[Fallyn`]

It's ok; Spanner is just that, a tool.

[Spanner]

Fallyn` :
It's ok; Spanner is just that, a tool.

Oh snap! I do believe I just got told.

Leave the debating to Trendy, Fallyn - he's actually good at it.

trendy.ideology :Fact of the matter is abusing chocobo jig in any endgame setting would be incredibly hard, and I can't imagine any HNM or sky or sea NM or whatever that doesn't run at high speeds, wouldn't hurt you, couldn't catch you, or would keep hate on someone out of range. Give me a real situation and examples of NMs where a DNC could use Chocobo Jig to kill something that they couldn't otherwise kill, keeping in mind hate if you involve other people, and that getting hit during the duration cancels it, and you still have to wait for recast. Hell, I'm pretty sure losing a shadow makes you lose it.

I'll confess that you got me on that one - I couldn't think of any endgame NMs that would be (much) susceptible to this cheat. If it wasn't for Rage, it could be used to keep King Behemoth or Aspidochleone occupied after a wipe. If it wasn't for the shared hate, it could be used to occupy one of Vrtra's pets. It COULD be used to kite Qn'Aern or Kf'Ghrah around, reducing the need for a sac pull or reducing the number of folks required to otherwise deal with these pets - but those are popped mobs, and therefore nothing that multiple groups will be in contention for. (On the other hand, if my LS was waiting for a turn at Jailer of Fortitude or Prudence, and the alliance ahead of me wiped except for one dat-swapping DNC that kites the NM around until they recover, I might be irritated.) I have to concede the point.

Edit;
I forgot to mention that you clearly have no concept of what it means to "hack" something.
This is a modification. Using existing data from the game. It's no different, logistically, than swapping the music around, or disabling calls.
Different ethically and philosophically, yes, but not logistically.

This was a very weak attack - particularly since "cracking" is actually the preferred term for what you describe. I could counter by suggesting that YOU don't know what it means to "hack" - the fact that you're moving files from folder to folder may be different than actually rewriting code or providing a module to intercept packet streams and resend them with modified data (I've never written or examined a POS hack or other crack, so I'm not sure how the popular cheat applications are actually implemented; I have more than enough computer programming background to theorize, however), but in both cases you're altering the game software. The directory layout for Final Fantasy XI can be considered part of the game's programming. Just because it's a part that is easy for players to interpret and alter to suit their needs does not change the fact that you are changing the game software.

Prove to me that Chocobo Jig has practical application to cause harm to other players by circumventing a few seconds of being rooted in place.
Extra credit if you can justify it as "hacking".

Explain to me what kind of "proof" would satisfy you? Preferably "proof" that doesn't involve locating and shadowing shady-looking DNCs for days at a time, Frapsing their every move, until I see them do something abusive. Failing to satisfy unreasonable demands does not mean that I fail to support my viewpoint.

In the end, I'm guessing it's going to come down to a matter of opinion. I feel folks shouldn't mod, since it lends itself to abuse. Others, probably you included, feel that the misdeeds of a few shouldn't prevent the conveniences that modding provides for the many.

[trendy.ideology]

Spanner :

Fallyn` :
It's ok; Spanner is just that, a tool.

Oh snap! I do believe I just got told.

Leave the debating to Trendy, Fallyn - he's actually good at it.

I do tend to make a career out of it, so to speak.

trendy.ideology :Fact of the matter is abusing chocobo jig in any endgame setting would be incredibly hard, and I can't imagine any HNM or sky or sea NM or whatever that doesn't run at high speeds, wouldn't hurt you, couldn't catch you, or would keep hate on someone out of range. Give me a real situation and examples of NMs where a DNC could use Chocobo Jig to kill something that they couldn't otherwise kill, keeping in mind hate if you involve other people, and that getting hit during the duration cancels it, and you still have to wait for recast. Hell, I'm pretty sure losing a shadow makes you lose it.

I'll confess that you got me on that one - I couldn't think of any endgame NMs that would be (much) susceptible to this cheat. If it wasn't for Rage, it could be used to keep King Behemoth or Aspidochleone occupied after a wipe. If it wasn't for the shared hate, it could be used to occupy one of Vrtra's pets. It COULD be used to kite Qn'Aern or Kf'Ghrah around, reducing the need for a sac pull or reducing the number of folks required to otherwise deal with these pets - but those are popped mobs, and therefore nothing that multiple groups will be in contention for. (On the other hand, if my LS was waiting for a turn at Jailer of Fortitude or Prudence, and the alliance ahead of me wiped except for one dat-swapping DNC that kites the NM around until they recover, I might be irritated.) I have to concede the point.

Word.

Edit;
I forgot to mention that you clearly have no concept of what it means to "hack" something.
This is a modification. Using existing data from the game. It's no different, logistically, than swapping the music around, or disabling calls.
Different ethically and philosophically, yes, but not logistically.

This was a very weak attack - particularly since "cracking" is actually the preferred term for what you describe. I could counter by suggesting that YOU don't know what it means to "hack" - the fact that you're moving files from folder to folder may be different than actually rewriting code or providing a module to intercept packet streams and resend them with modified data (I've never written or examined a POS hack or other crack, so I'm not sure how the popular cheat applications are actually implemented; I have more than enough computer programming background to theorize, however), but in both cases you're altering the game software. The directory layout for Final Fantasy XI can be considered part of the game's programming. Just because it's a part that is easy for players to interpret and alter to suit their needs does not change the fact that you are changing the game software.

I can't say I'm not intentionally harsh.
I'll try this nicely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_%28computer_gaming%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_cracking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_%28computer_security%29

Without getting too detailed, hacking is more security based, less software mod based.
Cracking is more circumvention based, disabling things, etc.
Modding is exactly what dat swaps and such are. Draw your own conclusions from there, but file directories martyred as part of XI's programming is a huge stretch.

Prove to me that Chocobo Jig has practical application to cause harm to other players by circumventing a few seconds of being rooted in place.
Extra credit if you can justify it as "hacking".

Explain to me what kind of "proof" would satisfy you? Preferably "proof" that doesn't involve locating and shadowing shady-looking DNCs for days at a time, Frapsing their every move, until I see them do something abusive. Failing to satisfy unreasonable demands does not mean that I fail to support my viewpoint.

Honestly real scenarios that would be more than just "possible", would satisfy me.
Like, demonstrating that there's a likelihood of abuse, not just possibility.
Logic is fine, you don't need to truly prove wrongdoing.

In the end, I'm guessing it's going to come down to a matter of opinion. I feel folks shouldn't mod, since it lends itself to abuse. Others, probably you included, feel that the misdeeds of a few shouldn't prevent the conveniences that modding provides for the many.

There's many evils in the world, and there's many evils in FFXI.

In real life, we all speed, come to rolling stops at stop signs when no one is around, and make conscious decisions to break other small laws we deem insignificant or bendable.

In FFXI we do the same.

In real life law enforcement has bigger fish to fry, 99/100 times, and wont really go after the guy doing 10 over the speed limit, or coming to a rolling stop, etc.

In FFXI, they do the same. They've got bigger fish to fry than the guy who's gaining a slight advantage in certain areas via dat modding. The resources required to stop people from dat modding just aren't feasibly spent on such a small problem, it's a cost/benefit analysis. High cost, small benefit.

[Amanada]

The tone of this thread is going in a way that I am tempted to send an email to SE with a link to this thread.

It was not really even that long when the a big banner hammer was smacked on glitching and exploiting the game intentionally.

[pathwriter]

... you bumped a thread that's been dead for damned near a year to say that? Congratulations.

[Carynaira]

The tone of this thread is going in a way that I am tempted to send an email to SE with a link to this thread.

It was not really even that long when the a big banner hammer was smacked on glitching and exploiting the game intentionally.

Cool story Hansel.

[Tzaellia]

... you bumped a thread that's been dead for damned near a year to say that? Congratulations.

Haha. Ama, I'm gonna have to agree with Pathwriter on this one. This was long dead and you actually brought it back into the light for others to see.

[nefarious.lover]

They see me .dat modding, try to catch me modd'n dirty.

They hate'n.