[Temadian]

Actually thats why I was still playing up until a couple months ago. But once 60s were done Id leave ff11 and hop onto WoW, or now, WAR. The thing these games have over ff11 is the constant ability to do matches. Please dont mention diorama, that takes far more effort to get started then hoping into a random BG. Yes Ive actually set up many diorama so dont even start with that

[Didopop]

Blacklist eh. Nice feature. Didnt even realize it was on here.

Problem solved. Go ahead and have your WoW conversations and lurk the forums of game you claim is pathetic and never going to change. Its kinda pitiful but have fun with it. But if its such a bad game why are you still here rofl.(Rhetorical question...i wont even see your reply if you do.)

[Temadian]

reading comprehension is your friend tool.

Oh wait Im on his blist. Like I said, I was only still playing for the ballista. Because like we said, there was still decent matches on Siren. However, when I noticed an abundance of sam/rngs crop up, I decided it was turning too much like fenrir and time to take a break. Im sorry people, but sam/rng does not = skill. Its playing in easy mode and it really waters down good matches.

Now if you people want to be like Didopop and hide from people just because they have different opinions, go for it In over 10 years of playing mmorpgs Ive put 1 person on ignore haha And thats because i was in the middle of kiting and they started spamming with the same thing for about 2mins straight, And even then the only reason i ignored was to watch my screen while kiting

[Lucavi]

Who said it was garbage? If you've bothered to read any of my posts in this thread instead of "zomg the word WoW was in his posts -- HE MUST BE BASHING FFXI!!!", you'd have easily seen that I've been offering constructive ideas on how to adjust ballista to get more people into it. I've also explained why many things that WoW does in their PVP system would not work in FFXI's system. If you consider that bashing, you need to take a reading comprehension class.

About the only "bashing" I've done is claim (truthfully) that SE will not adjust ballista in the slightest, because this game was never made for PVP, and the developers (all 6 of them) have no interest in reviving a dead concept in a game that was half-heartedly introduced in the first place.

If that frustrates you, then take your frustrations up with SE, not with other companies, nor the fans that enjoy their concepts, and CERTAINLY not those that have been active, productive members of the ballista community for years. Tema and myself were some of the most famous, talented, and respected ballista players on Hades -- up until it died a stinking, twitching, slow death.

Go ahead and have your WoW conversations and lurk the forums of game you claim is pathetic and never going to change

Tell us then, hot stuff: when's the last time SE has adjusted ballista? How long has it been? How many years has it been? Its easy to bash someone -- its hard to win a debate against them. Here's your chance: prove to everyone here (like... all 3 of us, as the forums resemble a ghost town, much like non-TOAU zones/cities in FFXI) that SE has an active and vested interest in both ballista, and the dwindling fanbase that enjoys/ed it.

I can't wait for this, but I know what I'm going to see: another brutish, back-handed post talking about how WoW sucks, its fans suck, or how nobody cares about logic and evidence in the face of the overwhelming douchebaggery that spews from your fingers behind your monitor. But, by all means, take a crack at disproving me with your massive post-count and obvious fan support.

[Aeonknight]

Who said it was garbage? If you've bothered to read any of my posts in this thread instead of "zomg the word WoW was in his posts -- HE MUST BE BASHING FFXI!!!", you'd have easily seen that I've been offering constructive ideas on how to adjust ballista to get more people into it. I've also explained why many things that WoW does in their PVP system would not work in FFXI's system. If you consider that bashing, you need to take a reading comprehension class.

About the only "bashing" I've done is claim (truthfully) that SE will not adjust ballista in the slightest, because this game was never made for PVP, and the developers (all 6 of them) have no interest in reviving a dead concept in a game that was half-heartedly introduced in the first place.

If that frustrates you, then take your frustrations up with SE, not with other companies, nor the fans that enjoy their concepts, and CERTAINLY not those that have been active, productive members of the ballista community for years. Tema and myself were some of the most famous, talented, and respected ballista players on Hades -- up until it died a stinking, twitching, slow death.



Tell us then, hot stuff: when's the last time SE has adjusted ballista? How long has it been? How many years has it been? Its easy to bash someone -- its hard to win a debate against them. Here's your chance: prove to everyone here (like... all 3 of us, as the forums resemble a ghost town, much like non-TOAU zones/cities in FFXI) that SE has an active and vested interest in both ballista, and the dwindling fanbase that enjoys/ed it.

I can't wait for this, but I know what I'm going to see: another brutish, back-handed post talking about how WoW sucks, its fans suck, or how nobody cares about logic and evidence in the face of the overwhelming douchebaggery that spews from your fingers behind your monitor. But, by all means, take a crack at disproving me with your massive post-count and obvious fan support.

If one was bored enough (and let's face it, not like these forums have anything else going on), one could argue that though SE has not directly updated ballista since.... Royale, that the tweaks and changes made to each job are in itself a change to ballista.

Even if unintentional, SE has done plenty of tweaking to ballista. Status resistance building over time, the introduction of Hasso/Seigan, re-adjusting the RNG's "sweet spot", 5 new jobs, group 2 merits of jobs old and new, new gear, and even now new WS's.


Though it doesn't have a big "for barrista onry" sticker on it, these little things do in fact change the way the game is played, for both PvE and PvP.

[Lucavi]

You're grasping. That happens in every game. I didn't ask "when is the last time SE introduced something that changes a minor aspect of ballista?". That's far too easy -- you could simply say "last version update/emergency maintenance". I asked "when is the last time SE had adjusted ballista?" specifically. IE, putting a "ballista" section on their version update notes, with changes listed under it. You know, how they do for every other faucet of the game that they adjust over the years. You know.. like they used to, nearly 3 and a half years ago.

I know what you're trying to say, and you're correct to an extent, but if you honestly believe that trying to shoot for a C- on the "test" just so you can say "at least I passed it!" is a logical (and intelligent) way to respond to the question, then I don't know what to tell you. Regardless of whether putting in a new job, or changing a job ability classifies as having somewhat of an influence of the ebb and flow of ballista, outright ADDRESSING and UPDATING/ADJUSTING ballista and its related content is a far more clear indicator of how much said company actually cares about that actual facet of the game. Hell, a simple "yeah guys, we know you want ballista changes -- they're on the way soon", would be better. But yeah, this is the company that doesn't respond to its player-base. This is the company that doesn't allow its own players to test content on test servers before releasing said buggy content into the game, then having to scramble to patch it 2 days later. This is the company that considers an un-killable boss sitting around for 3 years unbeaten outside of using various exploits (all later patched!) is "working as intended", with no hints or clues other than a cryptic video with a dev. team with multiple 2hrs.

But you know this, and I know this. You know that SE cares not about it, and I know this. You know that PVP in FFXI is so dead that it resides on less than 10% of all servers in a fully-functioning form, and I know this. You know that its gotten so bad that people have had to actually switch servers just to be able to catch a match now and then, and I know this. We all know this. You can choose to stick your head in the sand and deny it, or you can wake up, like the rest of us. Its your call.

Honestly though, whether you wake up or not, its still not going to change that the ballista you see here, and what you've seen for the past 3+ years, is the same ballista you'll be seeing until the servers shut down. PVP has no place in a JMMOG -- they've made that painfully obvious. Kudos to the community for trying to dredge it out this long, but to call it on its last legs would be an understatement.

[Blackr4v3n]

Face it, ballista is dead, Gelwain and Tema speak true.

[Aeonknight]

It ain't dead until every server has match cancellations. And from what I hear Fenrir is still going strong, Odin has it's matches, and a few other servers that I can't remember off the top of my head.

Ballista being dead on servers such as my own aren't just cause SE decided to stop updating it. It's because both

1) The server size determines the participation size normally. Bigger servers = bigger matches, even by your 10% estimate.

2 and prolly the more obvious reason) Because most of the playerbase didn't start playing FFXI for PvP. How could they when for a period of time it didn't exist? (talking about the people who been here since the beginning.)


Considering how much of the player base overall doesn't give a damn about ballista except as an occasional way to waste time till Fafnir's window is open, we're probably lucky SE took it as far as Royale (even though imo the rules were absolute dog shit.)
To start updating now would please the minority (10% as you say). It's just good business sense to go with what the majority wants. Even Blizzard is like that. You can't really blame SE for ballista being reduced to a mere shadow of what it was 3 years ago.

[Temadian]

How can you even say ballista is a shadow of what it once was. Its barely twitching alive in most cases. Fenrir is only strong because most people who wanted to ballista transferred there. I was there, the level of ballista was poor though. Im sorry but ballista is nothing close to what it was years ago.

[Aeonknight]

Anyone that was there 3 years ago could tell you that. But Ballista is Ballista, quit bein picky and go smack em upside their collective heads =P

[Lucavi]

It ain't dead until every server has match cancellations. And from what I hear Fenrir is still going strong, Odin has it's matches, and a few other servers that I can't remember off the top of my head.

Every realm in WoW is pretty much bustling with "PVP", and yet we still complain there, and for legitimate reasons. World PVP is almost dead, which is arguably the most fun. Its been reduced to ganking and and the occasional Guild squabble at a few summoning points. Battleground PVP is going strong, but hasn't been actively "updated" in awhile. We complain there a bit because of a few glaring imbalances and an overall lack of new BGs placed in. Arena is always updated, but we complain because the game shouldn't be balanced around 2v2 and 3v3 matches.

Players should be critical of the game they play. Its foolish to stick your fingers and your ears, screaming "LALALALALALAAA I CAN'T HEEEAAARR YOUUUUU!!!!", and pretending that the state of affairs is perfectly rosey all the time. Ballista exists on about 3 servers in FFXI. That's not "alive and well". When the grand population that wants to engage in PVP has to transfer to one of 3 out of at least 20 servers just to get a shot at PVP, that's worth complaining about.

Complaining and being critical does not mean you dislike the product. It does not mean you should "go somewhere else", nor does it mean you should ignore the problems. In most games, things get fixed because people complain about them.

The largest problem with SE is that they don't communicate at all with the player-base. Again, it would be so easy to just pop into a forum or leave a message on POL, at least talking to the community; apologizing; something. They refuse to do it. Everything is "working as intended" to them, and when that's all they say, you have to assume that they no longer care about that aspect of the game.

Ballista does things right, and it does things wrong. But a product, and especially an online product, is supposed to be dynamic: its supposed to upgrade, to change, to evolve. Ballista does not evolve. A new job comes in (and performs poorly outside of blue mage, as cor, pup, dnc, and sch aren't all that hot amongst the sam/rng WS spam), and a few jobs get a tweak, or one new ability (woo formless strikes!), but that is not a direct change to ballista. Hell, putting in an additional SONG for ballista would constitute an upgrade at this point.

I noticed your little buddy hasn't responded to my challenge. Its clear that he has not because he cannot, at least correctly. But you, Aeon, continue to try to grasp at straws and cling to the notion that everything is sunny; everything is fine in the world of ballista. That's why things are so empty, because everything is fine. That's why these forums are dead, because everything is fine. That's why FFXI is continuing to expand its player-base (not), because everything is fine. That's why people have to server hop (paying as they go!) every 3 months to try to chase the blips that are active ballista servers: because everything is fine.

Companies love players like you, Aeon. The ones that never strive for change. The ones that never rock the boat. The ones that never force the company to become accountable for their actions. The ones that never stimulate progress in what should be an active and dynamic genre of PAID entertainment. I'm sure you're happy with AV being un-killable by any normal means for the past 3 and a half years, because hey, people still try to kill it, right? I'm sure you were happy with the devs admitting that Pandemonium Warden was supposed to last over 10 hours, because hey, they said it, so its working as intended, right? I'm sure you're happy with SE marketing an entire expansion pack with a few rehashed zones (yet they couldn't even upgrade the sky and clouds), some new re-skins of beastmen models, and a plot that is wafer-thin. Hydra corps. where? Shadow Lord where? Its been nearly a year.

Just keep paying your monthly payment and enjoying your single server with more than 8 people per match. I'm sure every other server agrees with you (including Hades, with its one ballista match per 2 months!), that everything is just, just fine.

[Aeonknight]

Every realm in WoW is pretty much bustling with "PVP", and yet we still complain there, and for legitimate reasons. World PVP is almost dead, which is arguably the most fun. Its been reduced to ganking and and the occasional Guild squabble at a few summoning points. Battleground PVP is going strong, but hasn't been actively "updated" in awhile. We complain there a bit because of a few glaring imbalances and an overall lack of new BGs placed in. Arena is always updated, but we complain because the game shouldn't be balanced around 2v2 and 3v3 matches.

Players should be critical of the game they play. Its foolish to stick your fingers and your ears, screaming "LALALALALALAAA I CAN'T HEEEAAARR YOUUUUU!!!!", and pretending that the state of affairs is perfectly rosey all the time. Ballista exists on about 3 servers in FFXI. That's not "alive and well". When the grand population that wants to engage in PVP has to transfer to one of 3 out of at least 20 servers just to get a shot at PVP, that's worth complaining about.

Complaining and being critical does not mean you dislike the product. It does not mean you should "go somewhere else", nor does it mean you should ignore the problems. In most games, things get fixed because people complain about them.

The largest problem with SE is that they don't communicate at all with the player-base. Again, it would be so easy to just pop into a forum or leave a message on POL, at least talking to the community; apologizing; something. They refuse to do it. Everything is "working as intended" to them, and when that's all they say, you have to assume that they no longer care about that aspect of the game.

Ballista does things right, and it does things wrong. But a product, and especially an online product, is supposed to be dynamic: its supposed to upgrade, to change, to evolve. Ballista does not evolve. A new job comes in (and performs poorly outside of blue mage, as cor, pup, dnc, and sch aren't all that hot amongst the sam/rng WS spam), and a few jobs get a tweak, or one new ability (woo formless strikes!), but that is not a direct change to ballista. Hell, putting in an additional SONG for ballista would constitute an upgrade at this point.

I noticed your little buddy hasn't responded to my challenge. Its clear that he has not because he cannot, at least correctly. But you, Aeon, continue to try to grasp at straws and cling to the notion that everything is sunny; everything is fine in the world of ballista. That's why things are so empty, because everything is fine. That's why these forums are dead, because everything is fine. That's why FFXI is continuing to expand its player-base (not), because everything is fine. That's why people have to server hop (paying as they go!) every 3 months to try to chase the blips that are active ballista servers: because everything is fine.

Companies love players like you, Aeon. The ones that never strive for change. The ones that never rock the boat. The ones that never force the company to become accountable for their actions. The ones that never stimulate progress in what should be an active and dynamic genre of PAID entertainment. I'm sure you're happy with AV being un-killable by any normal means for the past 3 and a half years, because hey, people still try to kill it, right? I'm sure you were happy with the devs admitting that Pandemonium Warden was supposed to last over 10 hours, because hey, they said it, so its working as intended, right? I'm sure you're happy with SE marketing an entire expansion pack with a few rehashed zones (yet they couldn't even upgrade the sky and clouds), some new re-skins of beastmen models, and a plot that is wafer-thin. Hydra corps. where? Shadow Lord where? Its been nearly a year.

Just keep paying your monthly payment and enjoying your single server with more than 8 people per match. I'm sure every other server agrees with you (including Hades, with its one ballista match per 2 months!), that everything is just, just fine.

By all means keep labeling me when you've yet to actually figure out what my opinion is.

You think I'm happy my server is a dead zone now?
I dont remember ever once saying ballista was perfect and that SE was doing an a-okay job with it (at least not recently). Hell awhile back I believe I even stated that some of YOUR suggestions would be rather nice if SE implemented them (the ballista specific gear one iirc.)

Yea it would be nice to have a direct update to ballista, but until the rest of the playerbase is fine and dandy, you're not gonna see it. And no amount of crying is going to fix that. For now just enjoy it for what it is, if that's even possible for you. If not, enjoy WoW, although you apparently bitch about that as well. There really is no pleasing some people.

Look... both of us want ballista to come back. Both of us want SE to make creative, fun changes to it like they do the rest of the game.
One of us actually still plays the game.
Whenever possible at least

[Lucavi]

There really is no pleasing some people.

Effort pleases me. When a company that is paid to perform puts effort into what they're paid to be doing, that pleases me. Yes, people have complaints about WoW PVP. Some are valid; some are not, however, when the complaining stops is when we get a response from a blue post (official WoW staffer) about an issue, or a blue response on a forum. We stop because they show us that they are listening, and have either explained that they are working on the issue, or are giving us a reason why they are not working on the issue.

That is what makes a satisfied customer.

FFXI is the polar opposite. The customer has no idea when something is coming, or even -if- something is coming. You've been sticking your fingers in your ears in this thread, and even if you do come around trying to say that "I know there are problems too", if you aren't going to even voice a sense of dissatisfaction, and instead tell others "things are okay... on MY server, at least...", then you're acting like part of the problem.

When the online community got up in arms over the PW boss fight, to the extent that it made the headlines of online news publications and sites (hell it even made it on Yahoo.com, abiet with poor journalism), SE was quick to respond to the issue. That marks the -ONLY- time that SE has ever directly responded to the player-base on an issue that we viewed as so reprehensible, that they anticipated subscription cancellations. And as a result, they responded. That's called damage control. More accurately, that's called business. They are a company, after all.

Your method is the opposite. You tell others that compare FFXI PVP to another Game's PVP to "leave", or to "PM your comments", instead of engaging in free discussion. You stick your head in the sand, claiming that since your server still has active PVP, then the system must still be alright. You state that since you're still having fun with it, then that's all that matters.

To be frank, and I state again, your method is what SE loves best. Your method ensures that ballista will never be updated, because your method doesn't have any ramifications in SE's eyes. You'll just play until ballista dies on your server, then pay the transfer fee and hop to another server. Your way ignores the problems, instead of at the very least, vocalizing the desire for change.

Its cool though, really. You can keep claiming that "some people are never satisfied". Apparently LOTS aren't satisfied, because there aren't LOTS playing ballista, now are there? But yes, blame the player, not the company. Blame the one that pays the fee, instead of the one that collects the fee. Its easy to just tell the player to quit if they hate it so much, instead of telling the company to change it if players hate it so much. You want someone to quit rather than voice dissension, but then you'll be the one complaining when your server's ballista is dead.

Your logic is incredible, and I truly hope you continue to enjoy your ballista games. You are the perfect customer for SE -- its a shame they don't reward you with some in-game side-grade trinket.

[Aeonknight]

Again with putting words in my mouth. Why not try reading my entire statement instead of 1 snippet to write a novel on, eh?

I have yet to tell you or Temadian to gtfo when it comes to comparing WoW aspects to FFXI aspects in a slight hope that despite the fact that comparing both games is as productive as comparing apples and oranges it might actually help our little problem, because it was at least on topic.

What got everyone's panties in a bunch was a few pages back, when you 2 went yammering on about WoW or even WAR.
Guess what? It's both off topic and out of place.

You do once you've got full S4 -- those guys have a blast, Tema.

But I mean, its similar in just about any game. You're not having fun if you're the one getting ass-raped. Nobody likes the guy with shit-tastic gear in FFXI's ballista being a GB whore and allowing the enemy to have a much easier time of winning. Its like the "summoner" complex: who honestly wants a smn unless they're doing nothing but popping astral flow?

The difference in WoW's BGs is that you have a form of gaining strength that comes through actually doing the BGs, and really they're the only way to attain that level of strength: World PVP doesn't give enough honor (hopefully this changes in WotLK), arena gives the two top sets, but that comes with its own host of problems. If the best gear for ballista came through ballista with the requirement that you only had to participate, and then grind it endlessly (with the winners getting it faster, but losers still getting it eventually), you'd have all kinds of trash rejects eventually seeding their way into ballista, and "ruining" it for the few "purists" left.

There will always be a new way to scale and attain progression, and there will always be a flaw with it: no imperfect creature can create a perfect thing.

Honestly, though, if they wanted to combine "fun" and "get your phat loot" in one, they'd simply have a colleseum split in two, that can hold up to 50-100 people in it. Alliance vs. Horde, and every three minutes the gate opens up on each side, which serves as the starting-zone/GY for each faction. The only rule in the pit is that Alliance and Horde have 3 minutes to kill the entire opposing faction. You get a good chunk of honor for each kill (like 25 points), but if your side wipes the entire other side, you get 350 bonus honor. After 3 minutes, the game resets.

More importantly, the draw would be that the game never ends. You leave the "BG" when you want, with no deserter status, but if you AFK, you get the usual boot. Anyone still behind the gate when it opens and closes gets automatically booted, but without deserter status -- you have to be in the pit to get any honor kills, and as such, to get deserter status if you AFK there.

Seating in the pit is split half and half for alliance and horde, with a full line of NPC bouncers in between each side. Everyone can hear everyone, so you can have people screaming at you from the stands if you're kicking ass or sucking face. The people watching can also help to flag inactives as AFK. Again, they come and go as they please.

Please tell me what any of that has to do with FFXI or fixing ballista? Cause I don't see it. That's where the gtfo comments stemmed from.

Instead of making any effort in game to make an improvement that could lead to the revival of ballista on any server, you put it in SE's lap and say "fix it". And even better, you now decline to participate which makes you part of said problem that has you bitching @ and about SE. Ballista's revival will come from people playing it again, duh, whether that comes about from SE adding a toy to be acquired from it or from a sudden influx of people thinking "I wanna kick your ass", they both work.

We get the point. You don't like SE's customer service, kept you 1 too many hours on hold. You've done nothing but say the same thing in every thread you come into contact with, with the ONLY originality comes from when it's about WoW, ironically. I might be grasping @ straws to you, but at least I'm not using CTRL + C to raise my post count.
Besides my friend, you happen to be SE's favorite kind of customer too. You became that when you clicked "I accept" at the prompt every time you logged in, agreeing to put up with their bullshit and to do it with a smile.

The initial 2 hander update, the one that was seriously messed up could be considered SE taking immediate action as a result of the playerbase's reaction. Namely, THF going more emo than any of us have ever seen (and for good reason).


And that in game trinket you mentioned? They're called Chevrons, how many do you have?

If you truly want your complaints to be heard, then try sending shit to SE directly. Try posting on a forum that is officially recognized/read by SE. Go to a friggen convention and be one of the people asking the dev team directly "when can we expect an overhaul for ballista?"
Until then, it's just talk.

[Temadian]

I used to shout start times for ballista hour or 2 in advance in attempts to get people to go. After falling on deaf ears, people actually arguing with me in shouts because of it. I decided that nobody wants ballista on the server I was on and left. People can try in game to revive it, but it fails hard.

And god, do we want to start this discussion, chevron count...lmao its easy to get golds when your server rarely does matches, or everyone else sucks Chevron count is stupid, its usually people who just score whore and dont help the team at all that usually go for chevron count first.

[Aeonknight]

I used to shout start times for ballista hour or 2 in advance in attempts to get people to go. After falling on deaf ears, people actually arguing with me in shouts because of it. I decided that nobody wants ballista on the server I was on and left. People can try in game to revive it, but it fails hard.

And god, do we want to start this discussion, chevron count...lmao its easy to get golds when your server rarely does matches, or everyone else sucks Chevron count is stupid, its usually people who just score whore and dont help the team at all that usually go for chevron count first.

I had a feeling someone would misinterpret that.
No the chevron count wasn't some half assed attempt at flexing my epeen. If I want to do that a Light SC suffices just fine.

It was more of a "how many insignificant in game trinkets are you guilty of having too?"

Sorry but the "holier than thou" attitude coming from him just cause he up and cancelled his account as a form of rebellion against SE, but still holds himself to be a ballista activist is rather annoying.