hit WSs back when they were released, i just played sheep and followed what everyone else said. I'm all for tests that show how to better yourself, hell, it wasn't 2 years ago that 90% of end-game MNKs were rocking 2x Flame ring thinking they were the shit.

[milich]

haha, aurik, if you don't read the thread, i'd at least appreciate an opinion on my first post. if not about gorgets, just as to whether there's anything glaringly wrong with my method of comparing melee ACC and projected WS averages.

i have parse after parse where my accuracy is 87% or below, with my average WS dmg about 10x my dmg/hit.

KRT with red curry:
75battles
ACC:87.4%
dmg/hit:103.69
WS ave: 989.51

greater colibri:
193battles
ACC:89.67%
dmg/hit:67.29
WS ave:671.49

nyzul mamool:
231battles
ACC:69.29% (this is my "oops ate wrong food" pt)
dmg/hit:80.57
WS ave:684.33

nyzul mamool (drunk) :
78 battles
ACC: 71.91%
dmg/hit:66.19
WS ave: 548.58
(dmg seems to indicate i forgot to eat food due to drunkenness)

mamook:
72 battles
ACC: 79.98%
dmg/hit:73.48
WS ave: 663.67
(this one shows similarly high WS ACC, but notably mamook is nippers, mamook, and watch wyvern)

MMSP mamool:
74 battles
ACC: 87.26%
dmg/hit: 71.91
WS ave: 726.31

nyzul colibri:
86 battles
ACC: 78.56%
dmg/hit: 59.21
WS ave: 511.57

nyzul mamool:
97 battles
ACC: 85.03%
dmg/hit:58.41
WS ave: 573.45

----

.1 fTP and STR and VIT lolmods aren't going to give me a minimum of around 9:1 WSdmg to dmg/hit... at least i can't see how they would. it's not like i'm macroing on kirin's osode and life belt, just shadow gorget. my STR and VIT generally raises my base dmg on AF by 14. 14*8=112. is that explanation enough? well, if you look at my original post, i factored both lolmods and what pDIF do to them in projecting WS dmg, and it still looks like i averaged 7-8 hits with some apparently high pDIF rolls (or warcry and the stray "i didn't realize this was going to be analyzed data" boost).

speaking of boost, if i calculate it again assuming i boosted before every WS (i didn't) i get:

(53 + 10 + 14) * (593/330) = 134.69, + 7*93 = 785. well, now my projected WS dmg is higher than my actual (758 )... but it still looks like 7-8 hits even assuming that i boosted every one (again, i didn't, takes too long and don't want to get feather tickled).

---

this isn't so relevant to people with significantly better ACC gear than me (snipers+1, byakko's, SH+1, usukane-_-, or for sushi chompers... but for my AH/dynamis/sea meat setup, my WS is getting a boost from something. i feel like there's something to be learned from this, because if i'm wrong about WS gorgets, something is causing my AF to do unexpectedly high dmg. perhaps the AF ACC mod is actually huge, and people have been eyeballing under their actual performance for once? i don't know.

anyway, my NIN is 40, so no gimp h2h easy to find non ACC-capped mobs. once my 2 friends get to 70 i'll--it just hit me, i'll test shadow gorget on pentathrust on my SAM. no dmg equations or parses, just eyeballed TP return. one way or the other though, there's got to be an explanation for my parse numbers, because they're basically constant. either i'm misinterpreting the data (definitely possible) or my 1 macro swap is responsible (seems plausible-_-. if my own pentathrust tests confirm nagamaki's results, i'm still interested in explaining my AF dmg.

edit: edited out unintended emoticons.

[aurikan]

I agree with Tyche in that your experimental control is a bit lacking, making your conclusions (whatever they be) easily assailed.

[Azerath]

pathwriter :
Oh dear, oh dear, someone who plays an online video game and posts about it is questioning what someone else does with their free time.

Machazareel
And Az, you seriously can't play the "don't you have a life?" card on an MMO forum.

Maybe I didn't express myself clear enough. What I fail to understand is how people can have the time to worry and conduct various amounts of tests for something soooo incredibly minute within their game time. If it's a test regarding Gear A+B vs Gear A+C for DOT, yeah I can understand that. Even then, with common knowledge within the game now, Mnks should be WS'ing with almost identical gear to their Melee setup. All I was trying to ask is how can the difference of PCC/Gorget/Faith be something to sweat over let along spend time figuring out?

Mach, I joined this forum in 04 and I've posted what, 166 times now? From when I started FFXI I've probably only been there for a good half of the time. Which is why I fail to see why people are going into such detail and conducting tests for something that has little significance (as a Mnk, this -is- the Mnk forum and Naga is pretty much Mnk main).

Tyche
@Azerath...First off, lol @ playing the no-life card. The tests may not be anything profound for MNK, because a lot of damage comes from DoT, but it is great info for 2H jobs like DRG, DRK, and even THF who don't rely on DoT, but have the ability to put up explosive numbers during WS.

No-life card was not intended the way you think. I would assume THF concentrates on DoT just as much as WS, but that doesn't matter. I don't dissagree that the info -might- be great info for DRG and DRK, don't know much about their jobs (gear-wise) and still can't really see how such a small detail can benefit them so much. All these discussions going around about this same topic and all the concerns about it make people seem like they think it's allllll about WS'. I guess I just don't understand the hype and concern.

[pathwriter]

You're right, it isn't terribly important to Monks (though it is somewhat important to other jobs). But, seriously, how can you criticize someone for doing what they enjoy? A friend of mine was bemoaning the fact that baseball players now study physics and mathematics to improve their swing and "Oh, in the good old days, you just swung the bat - some were good at it and others weren't!" I'm a geek, I like crunching numbers from time to time. Compared to killing brain cells with cheap alcohol and bad music, it seems like a better expenditure of a boring Thursday evening.

[Azerath]

Well Path, it's just like me pointing out that people come on KI and act like total dicks and bash others just because they enjoy it (ex. "Ok WTF?" thread). In that thread you basically asked them why they do what they do and if they do it for nothing they have issues. You're right, they gain nothing arguing over a forum about a video game they play. Which brings me to -my- point. What do they gain from doing those tests over and over? Nothing. You guys tell me they just enjoy it. Cool. The retarded posters gain nothing from doing what they do, you ask them why they do it and I tell you they just enjoy it. See what I'm saying?

If you are trying to say I would critisize those baseball players for enhancing their (day-to-day RL) knowledge and education, you're wrong. I'd be all for it if they ("they" = people doing the indepth testings) were doing something similar in RL. To me, it seems like they are way too absorbed in the game to be caring sooooo much about their character's performance to such a minute degree, seems like they have, like you would say, major prioritizing problems. I personally would suggest taking some time away from the game if the only way to enjoy the game was to hit the same mobs X number of times for hours on end with no visible benefit/gain at the end.

Anyways, don't take me the wrong way, afterall I am playing the same game they are. I guess they just enjoy playing it in an overly extensive way.

Well I went back and read my first comment and it all came down to that one phrase, so here's a edited version that doesn't contain that phrase you guys dislike so much.

That's a lot of reading in those links, took me a while. It's nice and all that people are going through such tests but, don't they have something more exciting to do in-game? I mean they are going through such trouble for what? To find out how something so miniscule and insignificant. How much of our total damage is provided by our WS'? Is there such a significant difference between PCC/Faith/Gorget to make people spend countless hours performing boring tests? I would assume we all would say "No." Using either of the three will NOT make or break you in any situation.

[Yhelothur]

Azerath :

Yhelothur
Enjoy your unnecessary macro swap.

Get specs/PCC at least, jesus.

lol I find it so funny that you have to jump at every oppurtunity you get at letting people know you have a PCC. From making a thread, making several posts and making references that you have one. And didn't you only get the PCC cause your friend left you gil and X number of items? lol... *slow clap*

Yhelothur
Read the thread on BG. If you don't believe it, then get the hell outta here.

I noticed a HUGE difference with PCC

Haha I would wait to see more evidence to get a clear result and then make such a bold statement. But then again, there will always be people spouting "someone said this on BG, there for they are right!!!!!"

"HUGE" difference?? How much is "HUGE" care to post your findings?

In regards to having the PCC and being happy about it (heaven forbid I ask the other guys here for advice) what's so wrong with having been left with the money to get it? Sorry that I didn't spend 6 months farming it instead of going to work, living life outside of my room, etc. Besides, I didn't even say "At least I've got a PCC, n00b." You inferred that I was showing off my personal item, which was far from the point. The point was that you could have better for cheap (spectacles).

Secondly, I compared my own parses. Not many, just a couple. Previous to getting the PCC (amongst the rest of my WS gear to include N.Kote when on evasive mobs) accuracy wasn't that great. Barely breaking into the 80-83% range. After getting it and a few other pieces, my acc went up to 86-89%, and I could easily see the difference in weapon skills. That's one thing I could eyeball. They were much more consistent, and many many more full TP returns. I'm sorry my test wasn't enough for you, but the thread on BG showed me what was up, I took it into account, and it came through exactly correct as stated there.

[Wrish]

The point was that you could have better for cheap (spectacles).

Spectacles < Chivalrous Chain. The former is for impoverished SAM/RNG and marksmanship THFs.

Secondly, I compared my own parses. Not many, just a couple. Previous to getting the PCC (amongst the rest of my WS gear to include N.Kote when on evasive mobs) accuracy wasn't that great. Barely breaking into the 80-83% range. After getting it and a few other pieces, my acc went up to 86-89%, and I could easily see the difference in weapon skills. That's one thing I could eyeball.

What were you wearing prior to PCC, again? Spike Necklace?

I know moving from Chivalrous Chain to PCC does not boost 80% accuracy to 86%. That's from experience, newfound knowledge that accuracy increases linearly, and a real parser showing nominal 2 to 3% accuracy improvement over many samples. I know of no one who eyeballs a % connect figure within 2%, leaving alone placebo contamination.

the thread on BG showed me what was up, I took it into account, and it came through exactly correct as stated there.

I think the BG thread contains data to disprove your figures here.

Granting all that, people settle for either Chivalrous chain or PCC if they don't have Faith Torque/Gorget; the question here is whether the Gorget belongs there at all. Chivalrous chain and PCC otherwise don't parse more than 1-2% from each other - they can't single-handedly explain a 35% vs. 33% contribution in merit parties (which would be a 6% differential if you were wondering).

[milich]

god damn it i can't replicate nagamaki's test. i only have shadow gorget, and a) zanshin fucks everything up, so i can't penta on SAM, my base ACC on MNK is around 318 just from skill and DEX so no testing on anything i can reasonably control and live, and c) my DRG is only 70 and won't come out of retirement until my friends catch up-_-. my next gorget will be snow (for the "everyone agrees" bonus to gekko and yuki, though i'm not sure if anyone has shown whether or not martial weapon bonuses stack with the .1fTP--their main point is not missing non-SA WS anyway though), which has no multihit for me to test.

i may give it a try when DRG is 72, or if i'm bored just say fuck it and do steelshells on SAM (even if zanshin fucks it up, an ACC bonus on 5 hits should be at least apparent). orz.

of course, if nagamaki's WS gorget results ultimately get confirmed with the certainty of his "+ACC is a linear bonus" results, i'll still be interested in what phantom variables/misinterpretation of my own data are resulting in the ratios i've noted in my parses. nagamaki mentioned the desire to check ACC TP modifiers, so if he comes up with some startling results there, this thread will be cast in a new (very surprising) light.

[pathwriter]

Why not just get a mage friend and duo Decorative Weapons for a little while? Take off all your auxiliary Accuracy gear during your weaponskills so that you're reduced exclusively to H2H Skill and natural DEX.

[Yhelothur]

Wrish :

Secondly, I compared my own parses. Not many, just a couple. Previous to getting the PCC (amongst the rest of my WS gear to include N.Kote when on evasive mobs) accuracy wasn't that great. Barely breaking into the 80-83% range. After getting it and a few other pieces, my acc went up to 86-89%, and I could easily see the difference in weapon skills. That's one thing I could eyeball.

What were you wearing prior to PCC, again? Spike Necklace?

I know moving from Chivalrous Chain to PCC does not boost 80% accuracy to 86%. That's from experience, newfound knowledge that accuracy increases linearly, and a real parser showing nominal 2 to 3% accuracy improvement over many samples. I know of no one who eyeballs a % connect figure within 2%, leaving alone placebo contamination.

There, you actually going to read my damn post now wrish?

I love catching you in an obvious moment of stupidity. Of course 5 accuracy isn't going to boost me from 80% to 89%. When combined with every bit of acc gear available to me, however, you can make that kind of change.

Next time attempt to absorb what you read, ok Wrish?

And when I said the thread from BG showed the same results as my tests, I didn't mean it showed the same numbers. It showed the same type of difference, so by NO means is that thread supporting figures that will discredit my numbers. Notice, I also said it was between 80-83% to 86-89% acc? I'll let you in on a little secret...

It's because I added like thirty accuracy to my friggin setup for when I'm on evasive mobs.

[Tyche]

Im taking specs over chiv chain.

[Yhelothur]

Anyone that knows how to play this job would friggin take specs over chiv. chain.

lolWrish

Seriously, where's the extra usefulness in Chiv.Chain?

Oh wait, gotta be the STR. GG wrish. GG.

[Azerath]

Yhelothur
In regards to having the PCC and being happy about it (heaven forbid I ask the other guys here for advice) what's so wrong with having been left with the money to get it? Sorry that I didn't spend 6 months farming it instead of going to work, living life outside of my room, etc. Besides, I didn't even say "At least I've got a PCC, n00b." You inferred that I was showing off my personal item, which was far from the point. The point was that you could have better for cheap (spectacles).

Secondly, I compared my own parses. Not many, just a couple. Previous to getting the PCC (amongst the rest of my WS gear to include N.Kote when on evasive mobs) accuracy wasn't that great. Barely breaking into the 80-83% range. After getting it and a few other pieces, my acc went up to 86-89%, and I could easily see the difference in weapon skills. That's one thing I could eyeball. They were much more consistent, and many many more full TP returns. I'm sorry my test wasn't enough for you, but the thread on BG showed me what was up, I took it into account, and it came through exactly correct as stated there.

Well maybe Milich doesn't have the time like you and obviously doesn't have a friend to give him gil and X items. So telling him "get specs/PCC at least, jesus" doesn't really make sense to me.

Please note to yourself you said "After getting it and a few other pieces, my acc went up to 86-89%" so your difference is made up from several pieces rather than the one neck piece, as what people are discussing. So for you to claim PCC is the clear cut winner and it provides you with "HUGE" results, you are only basing that from before, when you had -30 ACC compared to now. So obviously you will notice this "HUGE" difference, but I highly doubt that you are gonna notice a world of difference between Gorget to PCC. It's obvious you understand what I'm saying from your last post to Wrish. So just to point out again your "HUGE" difference is the +30 acc now, NOT from PCC vs. Gorget.

[Wrish]

I read your post, Yhelothur, but the point of a comparison is only valid if you specify what was changed. Absent that BG thread, who's to say that the other gear changes including partial N.kote usage weren't responsible for 5% of your accuracy delta and the PCC, 1%? The mention of PCC there wouldn't be convincing Azerath or milich.

Im taking specs over chiv chain.

That would be just fine if specs didn't have -2 defense, leave easy mobs to paralyze you, and cost the same or more than C.Chain. Or is your server economy really different?


Milich, it's okay to parse without a neck piece. Call that control. Outside the parse, though, you do need a neckpiece for basic TP'ing. What have you been using?

[Yhelothur]

Specs are dirt cheap. Same price or less than chiv chain on Pandemonium. If I didn't have PCC, I'd wear those.

And wrish, read what you wrote. I know it's an example, but PCC won't be responsible for such a small improvement on it's own when N.Kote would only be giving me twice the extra accuracy that obtaining PCC did.

Just stop making excuses for yourselves and not wanting to purchase/camp it. Just say you can't afford it, or don't have the time, and this will go away.

Also Azerath, did you not notice where I said I work 40 hours a week? I don't have that kind of time. I don't even have a sky shell. You read the other thread where I was "bragging" about getting a free PCC, so you should have read it in there.

Give up you two.

Wrish, you yourself said that there's no need for pointless arguments in here, so why are you the focal point of so damned many?

[Azerath]

Yhelothur
Also Azerath, did you not notice where I said I work 40 hours a week? I don't have that kind of time. I don't even have a sky shell. You read the other thread where I was "bragging" about getting a free PCC, so you should have read it in there.

Give up you two.

Cool, you must be the only person that has a 8hr day job. I would suggest if you didn't like getting ragged on by people telling you to get X gear while not knowing how your RL schedule is, then don't do it to others. Makes sense right?

And yeah, even if you aren't purposely coming on here and attempting to "brag" you most certainly are. You came into this thread that was about Gorget vs. PCC and which of them yields the best results for AF (or Mnk ws'). You came in here claiming you have tested "Gorget vs. PCC" while true that you've used both, your test was a comparison of your previous experience with 30 less acc to now, with 30 more acc. That, in NO way, has any significance to the topic at hand, which is what I'm trying to point out. I personally, dislike the bandwagon people that read certain info from a well known site then proceed to use the information read like its 100% accurate, which then in a seperate thread make huge claims that it's in fact true.

[Yhelothur]

You only call it bandwagon because you don't have one.

Seriously, stop your whining. Show proof that it's wrong, or shut the hell up.

And with specs, you can do the assault for Chiv Chain, then sell that to buy a pair of specs. How hard is that?