[Crispleaf]

Unfortunately support classes NEED refresh ... Other wise theres really no point in inviting one.

I could say summoners are a support class and they don't have refresh...

But I'd just be proving your point :blush

and about the sneak attack thing.... is sneak attack an instantanious melee attack that stacks with multi-hit traits and multi-hit weapons, yet is INDEPENDANT FROM WEAPON DELAY?

can you say 'derka'?

I didn't realize that because I didn't know the definition of the word "free" includes "an instantanious melee attack that stacks with multi-hit traits and multi-hit weapons, yet is INDEPENDANT FROM WEAPON DELAY"

...that this proves that I'm a terrorist.

Sneak attack is ... Not by any means a free melee hit.... just a guaranteed melee hit... huge difference.

Guaranteed melee hits aren't free?

Let my people go!

[Varizen]

It's ignorance to say a support class MUST have refresh. BLU is usually a Melee, but they can fit the role of support without refresh. As can SMN. That's the problem. People are to dependent on certain effects. Sure Refresh helps. But another thing a support can do is attempt to minimize mp consumption to begin with by limiting Damage to a tank (Earthen Ward + Noctoshield + Ecliptic Howl) or upping the damage done so the monster dies faster.

[Yoona]

Varizen :
It's ignorance to say a support class MUST have refresh. BLU is usually a Melee, but they can fit the role of support without refresh. As can SMN. That's the problem. People are to dependent on certain effects. Sure Refresh helps. But another thing a support can do is attempt to minimize mp consumption to begin with by limiting Damage to a tank (Earthen Ward + Noctoshield + Ecliptic Howl) or upping the damage done so the monster dies faster.

Ok but how popular are these jobs for parties? SMN isn't invited to exp for their support abilities. They're invited for their /WHM and large MP pool. BLU is invited as a DD job.

[Varizen]

Actually, I don't know how backwards you guy's servers are, but on Leviathan SMNs do see invites for Support. Atleast at about 40+ if you have Fenrir. I've partied with many a SMN that was invited for support. I've invited SMNs for support. I've even been invited for support. But yes. SMN is invited a lot to main heal. But they're invited to support as well. You're in a certain mind set like many players and aren't willing to try a set up without refresh. I've had parties in the 40-60 range without refresh that did awesome. Refresh is nice, but people treat it like crack. No point in playing if you don't have it. With /NIN and the fact BLMs don't party as much, you can have a party that's lacking on Mages due to the lack of healing. That's where you get a SMN. Ecliptic Howl and the other SMN buffs, and you're set. Then the SMN just tosses out a cure here and there and a few DD BPs.

[Yoona]

Varizen :
Actually, I don't know how backwards you guy's servers are, but on Leviathan SMNs do see invites for Support. Atleast at about 40+ if you have Fenrir. I've partied with many a SMN that was invited for support. I've invited SMNs for support. I've even been invited for support. But yes. SMN is invited a lot to main heal. But they're invited to support as well. You're in a certain mind set like many players and aren't willing to try a set up without refresh. I've had parties in the 40-60 range without refresh that did awesome. Refresh is nice, but people treat it like crack. No point in playing if you don't have it. With /NIN and the fact BLMs don't party as much, you can have a party that's lacking on Mages due to the lack of healing. That's where you get a SMN. Ecliptic Howl and the other SMN buffs, and you're set. Then the SMN just tosses out a cure here and there and a few DD BPs.

I'm not saying that SMN isn't ever invited for support. Be honest tho, when you're making a party what do you look for first? BRDs CORs, and RDMs, or a SMN? I mean sure if there isn't another support job available then sure SMN works. Its been a long time since I lvled SMN to 75, but when I leveled it 90% of my invites were for me to main heal. If I wasn't main healing I felt useless because I could only provide one buff, or damage blood pact per min. This was of course pre-2 blood pact update. I'm not saying that SMN doesn't work as a support job, I'm simply stating that since others are better, SMN will not be invited over a BRD or COR as support.

[MIR The Great]

Actually, I don't know how backwards you guy's servers are, but on Leviathan SMNs do see invites for Support. Atleast at about 40+ if you have Fenrir. I've partied with many a SMN that was invited for support. I've invited SMNs for support. I've even been invited for support. But yes. SMN is invited a lot to main heal. But they're invited to support as well. You're in a certain mind set like many players and aren't willing to try a set up without refresh. I've had parties in the 40-60 range without refresh that did awesome. Refresh is nice, but people treat it like crack. No point in playing if you don't have it. With /NIN and the fact BLMs don't party as much, you can have a party that's lacking on Mages due to the lack of healing. That's where you get a SMN. Ecliptic Howl and the other SMN buffs, and you're set. Then the SMN just tosses out a cure here and there and a few DD BPs.

Frankly the basic party has no slots for two support classes, you need a tank a healer a support job and 3 DD.

You maybe can give up one of the 3 DD expecially if the tank is a NIN with good DD setup (but still at low level isn't really going to do much), but that wouldn't really be the best option.

Not like i wouldn't party with a SMN as Support job, but frankly if i could avoid it and rather have 3 powerful DD instead, yeah i would go for that, sorry.

On a side note, you mention a party with lack of healing. what does that mean? No WHM? Then the SMN is automatically the main healer, not just a support job. Of course SMN supports, but that also goes for WHM! Bar spells, Protect Shell and Haste are all supportive magics, but that doesn't change the fact that WHM main role is healer, and SMN main role when a WHM is not a around is healer.

Oh yet again, if really i had a RDM WHM or BRD WHM already i'd invite a SMN more as a DD job, than as a support job.

[Papoose]

Banggugyangu :
That is the description from the official site.

The only conclusions you can reasonably come to from this description are:

1: A dancer uses some type of dancing.
2: Their dances "weave forbidden magicks".

It doesn't specify what said "forbidden magicks" actually do to the enemies or the players that are targetted.


I could come up with just as vague of a description for any job... BLM for example


"With their formidable scrolls, these mages cast spells upon themselves and their enemies, producing results rivaling even the most powerful sorcerous cants. blah blah blah 2nd sentence"

This states:

1: BLMs use spells
2: BLMs have scrolls

doesn't say anything about how the job actually playes.... speculation is DUMB... wait a month or 2... get some REAL confirmation... then speculate your heart out based on the ACTUAL information...


*edit*
P.S. Interesting tidbit... Based on the majority of definitions from dictionary.com, the 'magicks' that dancers will use are more of a real type of magick than the 'magic' that all current mages use... Simply, the majority of all the definitions for 'magic' either directly state, or strongly hint toward a type of illusion. Seems kinda funny to me.

*/edit*

I'm pobably wrong on the whole nuking bit, but it's pretty obvious they're going to be another DD/Buffer job.

Regardless of that. saying speculation is dumb is, well, dumb.

You can easily speculate what the job is going to be, especially since it has some history in the FF series. SE usually pulls some traits/abilities from what the job did in previous FF series and fits that in FFXI. You can't pin-point exactly what the job is going to be, but you can easily get an idea of it.

I'm not a huge fan of the FF series, so I don't exactly know what a Dancer did/was. Doing a quick search online, I came up with this:

Prerequisite Classes: Geomancer/Lancer

Basic Skills:
Witch Hunt - Causes MP damage
Wiznaibus - Causes MP damage
Slow Dance - Lower's enemy's speed
Polka Polka - Lower's physical attack
Disillusion - Lower's magic attack
Namless Dance - Causes various status ailments

Basic Abilities:
Fly - Leap over enemies and obstacles
Jump - Increases characters jump elevation
A Save - Raises characters attack power
Brave - Raises character's Brave level

I speculate this job is going to be another De/buffer.

/end

[Crispleaf]

Varizen :
It's ignorance to say a support class MUST have refresh. BLU is usually a Melee, but they can fit the role of support without refresh. As can SMN. That's the problem. People are to dependent on certain effects. Sure Refresh helps. But another thing a support can do is attempt to minimize mp consumption to begin with by limiting Damage to a tank (Earthen Ward + Noctoshield + Ecliptic Howl) or upping the damage done so the monster dies faster.

The trouble is, Corsairs, Bards, and Red Mages aren't (really) limited by mp to perform their support tasks. Summoner is a support job that in turn requires mp support... So, you would begin with a Corsair, Bard, or Red Mage... and then you'd have the question, "Does bringing in a summoner make enough of a difference when I already have a support job?"

Summoner enhancements are nice... but I don't think they exceed the threshold of being nice enough when they are limited by mp, short range, and a minute timer.

That said, a dancer could possibly overcome these limitations. If it's similar to the bard job at all, they wouldn't have an mp limitation or a restrictive timer.

[Banggugyangu]

Crispleaf :

Sneak attack is ... Not by any means a free melee hit.... just a guaranteed melee hit... huge difference.

Guaranteed melee hits aren't free?

Let my people go!

Dictionary.com's listing for "free"

11. provided without, or not subject to, a charge or payment: free parking; a free sample.

I merely took the definition I was referencing for my original post.

In this case, the charge to be considered would be the delay of your weapon. In this situation, sneak attack STILL REQUIRES you to wait on the delay of your weapon, and when the hit lands, your delay STILL resets at which point you must wait again. If SE did what the other person requested *I don't even remember who it was now*, then there would be new JAs available for each job that are fundamentally identicle to jump and high jump.

Jump and high jump both deal a physical attack. Everything with this attack is considered identically to any other physical attack you would be using at under the same conditions with 1 exception. This attack is free and independant from the delay of your weapon... They are executed regardless of the current progress of the delay of your weapon and do not effect the current progress of the delay of your weapon.

In this sense, it can be said that Jump and High Jump are executed in a manner that is without, and not subject to a charge or payment on the delay of your current weapon. Hence: Jump and High Jump are both free physical attacks.

Sneak attack however... still 'requiring payment' upon the delay of the weapon you are weilding, and still requiring a wait prior to the following attack, which is equal to the delay of your weapon, cannot be considered free.


Of course this is speaking metaphorically... I hope it doesn't confuse you... reliable =/= free....

a good analogy would be this:

You buy a very expensive car, that is guaranteed to never break down. This car is by no means free, but is 100% reliable.
You are given a car that might not make it through the night. This car is free, however it's not exactly 100% reliable.

[Crispleaf]

Banggugyangu :
Of course this is speaking metaphorically... I hope it doesn't confuse you... reliable =/= free....

You take yourself too seriously.

Speaking metaphorically, a good analogy would be this:

"I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you've said has bounced off of me and is stuck to you."

So stop being a mentally challenged terrorist and give up already

[Varizen]

I'm just trying to back ya up here Crisp

It really depends who's available when you're making a party though. I'm of the opinion that it's retarded to NOT party just because you don't have a refresher. The XP could be slower, but you're getting a lot more than you could have. You just have to rely on everyone knowing how to play their jobs. The trick is if you can't get a refresh, you should in turn attempt to minimize your magic users. Summoner fits in well cause starting around the 40's, they can minimize the damage to the tank to nil if it's a NIN tank. PLD tank doesn't work quite as well for this, and now you just have a SMN main healer. PLD requires a WHM without a refresher, NIN doesn't. I used to do parties like this a lot when I exped SMN. I specifically remember a party in Gustav Tunnel at the Gob camp where Drachenlox pops where we were doing 5-7k an hour with no refresh. I had the Luxury of a New moon when that happened of course. And that was when we only had Blood Pact. Not Rage and Ward.

Basically what I'm saying is if you plan the party strategically, you can make it work with SMN support and no refresh. It's just a matter of being willing to try it. If your party sucks it's not gonna workout though, but when does anything work out in a crappy party? You're right that the lengths are short though. I wouldn't mind a buff extension. Cause when you're doing support, you're just recasting the same 3 Wards over and over.

[Banggugyangu]

Crispleaf :

Banggugyangu :
Of course this is speaking metaphorically... I hope it doesn't confuse you... reliable =/= free....

You take yourself too seriously.

Speaking metaphorically, a good analogy would be this:

"I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you've said has bounced off of me and is stuck to you."

So stop being a mentally challenged terrorist and give up already

now I see that I've been trying to explain something to a 12 year old... This also explains why the only witty comeback you've brought up is "Stop being a terrorist."

and the metaphor in my previous post was the comparison of weapon delay and the price of an object. I wasn't trying to confuse you... but apparently I did.

[Varizen]

It seems I've missed some posts challenging me (I don't mean this in an arrogant way, I just mean you make good points that don't agree with me). I somewhat answered to them in my response to Crisp. But when I make a party, the 1st thing I type is /sea all xx-yy inv not /sea all xx-yy refresher job. If there is what I think is the makings of a party, I go with it. And If there's a SMN, and that's the only support, I'll take'em. It's true I'll probably take a refresher if available, but more than anything, that's seriously to quite the bitching of people that won't party without one.

Second... Alright... I don't even know what you are Crisp are arguing over Bang, but at this point you guys are just tossing back and forth the personal insults. I know from 1st hand experience she pulls out the personal insults a bit to fast and all that. And accusing someone of being a terrorist is a bit over the line. But you're probably not going to get through to her.

But Crisp. This is a public forum. You need to watch what you say. I know I've got a short temper, and I go off on people easy, but don't say racially insensitive crap. Cause someone is going to find a way to take it the wrong way and then you've got a whole 'nother issue on your hands. Due to the current mindset of people, you should know who's going to be offended by this. And you don't know who you're arguing with on the internets. Your insults need to be ambiguous.

[Crispleaf]

Varizen :
But Crisp. This is a public forum. You need to watch what you say.

Listen, I was just tossing back the insults Bang had been insinuating of me up to this point. I don't normally make it personal.

I'm just fed up with the outlandish statements Bang was willing to make in order to be "right" even when he's clearly being unreasonable about it. Calling me a dim-witted terrorist because I didn't accept his extremely narrow use of the word "free" as though it were readily apparent is both preposterous and ridiculous. I realize Bang was using a racial slur by saying 'derka,' but I only magnified it to reveal him to be the nazi he apparently is.

First, Bang, if I am a terrorist, feel free to call the DHS on me. But, mind you, they are a humorless lot and you'd probably face some "quality time" in a federal prison for wasting their time.

Second, I think it's plain to see that I am articulate and I can construct a coherent argument whenever I choose. The fact that you cannot concede that the word "free" has several uses that would have readily fit my definition and not just yours only shows you have the same intellectual depravity of someone who denies evolution in favor of creationism.

Third, this is a waste of time. Who cares about this argument? This is a complete waste of time to everyone who wants to talk about dancers, not what a "free melee hit" really means. Did you really have to expound over and over how superior you are to god in order to make your point?

So once again, I implore you, give this up, okay?

[Varizen]

I did not realize Derka was a racial slur, so I see your reasoning. Second if that is the case, Bang needs to take my lecture to heart as well.

[Banggugyangu]

Crispleaf :

Varizen :
But Crisp. This is a public forum. You need to watch what you say.

Listen, I was just tossing back the insults Bang had been insinuating of me up to this point. I don't normally make it personal.

I'm just fed up with the outlandish statements Bang was willing to make in order to be "right" even when he's clearly being unreasonable about it. Calling me a dim-witted terrorist because I didn't accept his extremely narrow use of the word "free" as though it were readily apparent is both preposterous and ridiculous. I realize Bang was using a racial slur by saying 'derka,' but I only magnified it to reveal him to be the nazi he apparently is.

First, Bang, if I am a terrorist, feel free to call the DHS on me. But, mind you, they are a humorless lot and you'd probably face some "quality time" in a federal prison for wasting their time.

Second, I think it's plain to see that I am articulate and I can construct a coherent argument whenever I choose. The fact that you cannot concede that the word "free" has several uses that would have readily fit my definition and not just yours only shows you have the same intellectual depravity of someone who denies evolution in favor of creationism.

Third, this is a waste of time. Who cares about this argument? This is a complete waste of time to everyone who wants to talk about dancers, not what a "free melee hit" really means. Did you really have to expound over and over how superior you are to god in order to make your point?

So once again, I implore you, give this up, okay?

ok, so I've never known 'derka' to be taken as a racial slur... I'll give that up to myself not looking it up in the past. I've merely heard it used solely to insult one's ignorance. as in "derka derka der /droolononeself" so I'm sorry if you took that as me calling you a terrorist.... cuz that is not the case...

2ndly, bring up one of the definitions of the word "free" that would mean "guaranteed" and i'll admit that you are correct in assuming that I meant guaranteed instead of "without cost".


*edit* insisting that your interpretation of one's sentence should be definitively revered as correct despite a legitimate use of the words in the original person's statement is arrogant and foolish.

[Yoona]

Back on topic. I think its gonna be a debuffer/DD.

[Varizen]

I say Debuffer/support/DD. Who knows if the Support will affect the party or not, but they do say their spells will affect at least the Dancer, Yoona