[Ducky]

Just got it ^^ but is there any uses for it other than zerg with CATA before hand? because from my understanding without top notch max haste gear it wouldnt really come close to even RC zerg? I want to make the most out of it but other than just a toy are there any other uses for it? (fyi, zerg wise i use a rune chopper along with 15% haste in gear, 1 off haste cap cause i dont have homam ><)

[Merkury]

For helping LS mates break trial weapons.

[Cloudius]

You need a min of 18% haste with BZ for it to out do an RC.
Although RC has the advantage of DAs, Drks can get a max of 22% haste in gear,
and the closer you get to that the more BZ will out do your RC.

[Mojopojo]

I wouldn't say BZ is ever better than RC unless you have Apoc.

[Cloudius]

Mojopojo :
I wouldn't say BZ is ever better than RC unless you have Apoc.

Do da math!

[Mojopojo]

I did, I guess I'll post it here too. It's a slightly different approach at zerg math, although I think it's a more useful way to look at it. I'm too lazy to remove the KC info as this is BZ vs RC although I'm sure most will find it interesting anyway.

I used FFXI Calculator to determine the delays for the different set ups. It caps gear haste at 25%(rounding down correctly on the individual pieces), magic haste at 43.75%, and seems to do Hasso and Desperate Blows correctly as well, so I'm pretty confident in the results. Recent testing has suggested that these numbers are slightly off, although they appear to be accurate to the 1/256th~ degree or at least on par with the accuracy of other zerg math.

It's an attack speed comparison between three different set ups - Kraken Club(DRK/DRG), Rune Chopper(DRK/SAM), and Bahamut Zaghnal(DRK/DRG). Haste is optimized for all three set ups, Gloom Breastplate being used in each case. I didn't include slots that would be used for HP or accuracy as they aren't relevant in this comparison. The first column is the piece of gear, the second how much haste it adds, and the third the sum total of gear haste.

Kraken Club[Delay: 264]

Walahra Turban   12/256  12/256

Dusk Gloves +1   10/256  22/256

Speed Belt       15/256  37/256

Homam Cosciales   7/256  44/256

Homam Gambieres   7/256  51/256

Wyvern Earring   12/256  63/256

Blitz Ring        2/256  64/256

Bahamut Zaghnal[Delay: 480]

Walahra Turban   12/256  12/256

Dusk Gloves +1   10/256  22/256

Speed Belt       15/256  37/256

Homam Cosciales   7/256  44/256

Homam Gambieres   7/256  51/256

Blitz Ring        2/256  53/256

Rune Chopper[Delay: 504]

Rune Chopper     23/256  23/256

Walahra Turban   12/256  35/256

Dusk Gloves +1   10/256  45/256

Speed Belt       15/256  60/256

Homam Cosciales   7/256  64/256

Homam Gambieres   7/256  64/256

There are other choices to reach the Haste cap on RC and KC. Blitz Ring can be swapped with Wyvern Targe if you have access to Bloodbead Ring, although the difference is minimal. The other options for RC, namely namely using either Sable Cuisses or Chaos Burgeonet +1 and Homam Corazza, are much more significant. Either way, this is the geared used for the numbers. Brutal Earring and Pole Strap will be used for Rune Chopper.

Assuming 43.75% magic haste cap and whatever FFXI Calculator assigned to Desperate Blows III and Hasso, the final attack speeds would be the following.

KC: 82.5  1.375   0.73~

BZ: 52.5  0.875   1.14~

RC: 33.5~ 0.558~  1.79~

The first value is the actual delay. The second value is the same number converted to seconds. The final value, the inverse of the second, gives you swings per second. This doesn't yet take in to account the multi hit procs on the weapons. KC hits an average of 4.5 times a swing, RC would be 1.07(Brutal + Pole Strap), and BZ would be 2.0. The result, hits per second, is the following.

KC: 3.27~

BZ: 2.29~

RC: 1.92~

If FFXI Calculator is doing Hasso and Desperate Blows correctly(which I'm pretty sure it does, the values for each DB merit are slightly under 5% and everything else seems to be accurate), then this is a pretty good estimate for how many hits per second you'll be getting with each weapon assuming a maxed haste set up. There are large percentile differences, but they are in the same ball park. You also have to consider base damage between the three weapons. KC is 11, BZ is 24, and RC is 88. If the damage done every hit was scaled perfectly to match these numbers, Rune Chopper would be the clear winner, but it just doesn't work that way. I think the best way to look at this is to take these numbers and scale them in the following way.

DpH * HpS = DpS (Damage per Hit * Hits per Second = Damage per Second)

KC is going to have the lowest damage per hit but the highest number of hits, so it would make sense to scale the other weapons according to that.

DpH(BZ) * HpS(BZ) = DpH(KC) * HpS(KC)

DpH(BZ) * 2.29    = DpH(KC) * 3.27

DpH(BZ)/DpH(KC)   = 1.43~



DpH(RC) * HpS(RC) = DpH(KC) * HpS(KC)

DpH(RC) * 1.92    = DpH(KC) * 3.27

DpH(RC)/DpH(KC)   = 1.70~

In other words, you'd have to hit 1.43 times as hard with a Bahamut Zaghnal than you would with a Kraken Club in order for them to perform equally. You'd have to hit 1.70 times as hard with a Rune Chopper than a Kraken Club for them to be equal. This includes Souleater damage. For RC vs BZ, you would only need to hit 1.19x(19%) harder with RC to overcome the difference in hits per second.

Now, there are a few things you need to consider here. Rune Chopper has a base damage of 88, Bahamut Zaghnal has a base damage of 24. The DMG rating is not a precise indicator of how much base damage you'd hit for, although it is a large and significant difference. Parses I've done seem to point at around 100~(non critical) base damage per swing with RC on Kirin and B2 with Soul Voice Minuets and Dia II. I don't have enough data on BZ to give a good estimate on base damage per swing.

This is also an optimized(bar relic) BZ build vs a non optimized RC build. An optimized RC build has more HP than an optimized BZ build. The RC build would also have a slightly higher hits per second due to Homam Cosciales/Gloom Breastplate being subbed out for Sable Cuisses/Homam Corozza.

Another point to consider, although it deviates from the 'perfect zerg' comparison, is how much the high base damage per hit helps you. In a practical scenario, you will be taking damage and cures will not come instantly. Your Souleater damage will suffer. The chance of death(consequently doing much less overall damage) is also greater. This is alleviated when you're hitting almost twice a second and netting 100 HP per hit.

Either way, I think that RC hitting for a little less than 20% more than BZ is well within the realm of feasibility. I've got them both, although I don't have Dusk Gloves +1 and I'll admit that I haven't used it as much as I'd like to feel completely confident. The math does pan out though, and from parses and testimonials of others who have used both extensively, RC does seem to be the winner unless you have Apoc.

[Xrave]

Your BZ numbers are "off." Since you're using /DRG with the earring to cap gear haste, you're actually losing 5% haste overall from not using /SAM and Hasso.

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=p...3509360#3509360

Edit: and you need a second point of reference to compare damage before SE.

[RKenshin]

Agreeing with Mojopojo.

I've done a good 10-20 or so zergs with both weapons, and BZ zerg highs have never passed my highs with RC. In addition, on paper RC will have a higher potential damage ceiling to begin with.

Of course this is all assuming you don't have Apoc.

[Cloudius]

RC can get a max of 52-54 hits in 30s
504-93.3% = 33.768 /60 = 0.5628
30 /0.5628 = 54~

BZ can get an avg of 77 (with 39 low and 116 high) hits in 30s
480-90.3% = 46.56 /60 = 0.776
30 /0.776 = 39~
39 x 2 = 78~

# of BZ hits in 30s > # of RC hits in 30s

BZ > RC

lolbasedmg

Unless you think a diff of 64 base dmg and the diff in skill lvl and your att and the mobs def would favor the RC
more than the 24-62 more potential hits of raw dmg that the BZ would do?

The RC build would also have a slightly higher hits per second due to Homam Cosciales/Gloom Breastplate being subbed out for Sable Cuisses/Homam Corozza.

You can use Homam body with BZ too~
It would be a guaranteed 3 hit w/e the TA proc!

[Mojopojo]

DRK/SAM was used to calculate the attack speed for the BZ build, it's just a typo that I didn't catch for the second time. Anyways...

You're truncating your math at points where it does make a difference, I sincerely believe my numbers are more accurate.

[Cloudius]

Mojopojo :
DRK/SAM was used to calculate the attack speed for the BZ build, it's just a typo that I didn't catch for the second time. Anyways...

You're truncating your math at points where it does make a difference, I sincerely believe my numbers are more accurate.

Nah our numbers are pretty much the same, and Im only truncating the final results where it says "~"
Only diff is you think RC's base dmg is gonna make up for the 22 more hits of souleater that BZ would do
which I highly doubt ;/

[Mojopojo]

You're not adding gear haste up the right way(It's not as high as the listed value)
You've rounded Hasso and Desperate Blows.
You've rounded the magic Haste cap down to 43.3% as opposed to 43.75%.
You didn't incorporate double attack/triple attack in to Rune Chopper.

The end result is you putting RC at 0.563 delay while my number is 0.558. This is somewhat close. However, the delay you've produced for BZ is much higher than it actually should be at 0.776 while my value is 0.875.

[Cloudius]

Parser agrees with my math unlike your FFXI Calculator, it would show sme number of hits as I have intisipated.
But fine have it your way I'll use 0.875 as BZ's delay
30 /0.875 = 68.571428571428571428571428571429 (Not truncated happy?)

There BZ still wins kthxbai

[Xrave]

Cloudius :
You can use Homam body with BZ too~
It would be a guaranteed 3 hit w/e the TA proc!

You would have to use Gloom for BZ due to needing the haste in the legs and head slot.

Well not you specifically, but everyone else without an Apoc.

[Cloudius]

Xrave :

Cloudius :
You can use Homam body with BZ too~
It would be a guaranteed 3 hit w/e the TA proc!

You would have to use Gloom for BZ due to needing the haste in the legs and head slot.

Well not you specifically, but everyone else without an Apoc.

True True, I keep forgetting I cheat with cata .-.