[aques]

I partied with a lvl 60 summoner the other day, and all he would cast is Titan and Garuda, for stoneskin and blink, respectively. He refuses to cast anymore summons other than those two, and I notice that after those 2 summons have been cast, he just sits back and heals the party. Refreshing stoneskin and blink one more time when monster is around 50% HP.

Is there a limit as to how many avatar abilities he can summon? Kind of like how bard can only have 2 song effects on a player at a time.

[GiantKillerRobots]

No, he's just one of the summoners who plays a support role, healing and buffing. I don't plan on playing like that, I think I'll actually keep mine out for the fight, but that is a valid way to play nonoetheless.

[Wickett]

That party was far from ideal Aques... having a WHM, RDM, and a SMN is unneccesary. When I PT as a SMN, I'm always the main cure tank, and I keep Aerial Armor (PT blink) up as often as possible. If I'm partying with either a WHM or a RDM, they usually spam Haste, Regen, and debuffs, because both WHMs and RDMs have much better enhancing and enfeebling magic skill, while I handle the curing. However, if the backline is a WHM, RDM, AND a SMN, then someone is going to be pretty useless. Granted I can use my avatars to do damage abilities once every minute, which i often do if Aerial Armor is minimizing the need for constant curing (and yes, there is a cool down time. SMNs have to activate a Blood Pact with their avatars to use any type of ability, and its cool down is roughly 1 minute.) Basically, SMNs are cure tanks with awesome PT buffs, and should be paired with other mages accordingly.

[Wickett]

And GiantKillerRobot... you'll be pretty useless AND inefficient if you play that way. Good mages of all types shoot for mp efficieny... they won't cast a spell unless the benefit of that spell to the PT is worth the mp cost. Keeping an avatar out during a battle is wasteful... its akin to curing someone who's at full health. Even my hardest hitting avatars like Ifrit and Titan do less damage and attack less frequently than the front line melee players in my PTs. Also, if I left Ifrit out for an entire battle and tossed in a Burning Strike or two... I would be nearly tapped for mp, which would mean my PT would either be forced to take the next mob without me to continue the chain, or to break the chain and wait for my mp. I'm all for playing the game how you want to play it, and believe me, I'd much rather be a damage dealer first and a backup healer second, but that's just not how this game works. No matter how badly a PLD wants to deal big damage... he's just not going to be doing it until he switches jobs. If you want to deal damage as a mage, play a BLM. But no matter how you slice it, SMNs are curetanks... if you can't deal with that then it's not the job for you~

[Gryffes]

WHM+RDM+SMN makes for a good setup.

the rdm debuffs, whm heals, and smn uses abilities.

A smn is not a curetank, thats a whm.

Learn how to use SMN properly instead of perpetuating the stupid NA player stereotype.

[Wickett]

You're an idiot Gryffes... try playing as a SMN for a while before making asinine statements like that. RDMs get Cure spells and WHMs get debuffs too... either one makes a good companion to a SMN. But you seem to want SMNs to let their massive mp pools go to waste by only using their abilities once a minute... and I'm the stupid NA? Let me enlighten you... the only avatar abilities that are really worth using on a regular basis are Aerial Armor, Ground Defense, and occasionally elemental spikes. Is a SMN just supposed to sit there in between abilities? NO! Good SMNs take up at least some of the curing, if not all of it, so that the RDM or WHM can focus on buffing/ debuffing (Regen, Haste, Dia, etc.) Having a WHM, RDM, and a SMN as the backline is UNNECESSARY... a BLM could be subbed in for any of those and make the PT 10 times better. Think before you post, Gryffes... I'd expect a little more intelligence out of a lvl 63 player.

[aques]

Wickett you mentioned that SMN are defensive support mages. I'm just wondering, since with the party setup of WHM, RDM, SMN, there is too much healing and not enough offense. I have had setups of just 2 mages: WHM and RDM and both of them can do healing pretty well even with 4 melee(not the ideal party, but much better than having WHM, RDM, SMN, things drop faster, can get xp chain more).

Another question I want to know is, is it possible for the SMN to do both defensive and offensive abilities and disregard the healing because truthfully it is not needed when the WHM mp is always above 70%? Or will using both defensive and offensive abilities drain too much mp?

[Nuvou]

Look if someone wants to play summoner how it was supposed to be played (like me) just let them?

[Wickett]

Good question Aques... it is possible to use both offensive and defensive abilities, but there are some minor technicalities. If your PT happens to be especially 1337, you may not be needed at all for curing, which leaves you to have some fun. However, you can only use one ability every minute, so you're options are somewhat limited. You've got to realize that Aerial Armor and PT stoneskin are by far your most valuable spells, so those two get priority. Granted, you may be able to get away with only refreshing one or both of those every other mob, but those have to be your first priority. After that, you're free to use your mediocre damage (but very cool looking) abilities to help whittle the mob's hp down. Also, since there is NO CAP on the amount of damage that an avatar can do, and since that damage varies a LOT every time you use the ability, you can sometimes be pleasantly surprised to see Ifrit's Burning Strike do a significant amount of damage. All of the avatar abilities tend to be pretty steep in mp cost, but with autorefresh, tons of mp, and the burden of being the main cure tank off your shoulders, you can take your mp down into the double digits without putting anyone in danger. Hope that helps~

[Wickett]

You can play SMN anyway you want Nuvou... I couldn't care less. I'm just trying to help people who want to be as useful as possible in their PTs. You can be a PLD/BLM for all I care, and if you're having fun doing it, then more power to you. But no one is going to invite a PLD/BLM into their party, and there are ::some:: people out there who have a problem with being generally worthless in a PT setting, so feel free to disregard my advice as an actual SMN ::cough:: and do whatever you want.

[Thomax]

bitchbitchbitch...imo.. i think that if u use summoner as main job then u need to use a summon during battle to do damage...yes it might not be alot..but its better then waisting a valuable spot for a damage dealer or somone else. if all u do as a summoner is sit back and just use blink and stone skin then be my geust..i ahve no problem with that at all but being a whm/summoner and doing that is better i think. but that is my opinion and i like seeing ppl use there jobs differently then waht the normal (i cant spell to good ) clitchie is(kle-shai :/) ( u cetch my drift >.<) and having fun with there job. isnt it what this game is about?having fun? well if u dont think so then sorry. :/....

[Geege]

Yes that is true. FFXI is not a job, it's a game. Games are made to be fun. Do what you want. Be a RNG/BRD or THF/SMN. Either be a machine that does what everyone wants you to do, or be yourself.

[starfire]

Wickett I don't have any exp as a summoner but I think the role for healing was designed for WHM, and RDM as a backup. It wouldn't make sense then to have a thrid healing class when the first two are in demand and do a good job. Summoners, I think were supposed to just unload their mana kinda like a samuri unloads his TP. Sure the abilties cost a good amount, but they were given a mammoth mana pool for a reason right? Instead of playing like a WHM, I think people should play the SUM like a BLM with the restriction not being hate, but mana. I agree that SUM need to watch their mana, but I've always remembered summoners dealing tons and tons of dmg at the cost of tons of mana. I don't think SE would break that tradition. So it's just a just a trade off, and a summoner should be able to find a balance of damage and mana spent.

Somethings I'm not clear on, and perhaps you can enlighten me to are, when you use an abilty must you wait the recast time to use any other abilty? Even to attack? And do summons attack while you are waiting for your abilty to recharge?

[Wickett]

Some responses... I'm advocating playing SMN the most efficient way possible. Square-Enix may have intended the SMN class to be many things that its not, but right now, with the current state of FFXI, SMN is MOST EFFICIENT (i.e. most useful to a general PT) as a party buffer primarily, and a BACKUP healer secondarily. Believe me, I would much rather use my avatars to beat down mobs, and I would be doing so if it were feasible. However, if you try to use your avatars for damage, you'll run out of all that mp by on the second mob in the chain, and you won't have made a significant difference in the battle. I say this as a SMN who has all the avatars, and who desperately wants to be a damage dealer, but refuses to be an obsolete PT member. If you summon an avatar (like Ifrit, one of the best damage dealers,) and tell him to assault a mob, he will keep hitting it like any other melee character. However, it will drain a LOT of your mp and Ifrit does not do nearly enough damage to justify the mp cost. To answer your question Starfire, you can only use an avatar ability once every minute. You can choose to use a PT buff, like Aerial Armor, or a damage ability, like Ifrit's Burning Strike. The PT buffs are amazing... far and away the best thing you can offer your PTs. The damage abilities are fun to watch, but they are mediocre at best, even with summoning magic skill capped. Those are the cold hard facts... you can do whatever you want with them. If you play SMN strictly as a damage dealer, you might have fun doing it, but you'll waste all your mp by the by second monster and you won't have done much damage. If you only use PT buffs and backup heal, you'll be very useful and have an easy time finding PTs, but you won't have much fun . Or, you can PT buff and backup heal, and then mix in damage abilities whenever you can (like I do.) Those are your options with SMN... it's a shame Square hasn't left me with more.

[starfire]

I understand where you are coming from then. I disagree that summons don't do enough damage, but perhaps what opinion will change once I get to play the game on a semi-regular basis.

Thank you for your calm and considerate response.

[Yarub]

Summoners use up too much MP too fast when they keep them out on the battlefield. Even a few JPN summoners told me that a good summoner uses only a couple avatars for group buffs and heals the rest of the time. Summoners use WAY too much MP for what you actually get out of them. To fight with the avatars is completely retarded. You'll use up all of your MP and create more downtime. You have to remember that a summoner has almost twice as much MP as a white mage.

[strangelove]

now i wanna be a smn also. :cry

so its,
-thf
-brd
-blm
-nin
-smn

[Geege]

Don't forget Blue mage hahahaha.

[strangelove]

-thf
-brd
-blm
-nin
-smn
-blue mage, what would a blue mages abrev. be?
-mime

[Geege]

blm.....DAMNIT.

BUM. that works.