[[Bariss]]

WAR is the melting pot of ugly gear in game anyway lol

PLD is the melting pot of ugly gear in game anyway lol

Corrected.

[Aweschitt]

Well, in reality unicorns > dusk has always been kind of a preference thing being that uni is an HP based latent. With /sam I imagine you get hit more often, and the full time 2% would be better than a less often 3%... so the Aurum would be like if dusk and adaman had cute little babies.

/sam with less protection to keep the latent on uni's active, maintaining constant 2% haste, plus acc and att increasing your ability to use meat, sounds to me like Aurums pretty much own unicorn. 1% haste thats not even full time active pales in comparison to full time stats like Aurum in a job where if your doing it right, youre gonna get yer face pounded occasionally.

I'll be goin after a pair, thats for sure.

True on the PLD, you guys really are some ugly MF's lolololol

[Kayos]

trendy.ideology :




My stance boils down to the fact that it's easier to be a decent axe/axe war/nin than it is to be a decent gaxe war be it /nin or /sam.

I understand what you are saying, but I kind of disagree. It is much easier to be a decent GA war imo because of:

1) much higher skill cap (A+ weapon)
2) bonuses to 2-hand weapons (str and dex)

I have almost 50 more attack when I equip GA vs. axe/ridill.

So even people with less than stellar gear get a huge benefit by just using GA vs. axe/axe.

trendy.ideology :

P.s. do you really prefer the acc/atk/dec over the +1% haste on feet? I use unicorn. >.>

constant 7 acc, 5 att, 3 dex > 1% haste that isn't even fulltime. You should look into getting them for sure and then sell your uni boots.

[Kaparu]

Aurum Sabs are a thing of beauty, unless you're running with SV Marches and Feint, I wouldn't even recommend them over Uni+1/Dusk+1.

[trendy.ideology]

Bah, I just got and signed those.

I spose on the plus side if I make the transition over to gaxe and do my assaults for perdu, that's like a free 2+ mil from selling man and jug.



See, I have no doubt I can do more damage with gaxe than with axe/axe... These arguments are mostly about other people.

I don't see the average person with the assault rank to get perdu, or even with byakko's...

I have seen and outparsed plenty of wars with close to identical gear, or superior gear on some occasions, including ones with GAXE. Maybe that's a skill thing, and my foot will be in my mouth once I get perdu and set up my war/sam macros. But this is what I was looking for, someone with facts and experience to speak from. Some of the ones I've exp'd with have been perdu even. So it all adds up to skill, then, I guess.


I know that overall gaxe puts out more damage. I've said as much and that's not being contested.

I know it gets higher WS numbers, but I cannot say I agree with the earlier statements made by Kaparu that it has a better WS, I think it's the higher ACC and ATK, and nothing to do with the weaponskillself, but that remains to be seen when I test it firsthand.

gaxe /nin outperforming axe/axe has yet to be seen, but like I said, I'd be willing, neigh, happy, to let you show me, and admit defeat if it happens. (Though if it's only by a few % I'm totally calling it gear, and calling them somewhere near identical.)

[Kaparu]

So, basically what you're telling me is, no matter how right I am, and how completely and utterly pen-and-paper this really is, my word means absolutely nothing because I lack an E.Body?

Awesome.

[Dart]

I'd say because you aren't a war Matt. Get back to the orgy with me and your family D<

[Kaparu]

Married/Married/Engaged!

The only one you'll ever have a chance with is me.

[trendy.ideology]

And yet, people do this with Seigen on a regular basis.

Who are these people? Are they SAM or WAR and are they leading the parser or tanking defensively in the absense of a traditional tank? How are they geared? Are the exceptional players or average players? How much effort are they putting into the party?

The whole, "I've never had anyone out-parse me doing X" has never, under any circumstances been an accurate measure of how effective something is.

Right. Because "THESE GUYS I KNOW SEIGAN TANK ALL THE TIME LOL" is an accurate measure of how effective it is, too.

The majority of winning a parse lies exclusively in how attentive you are, and how quickly you get to the next target. You want to see how well something compares? Compare it yourself. You may have identical equipment to the guy next to you(which, in regards to the topic at hand, would be retarded), but you're not the same player. I've told you this on numerous occasions.

I could have sworn you were privy to my prior comments regarding my intent to do so, but up to that moment in time, I reiterate the fact that I've only got my observations to go by.

As to the person inquiring as to why Great Axe is actually optimal, it basically boils down to:

-Raging Rush is a better weapon skill than Rampage

-Higher pDIF

-Higher Accuracy

A better geared WAR/NIN GAXE had a higher average WS by ~150.
He had decent gear.
Point being, I don't know how much better the WS is, if I'm using a way lower base damage and still WS'ing in the same ballpark, I'd say Rampage is the better WS and RR just benefits from higher base damage.

Back to this, "I haven't seen" nonsense. Tim, do you understand who you play with? Half of those players have some level of diagnosable retardation, and the other 40% are just flat out incompetent. That said, I know for certain that you, more often than not, accept pick-up parties, which are just oozing with exemplary candidates for this not-so-fantastic state of the playerbase.

Do you honestly think I just parse against shitty players or people who are clearly afk or not paying attention?

I wouldn't mention it unless I thought they were at least decent... hell, I wouldn't be in the party if they weren't up to a certain minimum standard. Just because I do mostly pickup parties doesn't mean I'll party with just anyone. The party I had last night was parsing 21.5k/hr.

Anyway, while I'm fully aware that there are a few things in Final Fantasy require first-hand experience(which I have, thank you), this certainly isn't one of them. The differences between the two classes of weapons is purely mathmatical. You hit (slightly)harder, and more accurately, as per the 1:.8 strength and dexterity conversion, and you use a (slightly)better weapon skill. All this, even before considering the fact that your net TP-gain is raised considerably by subbing Samurai.

I beg to differ on almost all accounts.
Most things require first hand experience, not some.
I thought I conceptually understood WHM.
I thought after 66 levels on my own on SMN I understood healing and such.
It took playing a 75whm in extreme situations and upgrading all my gear and meriting T1 and T2 to really come to terms with what it really meant to play WHM v.s. just conceptually discussing and understanding it, and even then I'm overwhelmed by how much more room for growth there is.

As to your proposed experience, I have a 75WAR I can go suit... I can't say the same for you. I'm aware of many things you have experience with, like MNK, which I'm inclined to believe when you discuss it. WAR? Not so much. And first hand experience goes a long way with WAR, too. I've watched people in real life transition from non-WAR melee to WAR, and come to grips with how much of a horse of a different color it is in practice, instead of on paper.

Back on topic, I don't really comprehend what my experience(or lack thereof, as you're suggesting) has anything to do with the completely mathematics-based dilemma we're throwing around. Based on the damage formulas currently dictating the numbers that you see on your screen, there is no reason a Great Axe wouldn't outperform a dual-Axe build. As its been stated numerous times already, you're more accurate, you hit harder, your TP-accumulation is considerably more reliable, and your bread-and-butter weapon skill is more powerful, albeit, ever so slightly.

If you truly believe I am inferring that one instantaneously begins shooting beams of divine sunshine out of their orifices due to their having gripped a Great Axe, then it is my genuine pleasure to inform you that you're misunderstanding my point in its entirety. I am simply calling as it is; One type of weapon is, generally, superior to the other. Is the difference earth-shattering in any way, shape, or form? Of course not. You won't find much in this game that causes such dramatic change in one's play. And, as we've discussed in-game over, and over, and over, you're supposed to be enjoying yourself, and if dual-wielding two virtual axes is what gives you your pixelated jollies, then far be it for me to stand in your way. However, if someone asks which is technically better, I'm going to tell them.

If this were so math based, I don't understand why you've yet to show any compelling math to support what you're saying, the debate here has been 99% about GAXE war/nin outperforming AXE/AXE war/nin, and my argument has been that the 15% DWII and 5% suppa DW adding up to a 20% increase in DPS and a slight increase in TP gain outweigh the supposed benefits of GAXE., when both players are subbing nin.

---

If you think all this is just because I enjoy being a dick or something you're mistaken.


You do not need Adaberk to discuss WAR.

You do need more than rainbows and unicorns to impress upon me your knowledge and expertise of WAR. Kayos actually provided somee factual points of interest like the amount of extra attack he gains on WAR, and his gear setup, and things like 6 hit setup for /sam, which is yet another reason I think GAXE needs to be /SAM to outparse axe/axe. He didn't point out anything that really supported the superiority of gaxe war/nin but he did mention some things that make it slightly more believable.

All you did was quote back to me what I already mentioned about the stat conversion rates for 2handed.


Do you honestly think I should weigh your word the same as his, even if we're just talking about gear and experience? But mostly, it's because his information was significantly more relevant to what I was discussing.


Btw: Still looking for a WAR/NIN with GAXE to outparse me. Kayos said he'd come smack me around a bit /SAM in a merit party, and I'm all over that shit, cause I'd like to see what it can do first hand, since I'll probably go that route eventually, but before that day comes I'd still like to see someone /NIN put me in my place.


(Also I'm pretty sure that the conversion is .75 unless wiki's info about 3:4 is wrong)

But say you've got around 100 str for TPing and 100 dex.

you're getting .25 more than axe/axe using gaxe.

100 / 2 = 50 = +50 atk/acc from STR/DEX for axe
((100 x 3) / 4) = 75 = +75 atk/acc from STR/DEX for gaxe

So +25 atk/acc more, kayos uses meat and might have full STR merits and more STR gear than pictured here to get his +50 atk (And perdu might help, along with higher skill).

So, significant acc boost, mild atk boost, for gaxe, over axe, from the 2hand update, but the real question is, does that, plus a slightly higher average WS, do more damage than 20% Dual Wield, when both players are /nin?

(/sam is a dead horse, anyone I outparse war/sam is either gimpy or retarded, or just not as good as I am, so outparsing them is a moot point)

[Kaparu]

Sorry, but all I got out of that was, "You were right, like you generally are, however, in the future, like now, I will never take your word for it until you have someone who's opinion meets my fancy to back you up."

Lets get something straight, Alch(considering you find your name to be overly condescending), Warrior is not hard. Being a damage-dealing job in a merit party is not hard. Its just another whom has to swing their while juggling while trying to stay alive with . Just because you only happen to be around to pick apart the things I conceptualize that I can't prove to you, doesn't mean I don't conceptualize things that go off without a hitch. And, quite frankly, you know that I do things on a daily basis that require an amount of focus and reflexive strength that most players don't have, so why you think I would utterly fail at any given melee-job is beyond me.

Anyway, as I said in the other argument we're choosing to publicly display, I have a PM box on KI, a PM box on BG, an Email address, MSN, and AIM, all of which you're aware of; Pick one.

[trendy.ideology]

Perdu is 11.43 DPS
Maneater and Jugg have an averaged DPS of 10.115
Before DW adjustment
12.138 after


Attack +18, Accuracy +5 on maneater.

Accuracy +5 and Attack +10 on perdu.

cancel the similar numbers;
+8 atk for axe/axe, +30 for jugg = +38 atk

So, take Kayos's +50 atk - 38 and Perdu is up by 12.

Very conservative in favor of gaxe's +atk.

So +25 acc from my earlier math, and +12 atk and slightly higher WS damage

V.s. +0.708 DPS. and slightly faster TP gain.



This is why I say axe/axe is superior with both players /nin.


Is 25acc and 12 atk and slightly higher WS damage >= .7 DPS and faster TP build?

That's what this boils down to. And that's against the best gaxe besides relic in the game. In fact DW on those axes is almost at gaxe relic dps.

The gap just gets bigger and bigger for any lesser dps gaxe.

There's some real numbers, enjoy.

[Kaparu]

Is 25acc and 12 atk and slightly higher WS damage >= .7 DPS and faster TP build?

One thing you need to keep in consideration is that the boosts to accuracy aren't so black and white. The difference between Great Axe accuracy and Axe/Axe accuracy isn't just ~25, its the threshold between eating meat, and needing a Madrigal to eat meat effectively. The difference becomes much clearer when your songs go from March/March/Chaos to March/Madrigal/Chaos.

[Dart]

Just because there is a goalie in the net doesn't mean you can't score? ...But hey, you are kind of cute there Matt... ;D

[Blackmoon]

<3 you nick, how you been?

[Virginia]

ws can be a big prob tho....i've noticed more and more these days that with "functional" equipment, Raging Rush is a bit more stable than Rampage....a friend of mine (decently geared, not completely uber, but about 33% there), was doing as high as 1300 area Rampages, but his lowest was 126. average around 600.

a crappy g axe war meriting with us was doing highest about 1000 area, and dipped to 126 as a low....keep in mind g axe guy was wearing absolute shit, and his average RR was around 500-600 area.

friend was /nin, crappy guy was /sam, i was /sam.

me, wearing my middle of the road drk stuff hating guillotine was having acc issues only on the weapon skills, WITH a goddamn abyss cape was doing 500-1200 on guillotines with an average of about 650 (crappy, i know). switched to great sword, and had less problems with my A- weapon, (700-1100 damage wses, averaging 900 i'd say).

wtf is this?

[Aweschitt]

Virginia :
ws can be a big prob tho....i've noticed more and more these days that with "functional" equipment, Raging Rush is a bit more stable than Rampage....a friend of mine (decently geared, not completely uber, but about 33% there), was doing as high as 1300 area Rampages, but his lowest was 126. average around 600.

a crappy g axe war meriting with us was doing highest about 1000 area, and dipped to 126 as a low....keep in mind g axe guy was wearing absolute shit, and his average RR was around 500-600 area.

friend was /nin, crappy guy was /sam, i was /sam.

me, wearing my middle of the road drk stuff hating guillotine was having acc issues only on the weapon skills, WITH a goddamn abyss cape was doing 500-1200 on guillotines with an average of about 650 (crappy, i know). switched to great sword, and had less problems with my A- weapon, (700-1100 damage wses, averaging 900 i'd say).

wtf is this?

I think your problem is in here somewhere, relating your DRK prob to my war... I lack the experience with DRK to tell you directly so I hope this answers what your looking for Vr.

Theres lot of factors involved. Multi-hit is only sick if you have the equipment, merits, food, subjob, and support (brd/cor/rdm) to back it up.

Multi-hit ws are always unstable due to the number of factors that make the disgusting damage.

Did you land every hit?
How many times did crit proc? (rampage/RR has a TP based crit modifier, guillotine does not)
How many times did DA proc? (/SAM not applicable unless you have a brutal) Im not even sure DA can proc on guillotine....
Songs?
COR rolls?
Food?
Mobs def, and resitance to damage type? (axe is slashing and Gaxe is blunt iirc)


The only way to stabilize a multi-hit ws is accuracy, and even that will only do so much once you factor in all the other things. But acc is the greatest contributor to multi hit ws higher and more consistant damage. Your friend with the really off the wall damage average changes needs more acc, thru merits or gear, and his rampages will even out. It wont eliminate a 300 rampage, but it will make it much more rare.

On birds in Nyzule, I average around a 1000-1200 rampage but spike in the 1600's, highest ever was 1803 (on birds)... But I have the stuff necessary to back all that up, I chew mithkabobs even tho they steal em, 5/5 str merits, 8/8 axe, adaberk, galka, blah blah And this is with my A- weapon.

If your Gilloutines are falling flat, you need to look at how much acc you lose when you swap to your WS gear and see if theres a reasonable place you could drop in some acc instead of your WS modifier, STR etc. You can pretty much live by the statement that it doesn't matter how strong a WS is if it misses.

What WS did you switch to on GS, spinning slash i assume? Spinning slash is a single hit with TP damage multipliers and its base Modifiers are STR 30% and INT30% which DRK has alot of. SS also has A TP based Damage modifier.... I'm going to guess you don't WS at 100% TP every single time you hit it, because only retards who enjoy wasting TP on a mob with 5% health or ppl with a death wish do that. So you have a damage increase in that

Guillotine is a 4 hit WS, no TP based damage multiplier, and has STR 25% and MND 25% lol. Granted STR is the greater modifier, but I'm gonna go on a limb here and say your drk has more INT than MND and at a higher modified % on Spinning slash. That would explain your stalbilization in consistant damage when you swapped to GS. Add some acc to your guillotine WS gear macro and you should see an increase and more consistant higher damage. Your damage on guillotine is going to be 90% based on acc and crits, with help from all the other possible modifiers... songs, food etc. (Suggestions: try a potent belt, try your o-hat, keep an acc ring on instead of swapping for STR) Play with it a bit until you find the sweet spot

With Gaxe being A+ weapon and the 2-handed weapon stat boosts they added.... if I dumped 8 merits into greataxe I think consistant damage would be higher on average because acc, att and dmg would be higher and /SAM would make up for the lost DoT. But it would most likely cut the rediculous spikes down to less often being that RR s only a 3 hit ws = less chances for crit and DA procs.

Sorry for the randomness of the way I explain things... I'm pretty sure I have A.D.D. lol