[Kras]

I can survive as a dnc/sam against 2 drks in ballista for a long enough to take one of em out. Every damn job in this game is useful, just because you people have your heads up your asses don't mean the job sucks. MP is overrated

[Kaparu]

Splendid! Because, you know, I've been sitting here, wracking my brain since early this morning, desperately trying to figure out a way to include Dancer in general end-game events and, by god, I think you've figured it out!

I mean, its just so simple! You can hold off not one, but two Dark fucking Knights at the same time! Its all so clear to me now! My sincerest thanks for this epiphany.

[Cream Soda]

As much as I love ballista, whats that have to do with endgame? (btw those sams must suck because 2 souleater guilltenes would effectively take a dnc out if they do it at the same time)

[Kras]

I got really lucky on that one actually. The 1st DRK missed his Souleater and then i managed to anticipate the 2nd one with Third Eye.
Endgame wise if you see a dnc/nin doing anything he should be kicked in the head. For endgame dnc must have /sam

[shinjaku]

Heaven knows Ballista is a true demonstration of one's real end-game utility.

Thats just a quick way to figure out if you really know what your doing, duh (especially 1 on 1 with a friend that comes to test your skills as a dnc).

I mean if your too dumb that you simple dont know what your abilities are to begin with then your right "true demonstration of one's real end-game utility" is correct.

you know, I've been sitting here, wracking my brain since early this morning, desperately trying to figure out a way to include Dancer in general end-game events and,

Sitting on your arse thinking "what ifs" and "how to add" dont really get you and closer to an answer because only your brain was dreaming up fantasy, it did not impliment anything logical, practical or tried to make your assumptions bout DNC valid.

To be optimal is to be the most efficient. The two are nearly, if not, synonymous. On the same token, both terms are subject to the practicality of the solution of the situation at hand.

1. This game has so many factors that if you want to be really efficient you just need to be prepared, know what your doing with what you have and just do it.

2. Endgame mobs do not do things exactly the same way everytime (hint look up the meaning random).

Since your so smart you should get my point here:

To be optimal = with what you have, know whats possible and how to impliment your skills with what you have at your own job disposal.

To be the most efficient = getting the job done with as little wasted effort as possible. (you need to know yourself 1st).

Add someone else to this equation and the rules change.

Better yet why dont you level Dnc and see 1st hand if your thoughts on it are correct

Just remember 1st impressions can sometimes be debunked later on by others that have spent more time on same job buddy.

Some things change and some others remain the same (only change is their package or outward appearances).

As much as I love ballista, whats that have to do with endgame?

Ballista, you try and figure out new ways to getting things done on a single player/team field. No exp loss and dont waste the efforts of other that show to kill the NM.

Endgame you already know what your doing and have your skills sharpened. Does not matter if your job is a hybrid or an original, do your damn job and all leave knowing you all did your best. Sucks to know that someone with an ability did not make use of it and thinks just cause they got uber gear equates innate real skill as a player.

[Kaparu]

Kill yourself.


Immediately.

[Spartan]

I was going to pick apart your post line by line, but it's 2:35 AM and I'm tired so I'm not going to bother. Instead, I'll sum up my retort with one line:

You think Ballista results are indicative of endgame utility.

[trendy.ideology]

Optimum
Optimal

"the greatest degree or best result obtained or obtainable under specific conditions.



Efficient
Efficiency

"performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary."






If you're going to suggest I look up words, I strongly suggest you do the same first. Especially since I will, and you clearly have not.


If you still think the words are synonymous and contextually identical, then I truly am done arguing with you about anything, only to resume once you have a basic understanding of the English language and it's many nuances.


I really didn't think I'd have to resort to derogatory comments and blatant ad hom with someone I was on familiar terms with, but frankly your desire to argue has dwarfed and overshadowed your ability to debate, and with an absence of the former, there's no point in engaging in the latter.

I've provided you with facts and relevant information and all you've responded with is sub-par repartee that you only wish was witty.

[Spartan]

trendy.ideology :
Optimum
Optimal

"the greatest degree or best result obtained or obtainable under specific conditions.



Efficient
Efficiency

"performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable: a reliable, efficient secretary."






If you're going to suggest I look up words, I strongly suggest you do the same first. Especially since I will, and you clearly have not.


If you still think the words are synonymous and contextually identical, then I truly am done arguing with you about anything, only to resume once you have a basic understanding of the English language and it's many nuances.


I really didn't think I'd have to resort to derogatory comments and blatant ad hom with someone I was on familiar terms with, but frankly your desire to argue has dwarfed and overshadowed your ability to debate, and with an absence of the former, there's no point in engaging in the latter.

I've provided you with facts and relevant information and all you've responded with is sub-par repartee that you only wish was witty.

The definition of "optimal" is subjective to your goal. Back to your KC DRK vs. soloing argument, how is it optimal to bring 18 people (assuming at least some of them want a reward for coming) to something you could solo if your goal is to get the drop? In this case, that which is most optimal is also most efficient. The two often go hand and hand, as Kaparu said.

[shinjaku]

I stand corrected then

Dont use DNC endgame ok, cause you think it cant work out in endgame activities then

[trendy.ideology]

Efficient is using the jobs skilled players already have leveled.

Optimal is telling people to go level something useful instead of dancer.


I knew someone was going to make that stupid point. Please go back and read the posts, the implications from Kaparu's side were not ones of reasonable optimality and efficiency.

Its a contradiction in itself. Anything that resists enough to warrant additional help via steps, you don't want a Dancer smacking around.

60 TP every 3 minutes, being used on abilties that depend on the accuracy of a single-handed, B-rating weapon; That's what I call reliable.

Point taken, in its entirety.




Albeit, that doesn't change the fact that they don't belong in an alliance.

I fail to see the issue with demanding optimization.

If you can take the time to level Dancer to 75, you can take the time to level something useful to 75 as well.

I should hope that the line is pretty apparent. Jobs superior to Dancer in all aspects of end-game utility are in extreme surplus, while the sheer amount of money required to create an optimal Kraken Club Dark Knight is just a hair short of absurdity.

You know you're the last person I prefer to argue with, but I may encourage you to do the same. To be optimal is to be the most efficient. The two are nearly, if not, synonymous. On the same token, both terms are subject to the practicality of the solution of the situation at hand.

Optimal == Efficient.


By his own words, he's demonstraited that there's clearly a line of usefulness and optimality that must be met, and he's also completely skirted the subject of defining it.

DNC isn't good enough to be in the ally, despite it's ability to generate a positive TP flow and significantly debuff the mob, but unnammed job X is better and an acceptable choice.

He's plenty willing to dismiss anything that doesn't fit into his view, and talk up the "Facts" of his side of the argument, yet supplies no facts or clear definitions of the things he's discussing.




Do you read his posts and honestly think that efficiency is being kept in mind?

He's an elitist prick even more than I could ever be, and if he found out someone in his shell was 75dnc and not other jobs, that person probably wouldn't be welcome in the alliance even if they were short people or just not full. And that's by his own words, and it has nothing the fuck to do with being smart, logical, or efficient.


I'm fucking sick of arguing with people who lack the proper critical thinking skills and just spout off whatever comes to mind.

[Spartan]

trendy.ideology :
Efficient is using the jobs skilled players already have leveled.

"Fuck it, let's just take what we have" is the benchmark for efficiency.

[Kras]

Why are all of you people in this forum when none of you have DNC lvd and have no clue what the job is capable of.

[Cream Soda]

Kras :
Why are all of you people in this forum when none of you have DNC lvd and have no clue what the job is capable of.

hmmmm?

[Kaparu]

Why would you quote me on things I have already admitted to be completely inaccurate? Hell, you even quoted where I admitted they were completely inaccurate.

And you people wonder why I opt not to bow out gracefully on occasion. Please.

Honestly, I've tried to take both of our little arguments down to a civil level already, and you seem to be resisting every single one of my attempts. If you want to throw a hissy fit because you're not getting the support you wanted for your case(s), that's your prerogative, but I'm not going to continue to exchange ideas with you until you empty the fucking beach out of your vagina.

[Spartan]

Kras :
Why are all of you people in this forum when none of you have DNC lvd and have no clue what the job is capable of.

Your profile says your DNC is 72, so unless that's outdated, you have about as much expertise with DNC with regards to endgame as I do.

You don't need to control the character to see what it's capable of doing. That being, feeding a mob TP or hitting for zero/missing, and missing steps on anything bigger than a Greater Colibri. Please, I beg you, show me one thing an average Dancer can do that an average other job can't do better. Because I haven't seen it.

Being a subpar replacement isn't good enough.

[Katyadu]

I just love it when ppl post on forums to give their input and opinions, because that is really what the forum is for, and then get bashed for not arguing correctly.

Because trashing ppl is the most helpful tool ever!

[Kras]

Spartan :

Kras :
Why are all of you people in this forum when none of you have DNC lvd and have no clue what the job is capable of.

Your profile says your DNC is 72, so unless that's outdated, you have about as much expertise with DNC with regards to endgame as I do.

You don't need to control the character to see what it's capable of doing. That being, feeding a mob TP or hitting for zero/missing, and missing steps on anything bigger than a Greater Colibri. Please, I beg you, show me one thing an average Dancer can do that an average other job can't do better. Because I haven't seen it.

Being a subpar replacement isn't good enough.

Umm yes you do need to play the job to know what it can and cant do. Every person out there uses each job to their own liking and basing how good the job is on one person is stupid...
If you saw a Rdm/war in dunes tanking you would think that rdm are tanks from what you are saying

[Joshster]

Jesus. This thread went to hell. DNC makes 'some' endgame things easier. Its not the best job. Anyone that claims it outperforms endgame is an idiot. It 'IS' a fun job and its nice to play around with and experiment. And to the guy talking about DNC @ Ultima.... he must've sucked to be that awful. Almost anyone that did actually level DNC to 75, did it for fun. We knew immediately that it really wasn't useful endgame.

Some things a DNC can be good at (doesn't mean they are the best) and are fun to play around with:
1 - KS99 turtle
2 - Merits
3 - Sky gods
4 - Nyzul assault
5 - Limbus
6 - Dynamis

If you are trying to throw DNC at an HNM, expecting something out of us, then you will be let down. Events that are 'easier' is where DNC has its fun until SE decides to make us more useful. And I agree with Kras... level DNC then you can come argue points here.

[Spartan]

Kras :
Umm yes you do need to play the job to know what it can and cant do. Every person out there uses each job to their own liking and basing how good the job is on one person is stupid...

What are you talking about? Differences in playing style aren't going to allow a DNC to land steps on Tiamat, or hit him at all or for more than zero. Not only that, but furthermore no where in any of my posts did I specify that I drew my conclusions from observing one specific Dancer.

Kras :
If you saw a Rdm/war in dunes tanking you would think that rdm are tanks from what you are saying

Just... no.