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Dear SE: Favouritism notice merits

#1
User is offline   Nattack 

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derp...

nice...


oh would you look at that, itd take me 18 merits to do what a scholar takes 3 for. and i cant even cap all of them.


/fume

i swear i'd use some of them if it were even remotely feasable to merit them. any of them. seriously.

or perhaps something useful.. like utsusemi san. can we get some reps in here to tell me how exactly im supposed to play ninja? am i supposed to not be able to use every spell to their full potential as these merits say (unlike scholar)? because the mystic's macc+10 sure says otherwise -.-
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#2
User is offline   Skeelo 

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I dont understand why ninjas cry so much about having more tanking abililities. You have the ability to sub what ever you want and still have shadows. Everyone knows Uts:San would break the job, and thats why they havent added it. And hardly any ninjas use their tools to keep hate sadly. nin/drk can already keep hate from pretty much any pld so dont really need much more hate tools. I know ninjas are gonna flame me for this, and i am a pld so im semi-biast against other tank jobs. but ninjas are just fine they dont need any fix.
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#3
User is offline   Evicerator 

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QUOTE (Skeelo @ Sep 10 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I dont understand why ninjas cry so much about having more tanking abililities. You have the ability to sub what ever you want and still have shadows. Everyone knows Uts:San would break the job, and thats why they havent added it. And hardly any ninjas use their tools to keep hate sadly. nin/drk can already keep hate from pretty much any pld so dont really need much more hate tools. I know ninjas are gonna flame me for this, and i am a pld so im semi-biast against other tank jobs. but ninjas are just fine they dont need any fix.



either you've never seen a PLD/NIN or your PLD/NINs suck ASS.

I won't toot my horn too much, but I'm a damn decent NIN/DRK, but I can't hold a candle to the DURABILITY of a PLD/NIN.
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#4
User is offline   Nattack 

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i mentioned nothing of tanking, notice how im pointing to a comparison of ninja's and scholar merit categories of enhancing our spells.
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#5
User is offline   Skeelo 

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No i am a very good pld and anyone on my server can back me on that. its just nin/drk can spam all sorts of things to get hate, example souleater, last resort, blind, sleep, stun, ninja tools, list list goes on. Pld/nin has flash...and on occasions gets to cure theirself or someone else. Sentinel and rampart can only go so far. Its not about saying the player is bad or not, so doubting my pld skills has nothing to do with this. I'm saying Nin is fine and if you dont think the job is good, then dont lvl it.
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#6
User is offline   Amastacia 

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QUOTE (Skeelo @ Sep 10 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I dont understand why ninjas cry so much about having more tanking abililities. You have the ability to sub what ever you want and still have shadows. Everyone knows Uts:San would break the job, and thats why they havent added it.


I don't see the OP whining about wanting more tanking abilities.

In fact, it looks much more like whining for a single good meritable ability. Subtle Blow barely qualifies. Same with Nin. Tool Exp. Everything else is utter shit. The two that aren't utter shit are so miniscule that in typical play you will be hard-pressed to notice the difference.

I tend to agree that Utsu: San is silly, but I'd love something like Dual Wield enhancements (since you get increasing returns on lowering delay vs. lowering TP once you break below where the floor used to be, and thus there's less penalty to losing more delay).

QUOTE (Evicerator @ Sep 10 2008, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
either you've never seen a PLD/NIN or your PLD/NINs suck ASS.

I won't toot my horn too much, but I'm a damn decent NIN/DRK, but I can't hold a candle to the DURABILITY of a PLD/NIN.


This.

I won't toot my horn too much either, but I'm also no slouch, and he's got one of the two big points dead on the head.

Here's the second:

QUOTE (Skeelo @ Sep 10 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And hardly any ninjas use their tools to keep hate sadly. nin/drk can already keep hate from pretty much any pld so dont really need much more hate tools. I know ninjas are gonna flame me for this, and i am a pld so im semi-biast against other tank jobs. but ninjas are just fine they dont need any fix.


Lack of durability (and self-sufficiency) means that while a PLD is both keeping themselves alive and generating boatloads of hate in the process, a NIN is bleeding hate constantly and using enmity-generating spam to try to build it faster than they lose it.

Seeing as how there isn't a single mob that's even of noteworthy difficulty which doesn't hammer you with huge magic damage, it puts NIN at a decided disadvantage since shadows don't help except blinking single-target spells and NIN has dick-all for useful magic damage reduction. Here is the big killer: PLD takes that damage better, and then uses their most effective long-term hate generators to recover from that damage, all while keeping Utsusemi to negate most physical and single-target magic damage.

NIN is in giant need of a fix because it's simply inferior to PLD as a tank (especially with wtfupdate after wtfupdate PLD is receiving, each of which makes it better and more versatile, while NIN gets jack all), simply inferior to any 2her as a DD, and is thus left as an undesirable generalist who happens to be very good at soloing and small-grouping (which only gets you so far, depending on your in-game interests).

QUOTE (Skeelo @ Sep 10 2008, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No i am a very good pld and anyone on my server can back me on that. its just nin/drk can spam all sorts of things to get hate, example souleater, last resort, blind, sleep, stun, ninja tools, list list goes on. Pld/nin has flash...and on occasions gets to cure theirself or someone else. Sentinel and rampart can only go so far. Its not about saying the player is bad or not, so doubting my pld skills has nothing to do with this. I'm saying Nin is fine and if you dont think the job is good, then dont lvl it.


Souleater and Last Resort aren't spammable (but I assume you're hyperbolizing here), nor do they generate absurd amounts of hate. Either is significantly weaker than Provoke when it gets right down to it.

NIN/DRK can't spam Blind since DRK never learns it.

Stun, Sleep, Bind, Aspir, and in certain circumstances Absorb-MND are all good hate spells, but you have to balance your MP use vs. MP recovery. Plus, all have fairly long recasts so you're stuck cycling them and inserting NIN debuffs (which are a nice way to slowly build CE, but are not terribly high-hate spells) to balance your MP use rate and fill empty space.

List pretty much stops there.

PLD has some of the most useful hate tools and tanking spells (Flash, Cure III, Cure IV, Reprisal), some of the best JAs (Rampart, Sentinel), some of the best merits (category 1 and 2), and some of the best tanking gear (especially general magic damage reduction when you can't count on or don't have the support for an elemental resistance build) in the game.

I don't blame you for not seeing what poor shape NIN is in. Most players in the mainstream won't ever see it. When everyone is run-of-the-mill, NIN doesn't fare too badly. A really, really good NIN will shit all over decent players of other jobs.

There's a reason, though, that you see a lot of the well-geared, skilled, long-time NINs complaining, and it's because we're the ones who love the job thoroughly and continually run into its shortcomings as we try to push it as far as our own abilities can take it, and find that it runs out of gas long before many other jobs in most situations.

I'll be frank here, I would love a chance to play my NIN more often, but for most of what I do in FFXI, it brings far less to the table than either of my other jobs, especially with the people that I play with. My SAM is a better DD than my NIN can hope to be, and since we have so many good PLDs, it's rare that it's more useful to bring me on NIN to tank than on SAM or RDM. I pretty much use it for small-grouping now where its versatility is quite handy, but even in that arena, my SAM and RDM get more and more play (especially since SAM can DD tank as well as or better than NIN and mitigate damage just about as well).
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#7
User is offline   Caiyuololz 

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Well put, Amastacia. I'm in very much the same position. I just recently started to sell my DD NIN gear just because of the fact that between BLU and SAM, I haven't seen my NIN in action once in the last month. The only thing I'm ever even using it for now is small-group Omegas with nin/drk, so it's just kind of a bummer not to get to put NIN to as much use as I'd like. I wasn't even aware that I'd be a completely capable tank as SAM in salvage when I first started, so really the opportunities for my NIN are just dwindling. I do lurve me some NIN/DRK, though. I just hope that there will more chances for NIN/DRK or just NIN itself to excel in the future. :<

Anyway, this was originally about merits, and yes, the OP makes a good point in the SCH comparison. I would've been completely fine with something like +1 Macc/Matk per merit for 5/5 towards all elemental ninjutsu, or even 2 categories for +2Matk to elemental and +2Macc for enfeebling per merit. Would it -really- help me a ton? Probably not, but it'd still nice to feel the merits were useful. lol
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#8
User is offline   Skeelo 

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ok i do agree with most of the things you listed here, and i apologize if i came off sounding like a prick, but i have plenty of ninjas in my ls that tank very well as nin. And no matter what i come up with im not going to win being in the ninja forums trying to win a pld vs. nin debate. Pld is most of the time the better option for tanking, which i know might upset most nin. And i completely went off topic and it was just and out of no where rant so im sorry about that. But yes Nin should atleast get a dual wielding trait they could merit, subtle blow is great for soloing but pretty meh for everything else. And magic att+ i dont see being that helpful since most nin dont nuke anymore anyway, but i guess merits would acually give them a reason. but thank you amast for bringing that stuff up i guess i kinda see why there is fuss now. ok im getting out of the nin forums before i get stabbed
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#9
User is offline   Amastacia 

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No stabs for people who aren't hard-headed assholes.

Admitting that those who don't agree with you aren't necessarily completely fucknuts insane and wrong goes a long way to being taken seriously.

There are definitely jobs in worse shape than NIN at the moment (BST, SMN in particular), but if you talk to most of the people who really push it hard, NIN needs a lot of help.
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#10
User is offline   Livaud 

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QUOTE
NIN is in giant need of a fix because it's simply inferior to PLD as a tank


before i get flamed for this post or start a flame war, let me say i realise the benefits of Nin's tanking vs Pld's tanking, but unless i am mistaken SE never intended Nin to be a tank, as such i doubt the fix will come anytime soon
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#11
User is offline   Rhayve 

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QUOTE (Livaud @ Sep 11 2008, 03:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
before i get flamed for this post or start a flame war, let me say i realise the benefits of Nin's tanking vs Pld's tanking, but unless i am mistaken SE never intended Nin to be a tank, as such i doubt the fix will come anytime soon


Nagi
(Katana) All Races
DMG: 37 Delay: 227
Magic Accuracy+10 Enmity+10
Augments "Mijin Gakure"
"Blade: Kamu"
Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk.
Occasionally attacks twice
Lv. 75 NIN

Wait, what?

Anyway, to add something useful to this thread, I agree that the Job specific merits that are available to NIN are pretty poor in comparison to other jobs. They could have given them Elemental Ninjutsu damage potency or debuff potency, as in, not for single spells, but for all of them, or perhaps Casting time reduction, much like what WHM can merit for Cure casting speed.
As for Group II... I don't know, from what I've heard, the San spells aren't too great, so maybe instead of changing the meritable options, SE could simply give the spells as such a boost.
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#12
User is offline   Spartan 

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Good Ninja merits:

Utsusemi Recast
Dual Wield
Offensive Ninjutsu Accuracy and Potency
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#13
User is offline   Nattack 

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QUOTE (Spartan @ Sep 10 2008, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good Ninja merits:

Utsusemi Recast
Dual Wield
Offensive Ninjutsu Accuracy and Potency


i would dig that, yknow? maybe dual weild enhancement so we get more tp returned, it would give us an edge over other jobs even,

that used to be a problem anyway, war/nin with axes. till 2handeds get buffed up.
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#14
User is offline   Butcherb0y 

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i luv my nin but as much as we want to think or hope, Catagory 2 merit Dual wield would never happen. If it does SE will give us ON TP penalty since SE only want SAM to regain TP in a flash
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#15
User is offline   Nattack 

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SE already gave us a TP penalty. . .
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#16
User is offline   Evenal 

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QUOTE (Livaud @ Sep 10 2008, 09:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
before i get flamed for this post or start a flame war, let me say i realise the benefits of Nin's tanking vs Pld's tanking, but unless i am mistaken SE never intended Nin to be a tank, as such i doubt the fix will come anytime soon


SE didn't ORIGINALLY intend for NIN to be a tank, more an enfeebler/dd hybrid. But the player base turned it into a tank because of the general lack of tanking abilities on other jobs and the usefulness of blink tanking to conserve mage MP ect ect. Seeing this SE decided to go along with the player trend and begin to introduce many gear choices that enhance a NIN's tanking ability, ie: yasha set (+1) and Arhat's set (+1) along with katana's that add enmity and the obvious new katana the Nagi with a whopping +10 enmity it's obvious SE has "somewhat" listened to the playerbase and helped "somewhat" with ninja's ability to tank. Like ama said though, its just simply inferior to a PLD's ability to sustain, PLD has the tools to tank without even needing a subjob, while ninja relies more on its subjob to successfully sustain hate (lets face it no one wants to blow such a large amount of gil to ninjutsu spam)

Anyways to the OP's post, I agree that ninja merit's are really the most useless out of all of the jobs so far. Subtle blow is nice, but our only nice group 1 merit, like said already having a universal elemental ninjutsu acc/dmg + merit would've been a wiser choice. Sange is utterly useless with the unavailability of a higher level lower cost stackable shuriken... its recast timer is pathetic, and no one is going to want to strip their shadows if they are tanking an HNM. I'm really surprised SE wasn't a bit more creative and added a JA to enhance NIN's tanking ability, maybe something to increase evasion which diminished over time( something like sentinel).

I find it really sad and almost pathetic that I level'd NIN to 75 because I had such a fun time actually leveling it I never thought that it wouldn't see ANY use in almost ANYTHING I do as a level 75 ninja. If I need to solo something I go on PUP, I merit on COR and do all my endgame event's as WHM or COR. The only time I ever got to use NIN was in my old dynamis LS, because we had too many WHM's and already had a cor, and LOLPUPDYNAMIS (although with the new WS stringing pummel I hope that changes *crosses fingers*) Otherwise ..i'm seriously debating just selling my ninja things, i really LOVE the job and see SO much potential for new JA's and even new spells new merits(well fixed merits..pls dont ADD new ones lol, more like consolidate them).




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#17
User is offline   Ark33 

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QUOTE
NIN is in giant need of a fix because it's simply inferior to PLD as a tank


This is something I totally disagree with.
Yes, Nin is inferior to Pld, but that's normal since Ninja is ( should be) a versatile ( or hybrid) class able to switch between different roles (like melee, nuker, debuffer or tank) while Pld is a class specialized into tanking.
The Ninja is inferior to many jobs because the class isn't finished

Take a Pld, and remove everything past lv 48. You would loose cure IV, Protect IV, reprisal, rampart, chivalry... ouchies
Take a Mnk and remove kick attacks, counterstance, chi blast, Hp boost III & IV, counter and kick merits... would suck
Take any mage and remove their spells post lv 48... they would definitely suck.


Ninja need a giant fix because the class isn't finished. However, before finishing the class, SE should consider re-balancing what's already existing. It actually sucks that we are the best nukers at lv 40 while blms should be. It also sucks that we have the best slow until lv 75, Rdm should have it.
They kinda fixed our huge DPS ( when you factor in dual-wield, a Senji have something like 14 Dps) by boosting the 2Handers, which is a good thing: 2Handers should be better DDs than us in every circumstances.


SE haven't finished the Ninja because the class really have an overpowered potential within if they follow its already established scheme of progression.
Imagine what it would be if we had real tier III and IVs nukes ? If we had stronger debuffs as well ? Or dual wield merits ?
That wouldn't be fair towards other classes, and we would go back to the situation we had 2~3 years ago: everyone on Ninja.


I think SE should think of an update for Ninja along the lines of Scholar.
The Scholar is a really versatile and efficient class, however it's limited at the same time.
Stratagems are at the same time making Sch powerful and putting a limitation to what a Scholar can do: it doesn't allow them to go wild like a Blm or a Whm could, but allows them to be stronger than what a Rdm can do in terms of support or nuking... and it also add interactive ( hence playful) restrictions to the job, making player's choices and strategies interesting, making the job fun.


Once SE will find where the balance and limitations should be between our melee, magic and tanking potential, they will be able to finish Ninja... but are they really thinking this way ?
I think the +10 MAcc and the +10 Enm on the mythic weapon could be a hint about the future: it involves magic, evasion and tanking, and I think the combo of these three elements if done properly would give Nin/war some good tools to become again an interesting end-game tank... maybe not as strong as a Pld/nin in terms of defensive abilities but with the ability to be on equal grounds in terms of global efficiency and with its own potential to add something useful to the group.
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#18
User is offline   Falaras 

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Because you know, being bad at everything makes a class good.
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#19
User is offline   Dazd 

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QUOTE (Rhayve @ Sep 11 2008, 03:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nagi
(Katana) All Races
DMG: 37 Delay: 227
Magic Accuracy+10 Enmity+10
Augments "Mijin Gakure"
"Blade: Kamu"
Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk.
Occasionally attacks twice
Lv. 75 NIN

Wait, what?



Wait, what exactly? Pointing that out as an argument for why Nin is good at tanking or w/e it is you're trying to do is the dumbest thing ever. You act like every nin can just walk up to the AH and buy one.


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#20
User is offline   Amastacia 

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Ok, I'll bite.

QUOTE (Ark33 @ Sep 11 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is something I totally disagree with.
Yes, Nin is inferior to Pld, but that's normal since Ninja is ( should be) a versatile ( or hybrid) class able to switch between different roles (like melee, nuker, debuffer or tank) while Pld is a class specialized into tanking.
The Ninja is inferior to many jobs because the class isn't finished

Take a Pld, and remove everything past lv 48. You would loose cure IV, Protect IV, reprisal, rampart, chivalry... ouchies
Take a Mnk and remove kick attacks, counterstance, chi blast, Hp boost III & IV, counter and kick merits... would suck
Take any mage and remove their spells post lv 48... they would definitely suck.


He's actually kinda right here, though it pains me to admit it. NIN pretty much stops after 48, getting only upgrades to existing traits. NIN after 48 is pretty much soley gear-driven, so while it would not be thrilling to remove the upper-tier Dual Wield or Subtle Blow traits, it wouldn't drastically impact the class (aside from making it a less powerful DD).

The problem is that SE can envision the class however it wants, but the playerbase ultimately decides how it's used. Minority of people who do crazy things aside, the bulk of players say NIN = tank, so SE should accept that and make NIN better able to fill that role.

QUOTE (Ark33 @ Sep 11 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ninja need a giant fix because the class isn't finished. However, before finishing the class, SE should consider re-balancing what's already existing. It actually sucks that we are the best nukers at lv 40 while blms should be. It also sucks that we have the best slow until lv 75, Rdm should have it.
They kinda fixed our huge DPS ( when you factor in dual-wield, a Senji have something like 14 Dps) by boosting the 2Handers, which is a good thing: 2Handers should be better DDs than us in every circumstances.


There are inequities in the system, but the game is not fundamentally broken leveling up. I would rather see that effort focused into balancing the game at level 75.

They did not fix our DPS, they broke it. From the outset, NIN has always been a DD. It turns out that Utsusemi + strong DD makes for a good tanking class, and that's how NIN got to be where it is today. Destroying NIN's DPS by super-buffing 2h'ers effectively destroyed its ability to tank well leveling up (go XP with a good 2h DD and a NIN tank, tell me how that goes).

It wouldn't be so bad if you could get 99-high stacks of Koga shurikens easily and at reasonable costs, but you can't.

QUOTE (Ark33 @ Sep 11 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SE haven't finished the Ninja because the class really have an overpowered potential within if they follow its already established scheme of progression.
Imagine what it would be if we had real tier III and IVs nukes ? If we had stronger debuffs as well ? Or dual wield merits ?
That wouldn't be fair towards other classes, and we would go back to the situation we had 2~3 years ago: everyone on Ninja.


NIN is where it is today because of constant adjustment of NIN and other jobs around Utsusemi, basically.

Originally Utsu: Ni had a horrendously long cast time, it was nearly unusable so SE cut it down. It is the only time a higher tier spell line has a shorter casting time than the lower tier.

Tier III or IV NIN nukes (which, judging by other NIN nukes, would be significantly weaker than their BLM counterparts) with appropriately long casting times would not be overpowered, but nor would they really be that useful.

Stronger debuffs would be a slippery slope due to the static nature of NIN enfeebles, but Dual Wield merits would hardly be game-breaking.

QUOTE (Ark33 @ Sep 11 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think SE should think of an update for Ninja along the lines of Scholar.
The Scholar is a really versatile and efficient class, however it's limited at the same time.
Stratagems are at the same time making Sch powerful and putting a limitation to what a Scholar can do: it doesn't allow them to go wild like a Blm or a Whm could, but allows them to be stronger than what a Rdm can do in terms of support or nuking... and it also add interactive ( hence playful) restrictions to the job, making player's choices and strategies interesting, making the job fun.


Difference is that SCH was even more brutally underpowered than NIN - before the update they couldn't do enough with either white or black magic to really be useful, as they were missing too many important/powerful spells.

NIN is in a similar position, but not to the same degree SCH was. NIN is usable but subpar. SCH was so poor it was virtually useless.

I would love it if they could make NIN more able as either a tank or DD at the expense of the other, but if they did something like that, I'd appreciate them understanding how the playerbase actually uses NIN, not how their handful of testers on Atomos do.

Would be nice to trade DD ability for extra Evasion and magic damage reduction plus reduced enmity loss, or trade Evasion, damage taken, or somesuch for higher attack speed and increased crit rate.

QUOTE (Ark33 @ Sep 11 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Once SE will find where the balance and limitations should be between our melee, magic and tanking potential, they will be able to finish Ninja... but are they really thinking this way ?
I think the +10 MAcc and the +10 Enm on the mythic weapon could be a hint about the future: it involves magic, evasion and tanking, and I think the combo of these three elements if done properly would give Nin/war some good tools to become again an interesting end-game tank... maybe not as strong as a Pld/nin in terms of defensive abilities but with the ability to be on equal grounds in terms of global efficiency and with its own potential to add something useful to the group.


NIN has very little magic ability, and that's fine. The ability to selectively choose between being a stronger DD at the expense of being more prone to death (and thus make tanking harder) or a stronger tank at the expense of damage output (and thus preventing being an "overpowered" tank + DD combo) would be great.

I think the NIN weapon is retarded and designed by people fundamentally out of touch with how the game is played, and if it is a vision of the future, I hope it's one that never comes to pass. NIN is not a mage, and very few NINs want it to be one, it's a DD and a tank, and SE should focus down that road.

I'd absolutely hate for NIN/WAR to become an interesting endgame tank. NIN/DRK is in a way already a tradeoff - it is a much less effective DD tank but a much better endgame tank with the proper support. Just need a way to help balance the shortcomings of PLD vs. NIN as an endgame tank, and better separate NIN as a DD from NIN as a tank.

The only snag that's pretty glaring I can think of is how to keep NIN effective as an XP tank, since any sort of "stance" trading would be hugely useful at endgame but probably much less so (depending on how it's implemented) for XP parties since you need damage mitigation and damage to tank well.
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