[[Bariss]]

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[Sugami]

Maths too much for ya? *huggle* Don't worry, I'm not being condescending, so no need to worry your pretty little face over it

At this point in time I've stopped caring. The difference is really not all that much so in the spirit of "having fun", do what you like (within reason).

[nefarious.lover]

Told you /nin was better.


No hard feelings though, I didn't need you to doublecheck my math and personal experience for me, I already knew /nin was better for a job that builds TP identically to thf, minus triple attack.

P.s.
DA has a diminishing return, so, no, Brutal will not help /war more than /nin.
Quite the opposite, actually.

[Nudecke]

You should check the math yourself about the brutal earring Sugami. Remeber, its a flat 5% DA rate and /NIN gets more hits in total. In the space of 48 hits and 60 hits from /WAR and /NIN respectively, a 5% proc of DA will give /WAR 2 extra hits(making it 48+4+2 because any DA hits can not be DA'ed again) and will give /NIN 3 extra hits. So, in the same time frame, /NIN gains 1 extra DA proc over /WAR. Remember that 5% of a higher number is always higher and /NIN will always gain more hits than any other SJ, and thus benefits the best from Brutal Earring.

For instance if you were to cut down the fight period to 28 seconds then:
/NIN goes from 12 hits to 2 + ((28/5.8 )*2) = 10 hits (49TP) whilst
/WAR still stays at 9 hits (with possible 10 or more depending on DA) (49.5TP or 55TP with one DA)

What you say about that?

I agree, its a matter of luck on the part of the amount of time you have available to swing. If you are in a situation where one sub is just at getting an extra hit, but not quite there(ie: 9.9 hits) then it's only getting that 9 but if the fight were a second longer, it would be 10. The thing is, /NIN gives you more hits on average and more TP on average. There is a reason /NIN is so popular and its not just because its a bandwagon like you seemed to think at first. It really does give a good bit of extra attacks and usually gives slightly more TP(though not always the case) while also giving you a huge defensive bonus to go along with it. I have every single melee job leveled to at least post 50, so I don't just have /NIN available to my character, I just often use it because it gives a good bit without taking much away. I'm glad to see you don't hate Ninja sub anymore and see how useful it can be if you really understand the game

[Fallyn`]

Why the fuck are you guys debating it down to numbers? Play/use whatever the fuck you want.

[Sugami]

Heh well I worked out that an extra 5% for /WAR (i.e. 15%) gives 105.1% more TP than usual where for /NIN it gives 105% more TP hehe so it's really neither here nor there I guess.

Glad we agree in the end, man Dual Wield is so hax but I still need an extra 7 levels on SAM

[Nudecke]

Why the fuck are you guys debating it down to numbers? Play/use whatever the fuck you want.

Because I kind of enjoy it lol.

[Shinsei]

prolly not the best spot to post it but, just kinda impressed

managed to get 20k/hr with a DNC, no bard, was on my lv 61rng, we had like no tanks either, we just kinda burned through it lol
Not bad for that level, better than most pick ups lol

Edited: Typo,

[Razhel]

Heart snatcher sucks ass... I want to MPK THFs who is using it, and I will want to MPK DNCs who use it..
I mean, c'mon.. Jambiya isn't that expensive x_x

[Elexia]

Jambya = up to 400k on some servers.

X2 that = up to 800k.

That is expensive for people who don't have deep wallets full of gil, aka the normal person.

[nefarious.lover]

Behemoth +1 are acceptable substitutes.
Ideally is Jimbya / Behemoth +1, imho, since Jimbya is only slightly higher DPS, I think the +10 attk would be more beneficial to your overall DoT.

And, yes, Virginia, Dual Wield is hax. Nudecke is right, there's a reason everyone uses it.

But instead of wondering why it's so good, or trying to come up with ways to make other subs perform better, I wish people would just accept that /nin is "The" melee sub for most jobs, and get over it. If you can situationally sub other stuff and make it work, kudos, but /nin is the all around most versatile, and often best performing, subjob, for most melee.

[Siren-Vail]

nefarious.lover :
/nin is the all around most versatile, and often best performing, subjob, for most melee.

just showing that I share this line of thought and wish others would quit fighting against the grain

[MonkeyKat]

for most melee.

Let's see...worthless for DRG and SAM. DRK can do better with /sam. WAR can do at least as good with /sam, if not better. THF/WAR does outdamage THF/NIN, even if the /nin gets TP a bit faster. Hell, PLD/WAR should outdamage PLD/NIN if both were geared for DDing. The only reason the pld/nin might win is dual weilding Company Sword + Joyeuse, but the pld/war with Joyeuse should tp faster. /nin does nothing for MNK either. BLU can do at least as well with /thf, if not better. Nin can't sub nin. >.> /nin is useless for PUP as well. RNG and COR can benefit from /nin for +racc melee weapons, but /war and /sam and /rng (for COR) do more.

So, ruled out drg, sam, drk, war, thf, pld, mnk, blu, nin, pup, rng, and cor. The exceptions being defensive benefits for pld, mnk, rng, cor(? do they steal hate that often?), and maybe thf.

What's left?


PLD, MNK, and RNG generally sub NIN for the defensive reasons. Possibly BLU as well, depending on the setup. The offensive benefits they (excluding mnk which gets none) get from /nin a bonus, but not the best they can get from a subjob.

[Siren-Vail]

damage isn't everything, having high offense with equally high defense makes a more valueable teammate then a raw DD only with nearly no defense

THF benefits greatly from /nin, the damage "loss" from not subing war isn't a big dip, but the defensive addition is huge: the ability to spike damage and tank something aswell or better then most other melees greatly outweights the damage gain of /war.

For HNMs it's different, I'm all about /war cause you need a large attack boost for HNM's stellar defense stats and level difference. But it's not for every HNM- like when I fight Khimaira I /nin cause I like not being one-shotted by Troubillion(shadows absorb)

I use to play DRG along time ago before the /SAM and 2hand update, and even then I'd use /nin in exp: I like being able to strugg damage off while still using my main job's built in damage dealing ability

[MonkeyKat]

THF benefits greatly from /nin, the damage "loss" from not subing war isn't a big dip, but the defensive addition is huge: the ability to spike damage and tank something aswell or better then most other melees greatly outweights the damage gain of /war.

THF isn't a job that tends to steal hate, though.

I use to play DRG along time ago before the /SAM and 2hand update, and even then I'd use /nin in exp: I like being able to strugg damage off while still using my main job's built in damage dealing ability

Or, you could've gone /mage and been a support healer and done as much or more damage (casting utsu: ichi takes a lot longer than a /rdm, /whm, or /blm spell). not to mention DRG has two jumps for shedding hate.

Defense can be important, but /nin is not the ultimate answer to that. People also underestimate just what a good healer is capable of. Even then, /nin is mostly crap for damage mitigatoin pre-74. 3-6 hits (which could be as little as 1.5-3 attack rounds) blocked, with 4 seconds of not attacking. If I take 1-2 hits and then the tank gets hate back (which he'll have an easier time doing if I take hits straight out rather than let shadows absorb them), then I can easily get that hp back by a mage casting Regen I/II/III on me, or as a DNC, I can let Drain Samba take care of it.


Meanwhile, especially at merit level, the DDs going all out with even higher damage potential means even faster kills, which means fewer hits thrown at them by the mob. There's a necessary balance, of course, but again, for someone to say that /nin is the best sub for most melee jobs is BS.

Heart snatcher sucks ass

How? I'll agree there are better (at least for THF) and it's not very good when you're dual weilding, since it'd only affect one hand. However, it's got good DMG and +6% crit and ought to work very well for dnc/sam, dnc/drg, and dnc/war.

[Rho]

/DRG

you get Attack bonus and Accuracy bonus and you can wear Wyvern Earring (instead of Suppa) for another Haste+5%. With 1 knife only, you hit really fast (stack with turban and stuff). Use sushi and if accuracy is decent, you can switch out accuracy gears for attack gears. This should be able to minimize the 0s so you can get the most tp gain possible for HNM kind of fight and keep up with the dances.

[MonkeyKat]

Just to clarify, Rho, /drg's Acc Bonus won't stack with the Acc Bonus DNC already gets at lv30.

[Siren-Vail]

MonkeyKat :
THF isn't a job that tends to steal hate, though.

Hello, I'm Vail. I'm a thf that can and often steals hate in exp parties

you mention over and over that mages can cover a going out melee (this implys a melee who is being reckless not effective. I merit mostly on my rdm, being a healer and refresh for 3-4 melee, and many times the MP doesn't stay full, all it takes is a few melee taking too many stray hits and what MP I have will be on the down spirial.

Another thing about being a solo main healer for some bad melees who don't sub nin, I don't haste them. Haste effects not only melee speed but recast- I like my haste spells to benefit a player on both of those aspects. Which means all those "manzy-man" melees who don't sub nin don't get no haste from me. To be fair, if I have a /nin person who is bad at casting shadows and gets clobbered on anyways I cut them off from haste too: people who aren't using effective damage mitigation only cost me more MP so why should I put a spell on them that will make them use even more MP? It's better to cut my losses and cut them off.

so melee/non-nin with no haste vs melee/nin with haste (let's guess which one does more damage, please)

Meanwhile, especially at merit level, the DDs going all out with even higher damage potential means even faster kills, which means fewer hits thrown at them by the mob. There's a necessary balance, of course,

at the merit level: any respectfully equiped melee job can deal effective DD to maintain an infinate chain WITHOUT needing abilities to enhance their offensive prowless. Many jobs prove this.

I've done infinate chain exp parties with: WAR MNK THF RNG BLU SAM DRK (NIN gets to /war so they are enhancing themselves so I don't count them much) all of them using /nin and never once needing anyone to sub some job to enhance their damage at a cost of killing my MP for some person's E-peen

the only ones I haven't seen it done an infinate party with to-date is a drg bst, but that's more of a matter of circumstance since I don't know or play with many drg or bst

also if my party can accomidate a melee to not /nin: it's gonna be the mnks or sams who will be subbing something else before any other melee, cause a those two will get more out of it, and be more subceptable to taking hits then say drk rng drg war

[MonkeyKat]

you mention over and over that mages can cover a going out melee (this implys a melee who is being reckless not effective. I merit mostly on my rdm, being a healer and refresh for 3-4 melee, and many times the MP doesn't stay full, all it takes is a few melee taking too many stray hits and what MP I have will be on the down spirial.

RDM is also an incredibly inefficient healer. They make up for it with refresh and convert, but otherwise are inefficient.

Also, it's rather idiotic to assume that a "going out melee" means a melee who is being reckless. On my MNK, I always go all out. I also tank as mnk/war with counterstance + berserk. I use a three mage backline (whm+brd+any other mage). The other DDs are also able to go all out with their damage output without worry of taking hits because I hold hate. The third mage is usually either a smn (for fenrir's buffs) or blm (for extra damage) and only casts healing spells in emergencies, with the WHM providing the majority of the healing without any trouble and without having to stop the pulling in order to recover mp.

Another thing about being a solo main healer for some bad melees who don't sub nin, I don't haste them.

You're apparently a craptacular RDM, then. THen again, you clearly think any melee who doesn't sub nin is "bad," which is bullshit. Choosing not to haste someone just because it'll only affect the speed of their attacks and not their spell recast is just plain retardation.

If there's a melee who's just plain bad, then it won't matter what they sub and you shouldn't party with them regardless. However, it is complete retardation on your part to decide a melee is bad just because they're not subbing nin.

so melee/non-nin with no haste vs melee/nin with haste (let's guess which one does more damage, please)

Are you completely retarded or just completely retarded?

at the merit level: any respectfully equiped melee job can deal effective DD to maintain an infinate chain WITHOUT needing abilities to enhance their offensive prowless. Many jobs prove this.

So-called infinite chains doesn't mean anything. If two parties are getting "infinite chains" then the one with shorter fights is getting more exp.

also if my party can accomidate a melee to not /nin: it's gonna be the mnks or sams who will be subbing something else before any other melee, cause a those two will get more out of it, and be more subceptable to taking hits then say drk rng drg war

You seem to forget that drk, drg, and war can sub SAM and get the same damage mitigation SAM main has, while getting more damage increase than /nin will give them.

DRG can also sub a mage job and provide backup healing.

[Juro]

MK you start arguments wherever you go, wtf? Gtfo.