[Azerath]

Haha wtf? Don't have one of what? PCC? I have one, I'm not even talking about that, but thanks again for bringing up your PCC .

Show you proof that the difference between Gorget and PCC is an insignificant difference and the time you need to invest in conducting flawless tests is not worthwhile? No thanks. You'd think by now, from reading my posts, that you could figure out that what I'm saying is the time and effort people put into this does nothing, because the result at the end doesn't do anything for you at all. Let me say it again, using either the Gorget or PCC will not make or break your character's performance in ANY situation, period.

[WWF_ultimatewarrior]

Azerath :
...the difference between Gorget and PCC is an insignificant difference...

And right there, you've lost all credibility.

[Machazareel]

It's all so clear now. Thank god you walked in here to show us the light. It's so utterly pointless for us to have a desire to do well in our chosen passtime.

[Azerath]

WWF_ultimatewarrior :

Azerath :
...the difference between Gorget and PCC is an insignificant difference...

And right there, you've lost all credibility.

So let's see, by saying that, would mean you disagree with me. So -you- think the difference between the two is a significant difference. But now, where were you when sea gorgets were being just obtained till now? Before people decided to find out how small the difference is, the sea Gorgets were preferred for WS'. Let's not forget that I'm talking about for MNKs only. So if you have felt this way all along where were you to prove people wrong or say otherwise?

[Tyche]

Azerath :

WWF_ultimatewarrior :

Azerath :
...the difference between Gorget and PCC is an insignificant difference...

And right there, you've lost all credibility.

So let's see, by saying that, would mean you disagree with me. So -you- think the difference between the two is a significant difference. But now, where were you when sea gorgets were being just obtained till now? Before people decided to find out how small the difference is, the sea Gorgets were preferred for WS'. Let's not forget that I'm talking about for MNKs only. So if you have felt this way all along where were you to prove people wrong or say otherwise?

If what is speculated is true, then losing 10ACC on 7 of 8 hits is a fairly significant difference. While i'll agree it's not gonna up your parse a dramatic amount or be anything game-breaking to use a static ACC neck, it does make a difference.

[milich]

i'm ignoring the back and forth about farming or whatever that VV is on about. if anyone of you take him seriously, i can't imagine why.

as for chiv.chan vs spectacles, the answer is simple. if the 3STR on chiv.chain raises your fSTR by 1 (mine does), it's better than the 2ACC on spectacles. if not, c.chain is just spectacles-1.

---

anyway, thank you path for the deco idea. i have two RDMs in mind, and a friend who'll loan PCC for the test, so i'll post some results here (and perhaps on BG) once i do the tests.

edit: dropping 10ACC (lowering your ACC% by 5) is going to be somewhat dramatic actually. 95%ACC yields a 66% chance of landing all 8 hits. 90%ACC yields a 43% chance. this is why it's so baffling that my WS numbers are high when i'm apparently dropping 2.5% effective ACC.

[Tyche]

How you come up with 10ACC lowering your ACC percentage by 5%? Without food, and including gear, i run at 368.1ACC. It'd take 18 ACC to drop 5% for me.

200+((99)*.9)+43+36

That's 200ACC from the first 200 skill, +89.1 from the 99 skill after 200, +43 from my 86 total DEX, +36 from +ACC gear (optical hat, shura togi, 2x sniper+1, and tiphia). I think i added all that shit correctly.

Edit: Am i correct in saying that you would have to be at 200 base skill with no ACC gear and 0DEX for 10ACC to account for 5% of your total ACC?

[milich]

tyche,

the thread you linked proves the long suspected relation of about 2ACC = 1ACC%. dropping 10 ACC drops 5 ACC%, even though it does not drop 5% of your ACC.

[pathwriter]

milich :
anyway, thank you path for the deco idea. i have two RDMs in mind, and a friend who'll loan PCC for the test, so i'll post some results here (and perhaps on BG) once i do the tests.

Just remember, use Raging Fists and count your TP return. You're going to be hard pressed to get a REALLY substantial sample size because it's boring (same reason why Naga only had 60 WS in his test), but every little bit helps.

[milich]

asuran fists onry (shadow gorget), but if i make sure to go as soon after 100%TP as possible it should be fine. if the guy i'm thinking about comes RDM with me, he'll conduct dancing edge tests simultaneously, which will both save time and help if AF results are strange (ie higher ACC than expected with and without gorget).

[Wrish]

Specs are dirt cheap. Same price or less than chiv chain on Pandemonium. If I didn't have PCC, I'd wear those.

Unless they're substantially less and I was that poor, I wouldn't pick them. Specs and PCC do nothing for your monk on <74 mobs; at least Chain adds 1-2 attack, 2-4 defense, and a sliver of storeTP. Chain also doesn't leave you wide open to paralysis. Lastly, Spectacles can't be considered Chain+1 in merit unless either your fSTR is capped but accuracy isn't, or you hunt a strict mob level. That's not likely the case in any merit party, and so fSTR is bound to change on some mobs at each camp from STR+3. Thus Chivalrous Chain ends up being slightly better in merit as well as more useful on lower mobs.

Chain comes from assault points; Spectacles drop directly from Assault as ??? neck. That's partly why they're so cheap. Previously, only source was a BCNM (and alternative was spike necklace). If he gets Chain from assault, he should definitely keep it. Specs are bad luck in comparison.

And wrish, read what you wrote. I know it's an example, but PCC won't be responsible for such a small improvement on it's own when N.Kote would only be giving me twice the extra accuracy that obtaining PCC did.

Hmm? I'd rather read what you wrote and you should too. PCC and "a few other pieces." N.kote is a PCC, and you say there's more.

Empirical evidence says the accuracy boost from Chain to PCC is 2.5% raw, or about 3% relative for a MNK. There's some loss from the STR-3, roughly 1.5% relative in my parses. You reported only on raw accuracy, and of the 6% boost, less than half should be from PCC. That's just not a very convincing way to back up the statement "I noticed a HUGE difference with PCC." See where the placebo effect got into you? Almost no one can eyeball a 2.5% change, as I said.

As for Azerath, I'm not supporting his pointing out you were bragging about PCC because I didn't notice you were bragging, lol. You don't have a haidate or BB - those are meaningful things to brag about. Individually they'll help several times more than the Chain -> PCC upgrade. If you want the math I'd show you.

But why are you flaming Azerath for not getting specs or PCC? Is he TP'ing in a gorget? If not, he already has an acceptable neck item to WS in. There's no widespread pressure on him to change his macro because (1) it does help at least the first hit, (2) WS damage is dwarfed by MNK DoT, and (3) the WS damage difference is minimal, as evidenced by no one even noticing it was the other way around.

if the guy i'm thinking about comes RDM with me

then his best dagger WS would be Evisceration, which exhibits wild swings in damage from critical chance.

[pathwriter]

Why on earth did you get a Shadow Gorget? I thought your Dragoon was 60-ish?

[milich]

works with gekko, AF, gimpulse drive, and pentathrust, also no plans of ever having access to rampage;. figured i'd finish out SAM big 3 with snow, and then eventually take care of other MNK WS. DK and RF seemed low priority, considering that anything big enough to SA DK i'd bring SAM to.

shadow's a waste of time unless you plan to have DRG SAM and MNK75;;. ...itself a redundant combo of jobs, but i like DDing;;, and PLD will be my 4th.

[Auraeon]

Wasn't it already proven that Gorgets give 10% accuracy on weapon skills?

[milich]

i'm going to be out of town for a few days, and my RDM friend is sick anyway. i'll necrobump this thread once i can get some testing done (unless people want to keep it at the top of the page arguing about 2ACCvs3STR). speaking of which, i said in an earlier post that my 3STR raises my fSTR by 1. that was a momentarily lapse, my 3STR on chiv.chain has a 3/4 chance of raising my fSTR by 1 just like anybody else's 3STR; it varies by mob VIT not by base STR. i'll take that chance over 2ACC.

anyway, at worst this thread will end up providing more support for nagamaki's claims against gorgets for multihit. at best, my shadow gorget works like i thought and my parses make sense. win/win, hopefully.

[Azerath]

Tyche
If what is speculated is true, then losing 10ACC on 7 of 8 hits is a fairly significant difference. While i'll agree it's not gonna up your parse a dramatic amount or be anything game-breaking to use a static ACC neck, it does make a difference.

lol see this completely baffles me. I have both, and have used both. The time that I'm on Mnk is 95% of my game time. And i'm sure that with allllllllll those people out there that have Mnk leveled, use their Mnk during Merits/Exp. Now you would think that with allll that time spent on Mnk, coupled with the belief that Gorget was/is the way to go for AF, people would post/complain about their issues landing a full AF.

How much time do you spend meritting/exping, or just using AF in general? I would think a decent amount, correct? Have you had -any- trouble at all landing consistent full AF on mobs outside of those select few high evasion mobs? I would wager your answer is, no. Which to me, means barely, if any significance at all. I mean come on, we read about Mnks all the time claiming they have +25 Acc + capped merits having no acc trouble. So if this "losing 10Acc on 7 of 8 hits" is true, I'm amazed that people can land consistent full AF with +15 Acc + merits. Before gorgets were released people used neck pieces from Grand Temple Knight's Collar/Specs/PCC. Then Gorgets were released and people found that they add X% of acc and damage. So people obviously took this new found info as a fact and switched to Gorget. Now if there is a "fairly significant difference" wouldn't we have noticed and said "fuck this p.o.s thing is broken or something."

I use Tiphia Sting, O.hat, Flame Gorget, Togi, Sniper's x2, Life, Shura Haidate. +49 Acc + Gorget + 7/8 merits. I have yet to experience this "fairly significant difference" from having used both Gorget and PCC. People are over thinking this way too much and making it such a huge deal because it's a "new" topic.

And Wrish, you need to pick up your reading comprehension skills. Also I have those pieces of gear you think I don't have, so I have zero clue as to why you mentioned that.

[Tyche]

Azerath :

Tyche
If what is speculated is true, then losing 10ACC on 7 of 8 hits is a fairly significant difference. While i'll agree it's not gonna up your parse a dramatic amount or be anything game-breaking to use a static ACC neck, it does make a difference.

lol see this completely baffles me. I have both, and have used both. The time that I'm on Mnk is 95% of my game time. And i'm sure that with allllllllll those people out there that have Mnk leveled, use their Mnk during Merits/Exp. Now you would think that with allll that time spent on Mnk, coupled with the belief that Gorget was/is the way to go for AF, people would post/complain about their issues landing a full AF.

How much time do you spend meritting/exping, or just using AF in general? I would think a decent amount, correct? Have you had -any- trouble at all landing consistent full AF on mobs outside of those select few high evasion mobs? I would wager your answer is, no. Which to me, means barely, if any significance at all. I mean come on, we read about Mnks all the time claiming they have +25 Acc + capped merits having no acc trouble. So if this "losing 10Acc on 7 of 8 hits" is true, I'm amazed that people can land consistent full AF with +15 Acc + merits. Before gorgets were released people used neck pieces from Grand Temple Knight's Collar/Specs/PCC. Then Gorgets were released and people found that they add X% of acc and damage. So people obviously took this new found info as a fact and switched to Gorget. Now if there is a "fairly significant difference" wouldn't we have noticed and said "fuck this p.o.s thing is broken or something."

I use Tiphia Sting, O.hat, Flame Gorget, Togi, Sniper's x2, Life, Shura Haidate. +49 Acc + Gorget + 7/8 merits. I have yet to experience this "fairly significant difference" from having used both Gorget and PCC. People are over thinking this way too much and making it such a huge deal because it's a "new" topic.

And Wrish, you need to pick up your reading comprehension skills. Also I have those pieces of gear you think I don't have, so I have zero clue as to why you mentioned that.

It's hard to "eyeball" a 5% difference. Not to mention that parsers don't parse your ACC of all your hits of AF. Best you can hope for is an around-about number by estimating with your WS average and m.hit average. Doesnt work so well if you kill the mob before all 8 hits go off. So it was never something you could just simply "parse" and find out, extensive testing is/was needed. So no, noone really noticed it. Asurans is such a "hit-and-miss" WS that it's hard to differentiate pure ACC loss, and just bad luck. Hell, by strict game mechanics, it's impossible to hit more than 2/3 15TP AFs. That's with 95% ACC, and that figure drops harder with every ACC% you lose. This goes without saying that in almost all merit camps, it's nigh impossible to hit that 95% threshhold. So therefore, you are usually looking at hitting a full AF TP return less than 50% of the time. I can't recall ever, ever, ever keeping track of my TP returns during a merit party, so no, i doubt I ever noticed. That doesn't change the fact that upping your overall ACC by about 5% is pretty big. If you do 200 AFs over the course of a party, that would account for 80 extra hits in your WS. If you are averaging 85damage a punch, that would account for nearly 7000 damage. The shit just adds up over time, even if it isn't really noticeable on each isolated case (at 5%, you'd notice an extra hit about 1 of every 2.5AFs). So maybe that shines some light on exactly why noone may have noticed it. If my math is wrong, sorry, forgive me. Not my best subject.

[Wrish]

Azerath, the part where I said someone did not have Haidate/BB to brag with was directed at Yhelothur. But I still wonder how you caught on to his PCC bragging, as PCC is pretty commonplace and closely related to the OP's question.

As Yhelothur was also the one to speak as if you didn't have PCC/Specs or something comparable ("You only call it bandwagon because you don't have one"), I posed a rhetorical question to him about whether you meleed in gorget because you supposedly lacked any accuracy neck piece. See how I was making his position look absurd?

In the part where Yhelothur made accuracy claims about PCC, I wanted him to clarify his testing method before bringing up the empirical data to show PCC over Chain is 2.5% accuracy boost. I don't like to treat symptoms as they repeat, rather nip a problem at its bud.

If you still feel I've misread, please lemme know.

It's hard to "eyeball" a 5% difference.

That is a closer reflection of the case between gorget and PCC than saying gorget would give you only 1/3 the chance of full AF TP (or something drastic). The latter amplifies small differences by picking a subset of the data, and it's fallacious because our eyes don't pick up on that subset (by noticing exact TP after AF).

The difference is even smaller than 5% because gorget does affect the first hit considerably (both acc. and atk.), and the strong effect of Focus combined with TP accuracy bonuses might mean PCC isn't doing anything on focused AFs.

[milich]

wrish,

orz, DE is lolthf only isn't it. he'll have to come THF and make his wife or the other friend i had in mind heal us;;.

tyche/azerath,

if you step back and just look at the numbers, it's clear that tyche is right here about whether or not the gorget/PCC difference will be "substantial" (i already mentioned what 95%->90%ACC does to your chances of 8hit AFs). if the gorgets don't work for AF (which i of course believe they do, at least presently) it's odd that no one has noticed that it didn't increase their WS...

but not that odd. people would have to be looking at parses (like i am;;;) and comparing average WS dmg in known camps with controlled ACC up or down effects (and food and other gear and such), or comparing WS numbers between their earlier neck piece parses and later, or even comparing melee average to WS average ratios (note though, that's not exactly what was fundamental about my first post; i used my melee average mainly to confirm that the colibri stats were right). this thread has gone on for 3 pages and no one's yet piped up with an easy way to deduce WS ACC from long parses, which is where you'd see that substantial dmg increase/decrease anyway.

why do they have to look at parses to see this substantial increase? well, because that 16%TP return you get when you just got your gorget says "OH SHIT IT WORKS!" (possible placebo, though i admit, if my gorget is a placebo it's a damn good one).

to illustrate, i parsed a party tonight where a MNK i partied with ate red curry while i ate hedgehog pie, and had a shura togi to my scorpion harness. his dmg/hit was 57.13, mine was 51.23, and his highest punch was 19 more than mine. you're not going to eyeball this difference in party; in fact, you might say (even after seeing just what i've mentioned from the parse) "damn, eating lesser ATT food and not wearing shura togi, my ATT is just about the same as his!" but was it? i landed 812 hits while he only landed 760, and my crit rate was 16.01%, while his was 15.53%, yet his total melee dmg was 47,203 while mine was 46,183. impossible to eyeball dmg variation adds up;;.

my more frequent and harder hitting WS "won" the parse, but that 6dmg gap in our dmg/hit is 6dmg more i could have if i had that togi and his PCC (would get same ACC i got with h.pie, only i could have eaten the superior red curry). i'm obviously doing something right, but he sure is too with those patently superior pieces of gear--gear whose superiority does pan out in the numbers after the party. i want to do well on my MNK, so i want to take those seemingly minor but actually substantial bonuses and add them up.

dropping hits on WS adds up (lots of stuff adds up). if the conclusions people are drawing from nagamaki's research are correct, we gorget asuran fisters are basically doing about a boost before WS better than people who wear nothing at all. 10ACC is going to make a big difference on that.

ramble ramble ramble. if you've at all been disgusted or bored reading this post, just skim for the posts with my name that seem to have test results in them, like i skim for posts on BG.

---

p.s. this would be an edit had KI not eaten my initial attempt at posting this. wrish is almost certainly right that gorget is usually superior to PCC when temple crown focus is up (as is c.chain, though to a considerably lesser degree).

i disagree (as rambled on above;;) that the ACC loss is being overstated if you use gorgets that don't work on AF. the parse i mentioned above was a pretty short party... in 31 battles i got 37 WS off (yeah trolls). 37*8=296. my total amount of melee swings was 973. all your AFs in a party constitute a substantial amount of swings to be saying "fuck it, i didn't need that ACC anyway" for.

from less of an epenis and more of a XP/hr standpoint, keeping your chance of landing all 8 hits high is important for taking out big chunks of dmg and getting that mob killed fast. in a pinch, i can have a 66%chance of landing that last hit and saving us an attack round (and xp chain) or a 43%chance. this is pretty intensely "well what if blablabla" but the thing is, big WS in one shot help, and missed hits add up DoTwise.

lolwot