[Nadrojj]

Idk about you other older Rangers or if it you can even do it now but I soloed from 1-24.

1-10 West Ronny
10-18 Maze of Shakrami
18-24 Qufim

All on worms easy and enjoyable levels.

[Spider-Dan]

Rajah-Phoenix :
Musketeer+2 is probably a nice weapon at that level, but suggesting someone pickup a weapon that will take them 3 months to get rid of for half the price they bought it for isn't exactly a decent recommendation. And considering their endgame bow they'll use for life can be found in that same level range, it's an even tougher recommendation.

a) MG+1 is dirt cheap and still crushes any archery solution pre-70
MG+2 has higher DPS than E-bow, at any level
c) I'd rather transition from MG+2 to my bow for life at 67

[Rajah-Phoenix]

MG+2 has higher DPS than E-bow, at any level

ebow + demons: 10.862

musk+2 + silver bullets: 8.908

Huh? Unless you're considering the delay function of ammo a different way (I never delved into vzx's testing here), that's neigh impossible.

O-bow is a nice weapon, I will not doubt that. In fact, I merited both archery and marksman to 8/8, merited 90% of the time with obow only (even at birds, used darksteel), and loved it. I still use it on various weak things, limbus, etc because my add effect jumps to 50+ and acids stick easily on anything outside toau. O-bow is also quite cheap to use. I used hellfire+1, but preferred selene's at kirin (heh). O-bow was fine with darksteel, but I had troubles finding the ammo. I had to realize I could no longer keep both 8/8, and had to choose. After finally getting vali's bow, I took marksman down to 4/8, to make room for my SAM. In the future, 0I plan to drop it to 0/8 for 4 eva - as I use vbow for zergs, and don't need the merits for my relatively limited use of obow now.

[Spider-Dan]

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fj...9;num=74;page=1

Cliff notes:

- ranged delay is 110/sec (unlike melee delay, which is 60/sec)
- ammo delay does not affect shot speed at all, only TP return
- there is approximately a 1.7-1.8s delay after you fire a shot before you can start the next shot, regardless of weapon

When these factors are taken into account, DPS ratings are:

HF+1/silvers- 16.53
E-bow/kaburas- 17.13
MG+2/silvers- 17.25
Culverin+1/shells- 17.33
O-bow/DSB- 17.48
Yoichinoyumi/kaburas- 18.01
Annihilator/silvers- 18.22

[Antithesis]

Spider-Dan would you mind sending me a PM with all this info in some sort of form so I can orginize it and put it in the guide? (Right know im like totally confused lol.)

[Lambtor]

if you want to compare the merits of guns it'd help to put coffinmaker, fourth division gun, and shark gun in your dmg/second comparisons.

my main issue is that you use a 565 delay weapon for 16.8% tp/shot for your 6 shot build. o-bow's 432 returns 1.6% less TP/shot, but i've seen no mention of what it'd gain from using the same store TP+ build you mention for guns.

you also have to mention that longer times taken between shots will effect the possibility of melee attack rounds with standard melee, so the TP gain of both setups (when included withe standard melee swings) is not easy to compare. the vast majority of the time that i've seen people try to do this, they always make an assumption of 1 atk round or possibly 2 during the 6-7 shot time. you also have to mention that pulling hate while using a ranged weapon interrupts you less when your ranged delay is shorter. if you have to stop your shooting to put up 3rd eye or utsu you'll lose less by interrupting an e-bow shot or a o-bow shot than if you're setting a gun as your main ranged choice.

if you want to rewrite that section, be my guest. i don't think it's wise to recommend a new rng who just hit 50 to use a musk gun/+1/+2 to exp, and someone reading this guide may think they can give good output using it even without a rajas.

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?t=5698

[Spider-Dan]

Lambtor :
if you want to compare the merits of guns it'd help to put coffinmaker, fourth division gun, and shark gun in your dmg/second comparisons.

Um, what? Those are two LV60 and a LV72 gun, and you're still debating over using MGs in the 50s, where they're unquestionably superior to archery in about five different ways. What would be the point of calculating the DPS of other guns when you're completely ignoring the DPS figures for lower level guns that I've already pointed out?

my main issue is that you use a 565 delay weapon for 16.8% tp/shot for your 6 shot build. o-bow's 432 returns 1.6% less TP/shot, but i've seen no mention of what it'd gain from using the same store TP+ build you mention for guns.

Fine.

There is no way to achieve a 5-shot build with O-bow/E-bow. O-bow (not E-bow) can achieve 6-shot with skadi+rajas, but seeing as how I already readily admit that O-bow is our best ranged weapon anyway, I don't think there's really much accomplished by pointing that out. O-bow cannot be equipped until LV67, and guns easily outperform archery prior to that.

you also have to mention that longer times taken between shots will effect the possibility of melee attack rounds with standard melee, so the TP gain of both setups (when included withe standard melee swings) is not easy to compare.

OK, so TP gain is not easy to compare. MGs still have better DPS, MUCH better WS, MUCH better barrages. Where is the argument again?

you also have to mention that pulling hate while using a ranged weapon interrupts you less when your ranged delay is shorter. if you have to stop your shooting to put up 3rd eye or utsu you'll lose less by interrupting an e-bow shot or a o-bow shot than if you're setting a gun as your main ranged choice.

Interrupting your shot to cast a spell will accomplish something between "nothing at all" and "not even remotely worth losing your shot over it," so I feel comfortable in completely ignoring that particular aspect.

if you want to rewrite that section, be my guest. i don't think it's wise to recommend a new rng who just hit 50 to use a musk gun/+1/+2 to exp, and someone reading this guide may think they can give good output using it even without a rajas.

Again, you with the rajas obsession.

Regardless of your gear or subjob, MGs will have:

- superior DPS
- superior per-shot damage
- far superior WS damage
- far superior barrage damage
- far superior barrage TP return

...compared to any archery solution in the 50s.

There is no performance-based reason to use a bow over a gun in the 50s.

Clear enough?

[Lambtor]

Guns will put up dependable damage[red], but as previously mentioned, TP gain is relatively poor. Higher weapon skill damage won't completely make up for it, either[/red]. Musketeer gun (Lv 50) and Musketeer gun+1 (Lv 52) are available, as well as silver bullets (Lv 50).

[red]Guns seem to have a TP gain penalty, however. For example, the slowest crossbow in the game has a delay of 624 (when combined with bolt delay of 192). The average gun has a delay of 600, but bullets' delay of 240 brings the total to 840. The 624 delay crossbow will have a TP return of 15% / shot, but the gun will only return 16.5%. 1.5% more TP from an additional 216 delay is not good. Ranged weapons overall have a TP gain penalty as it is, considering their delay (the delay/TP return for standard melee weapons is about 25% more than ranged). Guns seem to suffer the most from this penalty, however. RNG Guns have the worst TP gain rate of any weapon type in the game. [/red]Guns [red]also [/red]don't typically give large amounts of ranged attack+ or ranged accuracy+ until very late levels. There are also only 2 forms of ammunition available to guns; high base dmg or stun bullets.
[red]The high base dmg will not make up for the horrible delay/TP gain through weapon skills and JA. [/red]Guns are also expensive to maintain. In the early levels, guns aren't worth even looking at, due to the high delay, lack of RACC+ (Lv 34 is the first gun that RNG can equip with RACC+ as of this writing), [green]low damage bullets before Lv 22,[/green] and lack of RATK+. [red]There aren't many reasons why guns are not a great weapon choice, but the few listed are very important reasons to avoid using them in exp parties.[/red]

How about we do this then. Remove the stuff listed in red, but keep the parts in black in their respective sections. This essentially removes any negative comments made about guns as far as exp weapon type.

[DoA]

Can I have it in crayon please :sly

[Spider-Dan]

That's a good start. I'd make a couple of other changes:

[green]With the ability to equip silver bullets (LV50), guns become an extremely powerful (if expensive) option.[/green] Musketeer gun (Lv 50) and Musketeer gun+1 (Lv 52) are available.

[quote=ranged weapon type section]Guns are also expensive to maintain. In the [green]very[/green] early levels, guns aren't worth even looking at, due to the [red]high delay, lack of RACC+ (Lv 34 is the first gun that RNG can equip with RACC+ as of this writing),[/red] low damage bullets before Lv 22[red], and lack of RATK+[/red]. [green]Once you have access to Silver Bullets, guns become an effective option for any RNG, and remain one of the best options for burst damage for the rest of the game.[/green]

[Lambtor]

afaik only military gun gives any ratk+ at all before lv 34, and that's only +7. longbows(+1) in that range give considerably more ratk+. and musk+1/+2 don't give any ratk+ at all for most exp camps after 50 because that's dependent on nation's control. and only the cor line of hexaguns give any racc+ before lv 34. the lack of ratk+ comment should stay.

[Spider-Dan]

Lambtor :
afaik only military gun gives any ratk+ at all before lv 34, and that's only +7.

http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/808

edit: wrong quote... I meant to respond to "only the cor line of hexaguns give any racc+ before lv 34."

longbows(+1) in that range give considerably more ratk+. and musk+1/+2 don't give any ratk+ at all for most exp camps after 50 because that's dependent on nation's control. and only the cor line of hexaguns give any racc+ before lv 34. the lack of ratk+ comment should stay.

Pirate's Gun+1/Bullet = D67, RACC+5
Power Bow+1/Fang Arrow = D46, RACC+7, RATK+9

This is a common pattern; any RATK advantage on a longbow is usually more than made up for in straight DMG by the gun.

"Lack of RATK" should only be mentioned as a deficit of guns if "lack of DMG" is mentioned as a deficit of bows.

P.S. To be brutally honest, the guide should say, "From LV15-40, use a crossbow. If you do not, you are a moron." But if we are going to equivocate and allow bows as an "acceptable" option, then there's no reason not to allow guns.

[Dewbag]

A decent guide, although it is riddled with bias towards bow and /nin.

[Lambtor]

i'm big on standard exp pt friendly setups. ones where you're often asked to pull, and it helps if you can debuff with acids. and not require being cure bombed when you arrive at camp.

[Spider-Dan]

And that's fine too. Xbow is a solid choice on any mob where acids can proc.

But why all the crazy hate for guns and love for bows?

[Shamus]

Bows look cooler? That and the biggest misconception of them all is ebow is the best ranged weapon asides from relics - therefor all other bows much be good. I personally LOVE rangers that use saranga or w/e its called. lol

[Antithesis]

Dewbag :
A decent guide, although it is riddled with bias towards bow and /nin.

Sory bout that I just assume Lambtor wrote this before all the changes were made. In anycase ill try to update it as much as I can.

Spider-dan sorry I havent updated it yet but I will do so tommorow (been kinda busy)

[Dewbag]

/nin is still the best subjob 1-70 imo, but after 70 there are other subjobs that can contribute just as much.

[Lambtor]

the 1-70 consensus on /nin is the reason i want to recommend newer rng to go that route. i don't want to rehash the other thread where other SJs are discussed.

i don't love bows. if i had to lvl the job over again i'd probably go xbow the entire way. i just don't advocate guns as an exp weapon, because alot of the benefit seems to be dependent on how well you time your ratk macro.

[Lurker01]

umm they have the same timing after the ammo lands on the mob. Unless you're advocating the use of macro
/ra
/wait x
/ra