[aurikan]

By popular demand, splitting drama from the L&G thread.

The ball is in your court, Ashke

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ashke :

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aurikan :

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ashke :
It has nothing to do w/ them being JP, and everything to do w/ them holding HNMs until assistance from other LS's arrived for the kill.

Standard operating procedure for all HNMLSes these days. Holding NMs is legal if you're waiting for reinforcements to arrive. See for example Eminence claiming KB with 3 yesterday.

I never said anything about it's legality, holding is just as legal as KS'ing from a TOS or GM standpoint. I'm not in Eminence, nor would I speak on their behalf, but I believe I'm not alone in the opinion that claiming while your *own* LS is en route is a tad different than claiming when your entire linkshell lacks the ability to kill and have to call in *other* LS's after thirty minutes of failure. (It's also KB, but I digress.)

And yet you're happy to come to SML dynamis; haven't you learned yet that the pearl above someone's head doesn't mean much?

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aurikan :

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ashke :It has nothing to do w/ them being JP, and everything to do w/ them CFH'ing Aspid *earlier that very day.*

Accidental.

Didn't he get a 24-hour temp ban? If it was accidental then my apologies for the insinuation, but from what others were saying it was intentional, and a temp ban would support that claim. More info, please.

It was accidental. Getting banned was a result of a retarded GM and an even more retarded person who called a GM when there was no wrongdoing.

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aurikan :

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ashke :You say KS is against the LS policy, but apparently violating every other social norm of the HNM community is A-OK.

So what social norm are they violating?

Don't claim if you're not even going to *engage* the MOB (Donaldallen)? Don't team up with other LS's (Remake calling in SML BLMs @ Fafnir)? Wipe/hand-off if things go sour rather than BTD/CFH (see above if incorrect)?

*All HNMLSes these days would gladly claim with low members and hold for reinforcements. For example, Eminence claimed KB with 3 yesterday and eventually got the kill.
*There is nothing inherently wrong with team-ups. For example, Remedy utilized Eminence members to stabilize their ally on their first JoL when they were wiping. Remedy and Eminence have teamed up for Tiamat at least 3 times in recent history.
*You're wrong about the CFH thing. Do your research before jumping in with both feet. Eminence accidentally CFH'd Aspid only a few weeks ago, mistakes happen.

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aurikan :

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ashke :The end result of this is that they got served a cold dish of social justice by Couga/Salvatore.

No, they got served a cold dish of dickhead by Couga. I'm disappointed that Remedy leaders couldn't bother to make right this obvious wrong, but whatever, it's Couga.

Eh, you're disappointed in admins for not discipling a member for a perceived breach of ethics for something he did on his own time (we were @ tier 2 jailers)

Are you saying it's OK for Remedy members to break Remedy rules, as long as they aren't at a Remedy event? Couga basically pulled a DBlock, but since you hate Remake, that's magically OK for you.

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I'm disappointed in SML for teaming up w/ Super-Ralph after all the talk about botting

SML did no such thing. Don't ascribe the actions of a few to the intent of the linkshell. Once you kick the botters out of your linkshell you can have an opinion on who I shouldn't help due to a sketchy history with bots.

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backing Ariestas after all the discourse on RMT.

Just because he and I are in agreement doesn't mean I am or am not backing him.

[selits]

aurikan :
Are you saying it's OK for Remedy members to break Remedy rules, as long as they aren't at a Remedy event? Couga basically pulled a DBlock, but since you hate Remake, that's magically OK for you.

Which rule from Remedy did Couga break?

aurikan :SML did no such thing. Don't ascribe the actions of a few to the intent of the linkshell. Once you kick the botters out of your linkshell you can have an opinion on who I shouldn't help due to a sketchy history with bots.

Give me a list of the people you know for a fact bot in Remedy.

[splynk]

someone sparknote all the events that happened, including CFH's of aspid, who teamed up with who on cerb, what blms helped what shell with fafnir, and most importantly, who the fuck is remake?

[Palo_Asura]

I agree with you on a few points.

1.) Team-ups are fine. Remedy and every other linkshell has teamed up in the past.
2.) Holding, while discouraging, is fine. Remedy and every other linkshell has held an enemy for a period.
3.) Calling a GM on a Call for Help is spiteful and childish.
4.) Remedy "ground rules" do apply everywhere.

I disagree, or think that you haven't considered, these points:
1.) Spamming on a claimed HNM has been the rule for over a year.
2.) Based on the above, KSing is not a Remedy "ground rule". Remedy only has like 4 total ground rules.

A few months ago, Remedy claimed Cerberus with approximately 10 members. I missed stun at 18% and a GoH landed. We still had members alive, but we were struggling. Remake took claim when it went yellow. We understood. They went along with the 2007 principle that yellow is fair game. A similar situation has happened with Manifestos, and many other linkshells at Ceberus, Khimaira, and other HNM camps. If the event was morally questionable, then the principle in itself is morally questionable - a principle to which Remake had no issue adhering when it was in their benefit. I do not buy that Remake did not understand how HNMs work now in days. Same way you and I have a tough time believing that any linkshell is without its botters, cheaters, and scum, my intuition tells me that Remake had to understand a principle they had previously followed.

As for Remedy's Officers celebrating such an event, it is the personal choice of a Remedy Officer to evaluate the past crimes of Remake's more prominent members and judge whether their history enhances a common occurance to a more lol-worthy event. There is no standard he/she is required to follow. Remedy's systems are member-driven, including kills that where accomplished with no administrative presence; Officers are more managerial, honoring the systems but rarely forcing direction. Couga's Cerberus kill was a kill by a Remedy Member. It made news. It was funny because a 66 Ninja solo-shotted Cerberus. It may be more funny if you hate some people in Remake - a fact I don't doubt is relevant to some of Remedy's members.

[aurikan]

selits :

aurikan :
Are you saying it's OK for Remedy members to break Remedy rules, as long as they aren't at a Remedy event? Couga basically pulled a DBlock, but since you hate Remake, that's magically OK for you.

Which rule from Remedy did Couga break?

I assume your linkshell has rules against unprovoked KSing, and I do recall something about "asshatery" [sic] on your main page, but correct me if this has changed and your linkshell encourages KSing and asshattery.

aurikan :SML did no such thing. Don't ascribe the actions of a few to the intent of the linkshell. Once you kick the botters out of your linkshell you can have an opinion on who I shouldn't help due to a sketchy history with bots.

Give me a list of the people you know for a fact bot in Remedy.

I wish I had one, I'd send it to you. The fact remains that since Remedy is a large king-camping HNMLS, there will be some members who feel the need to bot. Feel free to deny it, but Palo and I discussed this very topic at length yesterday.



edit: Palo ninja'd a response. Ladies and gentlemen, start your dictionaries.

2.) Based on the above, KSing is not [prohibited by Remedy]

News to me, I'll keep that in mind.

[Rittik]

This is hardly KI worthy.

Couga killed an unclaimed mob, and didn't break any of the game rules to do it. Nothing wrong with that.

[Palo_Asura]

If you define provoked as returning an action done to you, then Remedy was provoked. This doesn't make Remake's actions immoral. They did what every linkshell does in these situations. Couga followed suit.

[aurikan]

Rittik :
This is hardly KI worthy.

Couga killed an unclaimed mob, and didn't break any of the game rules to do it. Nothing wrong with that.

Spinning Fafnir with spiders is legal under game rules, are you encouraging that too?

Palo :
If you define provoked as returning an action done to you, then Remedy was provoked.

By your own admission, Remedy wasn't even present at Cerberus. How, then, were they provoked?

[Palo_Asura]

By a prior Cerberus where Remedy had claim go yellow without a wipe (in fact, having more than 4 members alive) and Remake took claim. That is a provoke to apply the same principles to them as they applied to us - a principle that is now the server norm.

EDIT:

There's a reason why Remedy, Tribe, Eminence, etc. do not cry "KS". Think how long it's been since a KS was a dramatic event on its own right. If Remedy gets "KSd" and calls foul, then you and others have all the power to call hypocrisy. This event changes nothing.

[Confuse]

this thread needs more efucks.... where is Eliise? :con

[CougaAsura]

BING BONG

[aurikan]

Palo_Asura :
By a prior Cerberus where Remedy had claim go yellow without a wipe (in fact, having more than 4 members alive) and Remake took claim. That is a provoke to apply the same principles to them as they applied to us - a principle that is now the server norm.

It's not being provoked when your whole ally is in sea. Couga saw the chance to be a dick and he took it; that's Couga for ya. Again, by your own admission, KS is a fact of life at king camps now, so being KSed after struggling/partially wiping isn't provocation, it's just business as usual.

Obviously I was misinformed in thinking that your linkshell frowned upon senseless dickery like what Couga did. That doesn't mean I'm less disappointed in your leadership for not only passing up a huge opportunity to make amends, but openly encourage and perpetuate such senseless dickery.

[CougaAsura]

at least my dickery is bigger now

[aurikan]

hueg like xbox

[Vanburace]

selits :
Give me a list of the people you know for a fact bot in Remedy.

I botted. As you can see I claimed a lot.

[Lordwafik]

All of you need a big hug.

Not from me though, I'm all out of hugs.

[Palo_Asura]

aurikan :

Palo_Asura :
By a prior Cerberus where Remedy had claim go yellow without a wipe (in fact, having more than 4 members alive) and Remake took claim. That is a provoke to apply the same principles to them as they applied to us - a principle that is now the server norm.

It's not being provoked when your whole ally is in sea. Couga saw the chance to be a dick and he took it; that's Couga for ya. Again, by your own admission, KS is a fact of life at king camps now, so being KSed after struggling/partially wiping isn't provocation, it's just business as usual.

Obviously I was misinformed in thinking that your linkshell frowned upon senseless dickery like what Couga did. That doesn't mean I'm less disappointed in your leadership for not only passing up a huge opportunity to make amends, but openly encourage and perpetuate such senseless dickery.

That dickery is the norm. They claimed our yellow Cerberus, and a member from our linkshell did the same. It was as senseless as when any other linkshell claims a mob that comes unclaimed. It's how end-game competition is, and Remedy has no obligation to be above principles that have been, and will be, applied to us. I'm sorry that our highground plateaus, and I hope that you make the same evaluations on all administrations that go by the same principles.

As always, I love any chance to debate with you, but I really don't agree with your claims. We're also going roundabout and rehashing the same concepts. Any one is welcomed to draw their own conclusions from the stated arguments, and if any administrator in Remake wants to talk to me in private, feel free to use PMs or /tells. Thanks.

[Coephoros]

My wife KSed my beer last night.

Check this shit out... had to settle for Yuengling cause we were out of Guinness, and I do admit that Yuengling is pure girl beer. But I'm sitting there, about 1/2 finished with it, we're playing Gin, I get up to go to the potty, and when I come back the bottle is empty. I'm like "WTF?" and she was all like "It was fair game."

I called BS, I mean, I was just in the bathroom ffs.

I had to get another beer. Lame.

[Mufasta]

Was doing this incredibly late, but just to clear some things up...

aurikan :

ashke :You say KS is against the LS policy, but apparently violating every other social norm of the HNM community is A-OK.

So what social norm are they violating?

Don't claim if you're not even going to *engage* the MOB (Donaldallen)? Don't team up with other LS's (Remake calling in SML BLMs @ Fafnir)? Wipe/hand-off if things go sour rather than BTD/CFH (see above if incorrect)?

*All HNMLSes these days would gladly claim with low members and hold for reinforcements. For example, Eminence claimed KB with 3 yesterday and eventually got the kill.
*There is nothing inherently wrong with team-ups. For example, Remedy utilized Eminence members to stabilize their ally on their first JoL when they were wiping. Remedy and Eminence have teamed up for Tiamat at least 3 times in recent history.
*You're wrong about the CFH thing. Do your research before jumping in with both feet. Eminence accidentally CFH'd Aspid only a few weeks ago, mistakes happen.

* KB didn't quite go down like that. We claimed with 3, someone died and claim was lost, so Lavitz claimed. We ended up getting it back from them when some meteors landed and killed it. When you hold an HNM, it's generally because you do not have enough to kill at the moment. When you do hold him with enough to kill (like Empire with Tiamat or Remake with Fafnir) people are going to ridicule you for it.
*Remedy only had Soup and I helping them directly. Any other help was just via raises from people watching.
*Hasn't been three Tiamats that I know of. Only the one where Empire got jailed and Beliash got a pair of Herald's gaiters and the one where I won a lot for Emi on the Wyrm Horn after.
*Definately agree with you about the CFH and GM call though

Sorry, not much to do with the thread, but I cannot stand it when a poster tells someone else to check their facts when their own are shaky at best.

[aurikan]

Mufasta :
Was doing this incredibly late, but just to clear some things up...
* KB didn't quite go down like that. We claimed with 3, someone died and claim was lost ... We ended up getting it back from them ... and killed it.

Exactly what I said: Eminence claimed with 3 and eventually got the kill.

*Remedy only had Soup and I helping them directly. Any other help was just via raises from people watching.

Exactly what I said, Remedy utilized Eminence members to stabilize the ally when all their tanks were down and their ally was in trouble.

*Hasn't been three Tiamats that I know of. Only the one where Empire got jailed and Beliash got a pair of Herald's gaiters and the one where I won a lot for Emi on the Wyrm Horn after.

According to Remedy's site news as of Aug 5, 2007 it was 3. From their main site:
After three claims and three kills teaming up with Eminence, Remedy finally went out and claimed its very own Tiamat.

Sorry, not much to do with the thread, but I cannot stand it when a poster tells someone else to check their facts when their own are shaky at best.

Praytell, exactly which of my facts are shaky?