[Cloudius]

Eat sushi if you miss so much and think that 20 acc is your savior.
Sub sam if you need TP fast, and Dark seal -> Abs-TP works too on HNMs/Gods.
That's my "logic" to you, Watkins.

[Watkins]

Subbing SAM on gods is terrible unless you're trying to sc more for the BLMS, but fuck them, it's all about SA + Ground Strike.


Anyway, whoooooooooooosh.

[Lordender]

I only use drk these days for kraken clubbing DL, JOL, KV, i did 3/3 muted soul, 3/3 darkseal, 5/5 souleater recast. Darkseal + drain 2 is > monks Mantra if you had a mnk buddy in the drk pt back pre-darkseal + drain II >.>

[Kirschy]

Just my own opinions and observations~

Group1:
5/5 Souleater Recast
5/5 Last Resort Recast
Group 2:
1/3 Dark Seal
2/3 Desperate Blows
3/3 Diabolic Eye

I have a strong Dark Magic build (and Dark Magic skill merits to back it up). I rarely get resisted by anything. In any situation where I am using Dark Seal, I'm not using it so often as to need Dark Seal recast to be reduced by a few mins. Having it unlocked and usable once every 15 mins is sufficient.

I honestly believe Diabolic eye is our strongest and best Group II merit. I find uses for it in almost everything I do.

The rest I threw into Desperate Blows because I don't think muted soul would be even slightly useful for anything I do. I rarely notice it.

[Nameless]

Ilean :

RoXno :
- Desesperate blows , for those 1°) want to have fun every 4-5min when they have good amount of haste
2°) want to have a decent zerg ability when no kclub access

The problem i have with all these pro-DB arguments is that "when they have good amount of haste" actually means "when they have shitload of haste"



I did the math to show you how even stacked with 50% haste and hasso, DB will only make a difference of 1.5 hits in 30 seconds for a 528 delay scythe. It's up to each of us to decide what to merit, i just wanna present people with realistic info instead of best case scenarios.

Like I said before, you are not capping DB for merit party or whatever unless you have apoc. It is for zerging stuff. And when zerging stuff, everyone go all out meaning you get SV march x 2 without a question. I don't see why is it so hard to understand. I didn't cap DB for merit party, did you actually merit DS for merit party? I mean we are talking about advance merit here, which are for hard stuff, and I will take anything I can get to help zerg down a mob. Also, I have asked how you get that 198 delay, I got 132 from my calculation, which makes a world's difference. What's in that video is a 95% haste drk and we see went pretty much hundred fist. So if you are saying simply stacking the haste and damage delay deduction and using that times your base delay isn't what it should be calculated, then you are wrong. 70% haste + hasso 10% + DB 15% = 95% = 26.4 delay if you have a 528 delay weapon, there is no other way around it.

[RoXno]

95% haste = 25.65 delay ( 513 base delay for apo ) => 0.4275 sec

Look at the numbers on top of Arthur's head , you dont see 2hit/sec ? the fact he does Catastrophe breaks the hit chains , when i do that i do only 1 catastrophe since haste last 30 sec as Last resort duration



Now there re really 2 schools in the DRK forum , the pro-DB , and the scepticals

just say me why its hard to get 50 haste..... 15 from spell , 11 from 1 march , 15 from stuff , 10 from hasso ... is that hard to get ??!

50 haste is like +4hits with DB => 1-1.5K every 5min or 4min

Maybe you dont like DB , np lol , but dont say its useless

And Kirschy , just say me when diabolic eye is really usefull for you

[Nameless]

Ilean, according to you, then the delay with supposely 95% haste is 119, calculated by 528 x 0.75 x 0.30, which is also as much as you can get as a drk with or without Apoc. And I certainly don't think the guy in that video had anything close to 119 delay. He was swinging at a delay approximately 25 to 30. Someone did the math and he did 15k damage in that frame. I don't think 119 delay can come close to that. Like I said, I know your point, but according to that video it proves that the haste stacks with delay reduction instead of calculating after delay reduction.

[Ilean]

Downloaded the Arthurs video and paid more attention to the chat log, looks like the extent of the delay reduction escaped me when i saw it back then (more like i didn't bother to try and understand what the jp lines meant).

OK i see where you guys are coming from, it seems that either hasso, db, or both don't work on delay in the same way dual wield and martial arts do (delay reduction applied first, then haste in a second stage).

So the guy had:
46% haste from march x2 with faerie piccolo
15% haste from spell
13% haste from visible gear

Which places him at the 70% haste cap, plus 10% haste from relic WS (which i read somewhere that breaks the 70% haste cap, need to verify this bad).

-80% delay so far, puts apoc delay at 102


At this point it isn't clear what's happening with hasso and DB:

-Both delay reduction: 76 delay (NOPE)

-Hasso delay reduction, DB haste: 23 delay (around 3 hits per second, MAYBE)

-Hasso haste, DB delay reduction: 43 delay (around 1.5 hits per second, NOPE)

-Both haste: Total haste becomes 105%, delay would be -26, there has to be a hard cap to delay which i'd estimate to be 20 (3 hits per second) from watching the video (MAYBE)

So at least DB is applied directly to delay.



Well, at the end DB will decrease delay by 79 for a 528 delay scythe, for 30 seconds. It's needed to reach the hundred scythes speed, along with BRD SP.



I still think it isn't worth it tho, as i don't get soul voice double march often, i rather have 15-20 accuracy (7%-10% more hit rate) for those times when you know you'll need it.

[Nameless]

From what I heard, Apoc haste of 10% doesn't break the 70% haste cap. However, I have no proof of that. But if you want to get that extra 10% haste, you can always go with haste belt, which is said to not count towards haste cap, tho not sure if it means the equip haste cap, which is 21%, or the overall haste cap, which is 70%.

[Ilean]

If cata haste doesn't break thru limit (really hard to test) then he had only 70% haste (and cata was pointless since he was capped at 70% just from spell, songs and gear), but it would mean that hasso behaves like haste too, since it would put him at 95% haste which equals 25 delay...


Hmmm...



Thinking on it, what dual wield and martial arts in common is that they lower TP gain accordingly, while DB and hasso don't, this would support the idea that they both act exactly like haste for delay purposes.

[Nameless]

Indeed, I think that makes sense if you look at it from the TP stand point.

[Ilean]

OK did the same calculations as above but assuming that cata haste doesn't break the 70% cap, as expected the only way to get more than 1 hit per second is if both hasso and DB act like haste (70 + 15 + 10).

So:

If cata haste breaks thru the 70% cap: DB acts like haste, hasso might act like haste too in which case there is a hard lower cap for delay of around 20.

If cata haste doesn't break thru the 70% cap: DB and hasso both act like haste.

[RoXno]

its what im saying since 3-4 months lol , cata or even haste belt dont go past the cap, hasso DB does

Edit :

Here s a new video : http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=E9-2Z-lyWAQ

forgot to add a song >.> + the quality is really bad.... it was better after compression but youtube made it bad ; ;

I didnt use Catastrophe , so i have 18 from stuff , haste spell , soul voice double march hasso and desesperate blows...

I dunno what happened but i was really slower than other time i tried it

so 2 option >.> : SE nerfed DB ( made it reduce the delay before applying haste ) or Catastrophe is needed and his haste go past the cap

My delay was around 60~ , which match to 88-89 haste

SE nerfing DB or modifying the delay cap in the last update wouldnt surprise me.... but then again , need more tests :x

[Taint]

Maybe Cata does go beyond 70% because I was swinging faster then that during limbus last night. (BRD 2hring every floor)

[UNCTGTG]

Here s a new video : http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=E9-2Z-lyWAQ

forgot to add a song >.> + the quality is really bad.... it was better after compression but youtube made it bad ; ;

I didnt use Catastrophe , so i have 18 from stuff , haste spell , soul voice double march hasso and desesperate blows...

I dunno what happened but i was really slower than other time i tried it

so 2 option >.> : SE nerfed DB ( made it reduce the delay before applying haste ) or Catastrophe is needed and his haste go past the cap

My delay was around 60~ , which match to 88-89 haste

SE nerfing DB or modifying the delay cap in the last update wouldnt surprise me.... but then again , need more tests :x

Not bad Roxno, just a tip for your WS's and videos don't change gear, just swing away. Your trying to get the haste factor from Cata and not the damage result. This video is actually 10x better then your last hehe.

Also Catastrophe does let you break the 70% cap.

Edit:

Ok from the 35second mark of engage, I counted 42 swings and 2 WSs in there in one minute and some change. I might be off by a swing or two or didn't see his misses because I was going by Xno hits the mob thing.

SO 42 swings at 179-200 damage (looks like) I can't see if any procs were in there.
2 WSs at 992 and 900+

Still very good damage.

Xno were u subbing /sam I take it.

So rounding 7518-8400 (no procs)
Two WSs 1800+ WS damage

Total = 9218 - 10200 (hard to see the damage but I did watch it many times and this is what I got out of it. Can;t see any procs ( 2x damage) and no Souleater, and missing one song.

Now if he has souleater on, and other song, he would easily get to that magical 14000+ damage.

Correct me if I am wrong Xno but it was just you and the brd? So basically you soloed that mob.

Edit number 28273: I am still working on my haste gear (15% right now) and merits to the max or I would attempt a video.

[RoXno]

i switched gear after last resort wear off

I wanted to show that even with tredecim scythe you could reach arthur's speed, but i guess you cant >.>

[Nameless]

Hmmm.. have you tried with haste belt? Perhaps it also breaks the 70%? But that 60 delay is good enough for me lol, looks like hundred fist and would be faster with Perdu Sickle.

[RoXno]

wait wait wait......


I just get something , we can see in the video the delay is 60~ 60 means 88 haste ok ?

i always though soul voice 2 march was 40% but its only 30....

then 18 stuff + 15 spell + 30 2 march SV + 10 hasso + 15 DB = ...wait ? 88 ?

and Rukenshin was saying "every job can do what you re doing....."

im gonna do same video with cata at start now, and we should count 47 hit or i dont remember how many i counted

and ok non apo owner cant do that >.> my apologies , you can reach delay 47 though , each % haste count :x

[UNCTGTG]

So let me get this straight for haste before I lose my mind.

Haste Caps for all things:

Haste spell: 15%
Gear: 22%
Double March: 22%? or SVDM: 30%
DB: 15%
Hasso: 10%
Catastrophe 10-15%

[Nameless]

Add in haste belt and we got a winner for non apoc owners.

15% spell + 30% march + Turban 5% + homam feet + leg 6% + homam glove or dusk glove 3% + haste belt 10% = 69% + hasso + DB = 94%. Good enough for me xD

Non apoc owner lose out on 1% but I can deal with that

PS: If I use subduer which is 444 delay with 94% haste I can get 26.64 delay Again, perhaps very very good too cuz I can spam spinning slash without worrying about losing HP due to SE + guillotine. Assuming 27 delay, which will double the attack of your video (again, that is a good video, keep making them xD), we got 82 hits. 82 hit is.... hmmm.... roughly 9 spinning slashs........ am I missing something or is this seem too good to be truth? And 82 hits will have 10% critical hit (6% + 4% merit)... and 10% of the 9 spinning slashs will be critical as well..... 15000 damage in 1 min xD?