[nefarious.lover]

Crutch.

lol.


You say this about a spell that takes timing and practice to master the proper use of.


Compared to what? Counterstance?


Yes, this ability that lasts 5 minutes, with a 5 minute recast...

So much harder to use than utsu.


lmfao.


Hay watch me voke and hit the mob and ws, this takes so much more skill than utsusemi.

[MonkeyKat]

You say this about a spell that takes timing and practice to master the proper use of.

No, it's not a crutch for melees. They're just trying to make sure they stay alive and you can't blame them for that when they're stuck partying with crappy mages who don't know how to efficiently heal a non-/nin DD or blood-tank.

It's a crutch for the mages. They don't learn how to be an extremely efficient healer. The majority of them are too lazy to learn all the details of what their job is capable of.

The one time I joined a party as mnk/war without my BF's whm, I got kicked because the whm didn't want to have to pay attention. He explicitly said so. He wasn't running out of mp. We had whm+rdm+brd. He had Noble's, Sanction, and /smn. That's 9mp/tick refresh. He had all the +hMP gear he could have, too. We were getting Chain #5 easy and the only reason we couldn't kill fast enough to go higher is we had a PLD/WAR in tank gear (who didn't seem to be making any effort to actually tank) and a sam/thf pre-2h buff. But we were still geting constant Chain #5 with no delay between pulls. He was just too lazy to pay attention and do his job, and he actually knew how to do it.


I'm not entirely against making one's job easier, but seriously. People whine about meriting and exping being so boring, yet they refuse to do anything that could actually make it more interesting.

[Icywave]

Constantly curing a suicidal MNK/war is nothing interesting.

All your PTs require so much healing (Regen III, Cure V, and occasionally Cure III just so you can Counterance ?)
and they are all poorly buffed and has poor pulling power (you are making the other 2 mage your curing bot, leave BRD alone to do the pull)

Mages don't just idle there when they got no one to cure, you know that ?
By being able to protect yourself and not lose HP like every 5 secs, you are giving mages opportunities to do other tasks.

In a 3/nin RDM BRD COR PT, or 3/nin RDM BRD BRD PT, all the backlines got the freedom and time to go out and pull, because there is no needy melees.
Horde Lullaby>Sleep>SleepII>Foe Lullaby>Light shot>Horde Lullaby... nonestop
the crowd control is excellent, the buffing is excellent, the damage is excellent, and the healing is minimum.
Inviting BLM or SMN for the sake of equal opportunity is very noble of you, and I applaude you for that.
I do it too sometimes, but I won't go that far blinding my eye saying the setup is as good as other ultimate setups on the table.

The meripo PT has got to the point that Pulling > Buffing > Healing > Damage dealing.
When was the last time your chain ends because PT can't do enough damage ? When was the last time your chain ends because you can't get enough mobs?
By you going /war and put yourself in a situation where mages have to keep eyes on you constantly, you are taking away the potential pullers for your PT.
You are taking away a long period of secs where mages could have healed for 200 MP for next 100+ chains.
You are taking away everyone else' potentials, by occupying them to be your nanny.

It is as simple as that, if your MNK/war doesn't do twice as much damage as your MNK/nin,
your PT would be better off with another DD or another puller/buffer than with your personal pet WHM.




ps. Before you just calling every mage who is unwilling to comply to your curing needs "sux",
I gotta be honest, I would also refuse to co-cure a MNK/war with a WHM at a cost of losing a /nin DD or another BRD, it is simply just not an efficient PT.

ps2. I should note that Alchemadian is also a great WHM, I have seen him in actions before myself.

[nefarious.lover]

I should note, Icy, that the original Alche quit after twowords looted his account.
I was Mikal, prior to taking over.

Though I'm a very attentive and competent mage myself, I haven't bothered to regear the job for lack of interest in it.




And yea, on that note... The biggest pet peeve among all healing jobs is having to heal DD jobs that take excessive damage.
So Mnk/War has GOT to be most mage's worst nightmare. It's not lazy, really ... It's just fucking tedious.


And someone please tell me MK has a 75 whm or rdm to be spouting off about how much mages suck.

[Icywave]

That would explain the change(on one hand) and the consistency(on the other) of your posting style, lol :love

[MonkeyKat]

Mages don't just idle there when they got no one to cure, you know that ?
By being able to protect yourself and not lose HP like every 5 secs, you are giving mages opportunities to do other tasks.

Let's see. In my party, the WHM is fully able to flash and enfeeble (if there's no RDM). If there's a RDM, the RDM handles the enfeebling. BLMs get to throw out nukes for extra damage and SMNs get to use buffs and offensive blood pacts. There are no other tasks. A good whm (such as myself and my bf) also have no trouble keeping 3-4 DDs Hasted.

You seem to forget that in a KRT party, you have exactly what I'm talking about doing elsewhere, only with even more damage being done to the monks and more healing required, in addition to needing Banish on ghosts and frequent blindnas (to the point that usually each mage has a particular DD that they're in charge of casting blindna on). If you take this concept and put it into action on ToAU mobs such as colibri, you don't have any -na spells to maintain and there's less damage being dealt to the party since there's no AoEs.

All your PTs require so much healing (Regen III, Cure V, and occasionally Cure III just so you can Counterance ?)

Hardly requires much healing. Regen III and the occasional Cure V do most the healing, plus a little healing every so often from my own Chakra. Cure IIIs are generally thrown out by the support healer on the occasions that my HP drops into the red (which is still quite a bit of HP on a mnk) to make sure I don't get one-shotted.

A RDM main healer, however, has to either use very frequent Cure IIIs or the high enmity Cure IV, and less efficiently than a WHM (Noble's Tunic + Light Staff = +20% Cure Potency, and stack it with MND gear and Cure V and your hp:mp healing efficiency is very very good).

The meripo PT has got to the point that Pulling > Buffing > Healing > Damage dealing.
When was the last time your chain ends because PT can't do enough damage ? When was the last time your chain ends because you can't get enough mobs?
By you going /war and put yourself in a situation where mages have to keep eyes on you constantly, you are taking away the potential pullers for your PT.
You are taking away a long period of secs where mages could have healed for 200 MP for next 100+ chains.
You are taking away everyone else' potentials, by occupying them to be your nanny.

Very funny. Read what I said before. First off, my parties as mnk/war were pre-75 on VT-IT mobs. It's hard to push past chain 5 on IT mobs, though we could usually push to 6 or 7. We never had to wait for mp before pulling again, only for mobs to respawn in some camps. Other than that, we had no downtime, merely kills a tad too slow to push the chain past 6 or 7. At lv75 with 3 mnk/wars, would be easy to keep chains going indefinitely if mobs respawn fast enough and there's no competition (as if that ever happens).

The mages have no trouble resting for mp as needed, especially since they can, if necessary, alternate.

It is as simple as that, if your MNK/war doesn't do twice as much damage as your MNK/nin, your PT would be better off with another DD or another puller/buffer than with your personal pet WHM.

That's assuming that a fourth DD or second buffer would increase damage output more than my being mnk/war does. Double Attack, Berserk, and Counter add a lot of damage and while it may not literally double what I could do as mnk/nin, there is also the fact that the other DDs are able go all out with actual damage enhancing subs (such as drg/sam or drg/war instead of loldrg/nin). 3 MNK/WARs is more damage than 4 MNK/NINs or 3mnk/nins and an extra BRD or COR, for example.

I gotta be honest, I would also refuse to co-cure a MNK/war with a WHM at a cost of losing a /nin DD or another BRD, it is simply just not an efficient PT.

And you would be missing out on a highly efficient, high exp/hour party; but that's your choice. We've had a few people refuse to join us based on the assumption that mnk/war cannot be an effective tank. We also talked quite a few people into giving it a try before deciding it won't work and they were thoroughly impressed and asked to party with us again. BRDs were particularly impressed, making it easy for us to keep finding BRDs since the same ones kept wanting to party with us.

And yea, on that note... The biggest pet peeve among all healing jobs is having to heal DD jobs that take excessive damage.

I've only ever seen this mentality in those mages who think healing means spamming Cure III and ignoring Regen II/III, Cure V, and any other spell they have to make themselves more efficient.

And someone please tell me MK has a 75 whm or rdm to be spouting off about how much mages suck.

70whm and 60rdm. My WHM has been 70 for well over a year now and it was the job I started with back in Nov 03. I stopped it at 70 because, at the time I got to 70, there really wasn't much benefit to getting past 70 beyond Reraise III and I was really sick of craptacular /nins and the lack of appreciation most people have for main healers in general (If things go perfectly, they tend to praise the tanks or DDs. If things go wrong, they immediately blame the whm, even if it was because the puller retardedly linked half a dozen mobs and then the RDM cast Diaga on them). It's also fully geared with most of the best gear, including Light/Dark/Ice/Wind/Earth staves, Noble's Tunic, Magician's Earring (for /smn, though /sch may make that useless now), Serket Ring, lots of +mp, +mnd, and +hMP gear, as well as some +haste (I love Blessed mitts/pants/shoes). I've even got a Zenith Crown waiting for lv73 if I ever get around to finishing up getting 75 on that char (my primary focus now is DNC, with a little focus on mnk and war). I really ought to finish of WHM to 75, though, just to stop asses like you from trying to discredit me for lacking a mere 5 levels.

I retired rdm at 60 cause I just got sick of playing it. I'm not ashamed to admit I always had trouble maintaining my Refresh cycle. I just couldn't get the timing down for it and it's also a job that goes very underappreciated for the things its best at and it's incredibly not fun to try to main heal as rdm since it has pretty much no tools to make *healing* more effective. I always found myself thinking "Dammit, if I wanted to main heal, I'd be playing my WHM, which is far more enjoyable."

[Icywave]

K, we stole this thread for long enough, should give it back to it's original topics.

In my humble view, DNC should gear towards TP in Haste > ACC > everything else when in a meripo setup.
For the fact that DNC is very TP reliant,
so making sure you hit as fast as you could, as well as being as close as you can be, to 95% ACC cap
is very important to the effectiveness of this job.

Most of your dances have a fixed number of buffing %, therefore no need to worry about stacking certain stats to alternate the potency.

If you have luxury to do WS once in a while, it would be Dancing Edge probably.
200SP ダンシングエッジ　 1.1875 5 DEX30% CHR40% 命中

Dancing Edge is a TP modifies ACC WS,
therefore at either 100TP or 300TP, it will have the same fTP (1.1875) and do the same damage if you can land 5 hits already (6 hits if dual wield)
Hence it is also a perfect WS for DNC to use,
because if you want to WS, you want to do it as fast as possible so you can start accumulate TP again for the healing coming up next.
Without SA adding DEX nor TA adding AGI to your D, the priority of stats in terms of buffing Dancing Edge should be ACC > ATK>=STR=DEX=CHR for DNC
Of course, that ranking is subject to the amount of that stat you can get in the same slots.

The foremost thing is ACC, making all hits land in a multiple hit WS is so vital, it outweights any benefit other WSC (2nd mod) can bring onto the table.
ATK helps pDIF, however due to the low cap of 1 handed weapons and help of Minuet, it is possible you don't need to stack ATK in every slots.
STR helps D and pDIF 2 ways, DE doesn't have a STR WSC mod, but if translate to WSC, STR could be about 25-35% boost, therefore we got an interesting choice.
DEX has 30% WSC, and helps your ACC more, even Dancing Edge can't critical, these 2 bonus should warrant a DEX build Dancing Edge being consistantly capable
CHR is 40% WSC, also intriquing. 40% WSC can be considered a huge boost, in any none-STR stat already, but CHR equips are few, so it might not be for everyone.

Just some rough analysis, trying out every stat by stacking your available items to test couple runs, should be able to help you find your ideal Dancing Edge.

[Fallyn`]

Icywave :
In my humble view, DNC should gear towards TP in Haste > ACC > everything else when in a meripo setup.
For the fact that DNC is very TP reliant,
so making sure you hit as fast as you could, as well as being as close as you can be, to 95% ACC cap
is very important to the effectiveness of this job.

I agree.

[Tainted]

nefarious.lover :
So Mnk/War has GOT to be most mage's worst nightmare. It's not lazy, really ... It's just fucking tedious.

I get more complaints about my drg/war than my mnk/war u.u But I generally play a lot more aggressively on jobs like DRG and SAM compared to THF and MNK.

Anyway, don't worry about MK, this is about the third or fourth forum where she's been branded village idiot.

It shouldn't take much to come to that conclusion when she's trying to compare tanking high VT-IT mamools to much weaker mobs in KRT as /war with counterstance up. She thinks that a firespit + rushing death combo is easily taken care of by cure V, especially with counterstance up.

To make the point even easier to understand. She thinks boosting every 15 seconds will generate more hate than not having the animation delay punching shit.

If you ask people like Xrave who had hardcore merit PT with mnk/war in mamool staging point, even with the aid of mages outside of the PT to cure them, they still got rocked. I guess that's because everyone besides her "boyfriend" are shitty mages, but maybe it pays off to be shitty since you can sit in an LS and get stuff while the non-shitty ones are outside looking through your window in the cold snowy night while you feast on dragon stuffed with colibri, and crab...mmm crab...

[MonkeyKat]

In my humble view, DNC should gear towards TP in Haste > ACC > everything else when in a meripo setup.

Are you figuring on a DNC in merit parties eating sushi or meat? I'm, personally, hoping to pull off a meat build, but as I gather more Haste gear I wonder if that would be viable. One thing I figure is it'll depend on how much tp you're having to use in the party.

[Icywave]

I am by no means 75 DNC yet, however, with the consideration of a B ranking Dagger as the highest combat skill for DNC,
I would strongly suggest suchi over meat regardless what your build is in the meripo PT,
and that is the personal the experience from my RDM, as RDM also have exactly B Dagger skill

Also, the damage added by eating meat wouldn't give you the utility from gaining more TP by capping the ACC cap, by eating sushi,
to help PT and your own Dancing Edge (5-6 hits WS, again) more, eat sushi ^^

[Juro]

Needs moar QQing

[Kleiner]

I am by no means 75 DNC yet, however, with the consideration of a B ranking Dagger as the highest combat skill for DNC,
I would strongly suggest suchi over meat regardless what your build is in the meripo PT,
and that is the personal the experience from my RDM, as RDM also have exactly B Dagger skill

being a PUP with full H2H merits, full pahluwan, and more, i must agree. DNC even fully merited will have ACC problems while not using sushi. the Advantage, is, though, you can pop sushi and replace a good bit of ACc gear for offensive gear, or replace madrigal with Minuet.

[Vector]

Kleiner :

I am by no means 75 DNC yet, however, with the consideration of a B ranking Dagger as the highest combat skill for DNC,
I would strongly suggest suchi over meat regardless what your build is in the meripo PT,
and that is the personal the experience from my RDM, as RDM also have exactly B Dagger skill

being a PUP with full H2H merits, full pahluwan, and more, i must agree. DNC even fully merited will have ACC problems while not using sushi. the Advantage, is, though, you can pop sushi and replace a good bit of ACc gear for offensive gear, or replace madrigal with Minuet.

Or replace Pahluwan body with Assault Jerkin! Harharhar! :crazy

[MonkeyKat]

I am by no means 75 DNC yet, however, with the consideration of a B ranking Dagger as the highest combat skill for DNC,
I would strongly suggest suchi over meat regardless what your build is in the meripo PT,
and that is the personal the experience from my RDM, as RDM also have exactly B Dagger skill

Also, the damage added by eating meat wouldn't give you the utility from gaining more TP by capping the ACC cap, by eating sushi,
to help PT and your own Dancing Edge (5-6 hits WS, again) more, eat sushi ^^

I can definitely see wanting to use sushi when you definitely need to maximize your tp gain, but I dont' think it's likely for every party to be like that. I also have experience with a B rank weapon (when I got bored with Rampage, I started using Company Sword + Joyeuse on my WAR to liven things up a little). I never really noticed an issue and while Aggressor certainly helps, my vorpal blades are more often than not full TP return even without Aggressor up.

being a PUP with full H2H merits, full pahluwan, and more, i must agree. DNC even fully merited will have ACC problems while not using sushi. the Advantage, is, though, you can pop sushi and replace a good bit of ACc gear for offensive gear, or replace madrigal with Minuet.

PUP has a C rank skill, however, as opposed to DNC's B rank. C rank caps at 225 at lv75 while B rank caps at 250, which is ~22 more acc.

Also, meat will give more +att than a second Minuet.

Or replace Pahluwan body with Assault Jerkin! Harharhar!

First off, 18 attack from AJ doesn't even come close to the increase in attack from eating meat, but I would definitely use it if eating sushi...though I wish it weren't such an ugly color.

[Icywave]

Your WAR wonldn't suffer from missing any minor ACC and be under 95% ACC cap, however, as a DNC, your PT will suffer if you are not landing almost every hit.

At the first glance, it seems it comes down to if you are more damage oriented or support oriented.
Meat maybe can work, but whether or not it will work at a worthwhile trade-off will be a different story.

One huge fallacy of eating meat is then you have to stack on ACC items, in the slots where you could have put on some Haste,
hence making your TP gain even further slower than a sushi + Haste build.
Then you just simply can not cure as much.

Even if in certain PT setup where you don't need to cure much, spamming Dancing Edge will still be your best damage source, because this is Dagger.

It turns out, sushi + Haste build should be on top both offensively and defensively.