[richardd]

i really wish they would add more items as far as damage reduction goes, lol. i never have problems with hate or sharing hate with other good pld's i had the opportunity to tank with. But i dont like the fact that they have half a terra staff on their new relic sword and all these nice odin valhala gear lol. They're making it way too easy for them. Meanwhile, im fidgeting between my macros just trying to catch up for different occasions as far as damage reduction goes.

that's the only thing i dont like about tanking on nin now, and why i like coming to DD to events more often.
You cant afford to make a mistake on this job as far as tanking goes. Getting hit at the wrong moment with the wrong gearset can mean severe MP loss on your mages and your hate. While pld can just hit a sentinel macro, and everything's all dandy lol. Well, meh what can i do? more power to them. I have a higher respect for pld almost every update, .

as far as nin DD goes, amas hit it right on the head! 2h wut?!

[Brinnn]

Sange is an awesome hate tool if used with the right ammo and gear, would be nice if JA itself had high hate on it, but if used right it is better then nothing, I personally don't use it a whole lot as I can never be arsed to farm ammo, but I used too. It's good to start fights kinda like using Spirits and you can get Ni back up right away.
NIN is fine imo and I love tanking on it, Alot of the NINs I know don't try to push the boundaries with gear or even use decent tanking food if any at all, you don't need really expensive +1 gear to be an excellent Ninja, I pray on showing PLDs up with my DMG taken and just not letting them get hate when I know I can hold on my own, there is not alot of PLDs I know that can bounce hate with me (like we need too anyway).
Idk why so many people in these boards complain about NIN, even if it is fucking Merits, we got dealt a shitty hand by our shitty dealer, don't like it? level a job with decent merit slots and stop hating on this fucking job.

[Ark33]

Because you know, being bad at everything makes a class good.

No... but being good at many things without being #1 does.
That's the concept of an Hybrid class: a class able to adapt quickly to different situations. The difference between an hybrid and a versatile class is here: hybrids don't need to go to the Mog house but aren't #1s, versatiles are #1s thanks to the mog house ( and stuck without it).

To be honest, asking to be able to be one of the best tanks and one of the best DDs according to subjob choice is utopia, and unfair for others, that's like levelling two classes for the price of one. Other players complain about this and they are right. Two classes are actually versatile in FFXI: Nin and Rdm, and "surprisingly", these are two classes not getting updates and getting "crappy" additions ( aka not the ones they want).

I'd rather see Ninja becoming more an Hybrid, and that's possible because the class isn't finished and because many tools aren't really used, leaving the developers a lot of margin to make changes without upsetting the players.

From the outset, NIN has always been a DD. It turns out that Utsusemi + strong DD makes for a good tanking class, and that's how NIN got to be where it is today.

The fact is Ninja as a DD tank is dead, because there are many really strong DD classes and they can all access Utsusemi and haste gear. At best Ninja is a first provoke, but I don't think anyone who experienced Ninja 2 years ago can still define it as a viable tank.
It can be a great tank with good support from our partners, but the game have changed so much that no one works this way anymore. When was the last time you saw a Sam using SATA or a Mnk holding back ? They just sub Utsusemi and it makes the group more efficient.

HNM wise, Pld/nin is better. I even think Drk/nin could be better than Nin/drk : they have access to a lot of OShit gear, Dread spikes to protect them even more in OSHit situations, more magic accuracy/potency for their stuns, Absorb Tp to have some control on the mob's actions, Drain and Drain II to support a bit their healers and Aspir to help with Mp management.
They also have access to gear like Ares' cuirass and Parade Gorget to help even more with Mp management.
And I'm not talking about the potential do deal additional damage with Scythe or GSword.
Even their 2Hours could help recovering from bad situations.

I know no one tanks HNMs with Drk/nin, but honestly, what do Nin/drk have over a Drk/nin ?

There are inequities in the system, but the game is not fundamentally broken leveling up. I would rather see that effort focused into balancing the game at level 75.

Well, I think balancing lower levels could lead to a balance at higher levels.
The lv 40 nukes are pretty much all or nothing. The damage per spell is quite weak, but the whole wheel is really strong compared to options available to other jobs.
It's pretty much all or nothing: a player will either spam the wheel or totally ignore the spells.
Even at lv 75, when you can actually use the wheel efficiently it's extremly powerful. Go spam the Ni and San wheels for 100 and 140 dmg/nuke on that orc boss on temenos C3 if you don't believe me.


The wheel is a really powerful tool. I understand this tool isn't available at higher levels, it would be so broken, because unlike MP jobs, there are no restrictions on Ninja nukes. That's why the wheel is broken, and that's why the Ninja nukes aren't available at higher levels, making the job unfinished.

However, if there was a restriction on the spells, players wouldn't be able to spam the wheel, and SE would be able to add better nukes that could be useful. Stronger nukes could become a support tool for tanking through.
They would add to our total damage on trigger of the player, opposed to the constant and uncontrolled flow of DPS our katanas do.
Ninja would tank though mix of Katana and magic damage instead of tanking with only katana (nin/war) or only spells (nin/drk).


If SE could make something balanced about these spells at lv 40, then they could reproduce it at higher levels, giving Ninja its own hate tools. Something more like over time small spikes to comfort our DPS, a mix of spikes and DPS, something between the raging DPS of a Monk and the high spike hate tools of a Pld... it would make Ninja unique.
( that's why I think it's important to consider the root of the problem which is at lv 40 to balance the lv 75 issues).


I talked about Scholar because I think a good limitation would be an adaptation of the stratagem charges system.
Ninja would have charges reloading over time. A nuke cast without a charge would deal 0 damage, a nuke cast with a charge would do nice damage ( Idk, I'd say 280 dmg on xp mobs, 200 on small HNMs and 100 on stuff like tiamat ~~ doesn't mean much without considering the recast on charges anyways).

The advantage of this would be to give the Ninja an option to manage hate tools: saving charges saving charges to answer to other's actions, or brning a few charges in a row to make a big burst of damage, or using charges regularly to build hate ... there are tons of possibilities.
It would also suit the logic of a DD tank: hate through damage. It would also match the concept of an hybrid class: using various abilties and competences all together to reach their goal: doing damage and tanking.
I'm sure SE gave us nukes and A Ninjutsu skill to work like this, but they don't know how to balance all this.


Honestly, to all the players asking for more DPS, just go play monk, you already have 95% of the gear needed, and Mnk is really what you are looking for ( though War/nin or Sam could probably make you happy as well).



Ps:

Idk why so many people in these boards complain about NIN, even if it is fucking Merits, we got dealt a shitty hand by our shitty dealer, don't like it? level a job with decent merit slots and stop hating on this fucking job.

Says the job with Sam in his comment as main job and Mnk gear in his avatar.
Seems you weren't good enough at Ninja since you end up playing these two others jobs. I understand your bitterness, but cockblocking discussions like you do with negative comments towards people trying to make thing changes like 'j00 SuCk @ NeeJA NooB!" is really annoying.

[Brinnn]

Just because my main and avatar are different jobs then the board I am posting on means I wasn't good enough at NIN? says the guy who still defends EVA tanking because he can't count shadows, every single word you post is annoying Ark, and you should have stopped posting on these boards along time ago, someone looking for advice might mistake you for someone who knows how to play this game.
I'm not bitter, I love NIN and still use it as much as I can, I'm personally sick of people saying this job sucks as a tank when I know it doesn't.

[Ark33]

I'm not bitter, I love NIN and still use it as much as I can, I'm personally sick of people saying this job sucks as a tank when I know it doesn't.

See, your post is 80% insults while you don't know me or never saw me playing and the 20% left are misunderstanding ( so yes, it's annoying to read this).

We're not saying Ninja sucks, we're saying there are problems somewhere and that it could be interesting to fix these.
Do you think your Nin could hold hate Vs your Mnk ?
Considering the nice gear your have( and I just checked your Nin on FFXIAH), I don't think your Ninja could. At best you would have even results with both jobs, and you would be doing pretty much exactly the same thing with both jobs as well.

So yes, there is a problem ( and that's not the only one), it doesn't means Ninja sucks, but it might be interesting to discuss about it without saying people suck or fail at playing the job because they see an issue.

[Spartan]

fluff

I'm going to address two of your points, because I don't feel like reading the rest.

1. This game is about specialism. Those who do the best at a single task are far more valuable than those who are mediocre at everything.

2. Ninja has a lot over DRK... Arhat's gear, an extra shadow, high parrying/evasion skill, and MP-free hate grabbers.

[Amastacia]

Idk why so many people in these boards complain about NIN, even if it is fucking Merits, we got dealt a shitty hand by our shitty dealer, don't like it? level a job with decent merit slots and stop hating on this fucking job.

I did that.

It's called SAM.

And guess what, NOT BY CHOICE I get asked to come SAM anytime I might have been asked to come NIN. But I'm a team player, so I recognize that the superior DD of SAM is better than NIN for that purpose, or that while I might be a very good tank, that we have many very good tanks and RDM is often in short supply.

Oh, and SAM may not be as adept of a tank as NIN, but in small-man situations where you need a Tank/DD combo, SAM is at least as good at that as NIN, since it does more damage and can negate at least as much through identical -dmg gear, similarly high defensive skills, and Third Eye for when Utsusemi is down.

I bitch because I love NIN far more than my other jobs but I refuse to put my own ego ahead of the fun and enjoyment of a group. I genuinely find enjoyment from the interplay of a good group and efficiently doing hard things with comparably small numbers. Until my SAM hit 75, my NIN was excellent in that regard for a melee, but everything that made my NIN good (except HNM tanking ability and soloing ability) is still there in SAM, but better. And it sucks, because I enjoy SAM, but I don't love it. If my NIN was as capable in the activities I frequently do, I'd gladly use it over SAM every time.


______

No... but being good at many things without being #1 does.
That's the concept of an Hybrid class: a class able to adapt quickly to different situations. The difference between an hybrid and a versatile class is here: hybrids don't need to go to the Mog house but aren't #1s, versatiles are #1s thanks to the mog house ( and stuck without it).

To be honest, asking to be able to be one of the best tanks and one of the best DDs according to subjob choice is utopia, and unfair for others, that's like levelling two classes for the price of one. Other players complain about this and they are right. Two classes are actually versatile in FFXI: Nin and Rdm, and "surprisingly", these are two classes not getting updates and getting "crappy" additions ( aka not the ones they want).

You are a fucking moron with very little understanding of MMO mechanics or human nature.

Hybrid classes are great in theory, but in practice specialist classes are more adept (since you can, you know, take 6 people in a party) and more sought after by the gaming populace.

MMO after MMO really good generalist hybrid classes are left on the sidelines because they're not good enough at any one thing to be desired, and few situations ACTUALLY REQUIRE so much diversity. Generally, if they do, you've already fucked up.

Oh, and RDM is not desirable because it's versatile, it's desirable because it can Refresh, Haste, Cure, occasionally enfeeble depending on the situation, and has better MP longevity than any other class. For shit like merits, most things are secondary to a nearly endless stream of MP, and no other mage can touch RDM in that department. For shit like HNMs, RDM is desirable because they've got a unique spell that adds an extra 3 MP/tick which can't be obtained from any other job. The fact that they can also Haste and Cure is a great bonus, and makes them good standins when you are short on support but need healers too.

Your complete lack of knowledge or understanding of how shit really works never ceases to boggle my mind, though I should know to expect it by now.

[Evenal]

Honestly ninja is OK at best the way it is, If they added some creative JA's to our arsenal (again over the level 48) idk anything Ninjaesque could work, stances focusing on critical hits ,evasion, shadow forms, JA's or JT's focusing on throwing shuriken's.. theres so many different things SE could do to completely revolutionize ninja, they could even take it OUT of the tanking class and give it an ability somewhat opposite of SAM's overwhelm, just so many things that they've just let ninja kinda lag behind ..and they're updates are increasing mijin gakure? gimme a break. PLD is the games tank above all tanks, NIN rely's on a subjob to do what PLD can do without one, and like said in previous posts besides up to level 48 all nin has is gear. I'd like to see some changes...any changes, because I am rarely asked to use my ninja for anything that another job can do much better.

[Ark33]

I'm going to address two of your points, because I don't feel like reading the rest.

1. This game is about specialism. Those who do the best at a single task are far more valuable than those who are mediocre at everything.

That's exactly what I'm taking about: Ninja needing to be more specialized in his hybrid role without the need of a sub job, instead of being a class that can switch roles with subjobs and be a semi acceptable DD or a semi acceptable tank.
Also, there are a whole shade of flavors between being pro and being mediocre.
You should read the rest

[Brinnn]

Ark if you're talking about NIN in merit party, NIN can't hold hate against alot of DDs, but NIN/WAR imo is useless for try to keep hate on any mob without aid by Trick Attack, NINs DD capabilities are decnt but far from the best which is why they are crap at keeping hate, yes my MNK would keep hate better then my NIN/WAR for this fact, but as would any decntly geared MNK, thus the reason MNKs tank alot better in Salvage.
You are retarded myself and others have been saying it since I have been reading these forums.

Ama I love you!

[Ark33]

MMO after MMO really good generalist hybrid classes are left on the sidelines because they're not good enough at any one thing to be desired, and few situations ACTUALLY REQUIRE so much diversity. Generally, if they do, you've already fucked up.

It's all about the size of the event. A six man in group in Nyzul favors diversity, an alliance on Tiamat doesn't. However, more and more events in this game are aiming at low men groups ( which is a good thing).

Oh, and RDM is not desirable because it's versatile, it's desirable because it can Refresh, Haste, Cure, occasionally enfeeble depending on the situation, and has better MP longevity than any other class.

Yeah, all these things you described ( enfeeble, support, cures) are the hybrid side of the rdm: different things put together.
Rdm is appealing because of this hybrid side, it can do a lot of things. Rdm isn't appealing because of its versatile side, even if its nice to be able to turn it into a stunner, a tank or a melee.
Now, I think you overestimate Rdm too much. Outside of alliance size fights ( HNMs) a rdm isn't that useful. There are plenty of jobs able to reliably to the enfeeble job, refresh is barely needed and there are alternatives for mages ( I'd rather be refreshed by brd or cor since they stack with sublimation) and melees have ways to manage their Mp without refresh ( auto-refresh traits & gears, aspir-like spells).

So, the only place where Rdm is needed are HNMs for refresh, but Rdms sneak their way into all other events because of their hybrid abilities... just like Mnks do when they become tanks on salvage bosses or tier I jailers.

Ark if you're talking about NIN in merit party, NIN can't hold hate against alot of DDs, but NIN/WAR imo is useless for try to keep hate on any mob without aid by Trick Attack, NINs DD capabilities are decnt but far from the best which is why they are crap at keeping hate, yes my MNK would keep hate better then my NIN/WAR for this fact, but as would any decntly geared MNK, thus the reason MNKs tank alot better in Salvage.

So, you still say Ninja is a good tank, but you prefer to tank salvage on Mnk and say your Nin wouldn't hold hate over DDs.
What's exactly making Ninja a good tank then ? ( since you said it was one)

You are a fucking moron with very little understanding of MMO mechanics or human nature.

WTH is human nature doing in this ?

[Brinnn]

Wtf do you think makes NIN a good tank?, Tanking jobs are situational, yes NIN is shit in Salvage, but it fairs better on Jailers, Sky gods and certain HNMs, fuck I give up, you just want bites from us so you can quote, then add your own little retarded comments.

[Ark33]

Wtf do you think makes NIN a good tank?, Tanking jobs are situational, yes NIN is shit in Salvage, but it fairs better on Jailers, Sky gods and certain HNMs

Oh, excuse me, I though we said in the posts before that Pld was better and that we should only use paladins because they are specialized and that only specialized classes were good etc etc....

I'm really dissapointed. The more I try to talk to you like an adult, the more you answer like a kid

[Brinnn]

You just proved my last sentence.

[Spartan]

Now, I think you overestimate Rdm too much. Outside of alliance size fights ( HNMs) a rdm isn't that useful. There are plenty of jobs able to reliably to the enfeeble job, refresh is barely needed and there are alternatives for mages ( I'd rather be refreshed by brd or cor since they stack with sublimation) and melees have ways to manage their Mp without refresh ( auto-refresh traits & gears, aspir-like spells).

So, the only place where Rdm is needed are HNMs for refresh, but Rdms sneak their way into all other events because of their hybrid abilities... just like Mnks do when they become tanks on salvage bosses or tier I jailers.

Holy shit you're so stupid.

[Amastacia]

Yeah, I give up.

Problem with arguing with the stupid is they tend to bring you down to their level.

[Tikki]

There are definitely jobs in worse shape than NIN at the moment (BST, SMN in particular), but if you talk to most of the people who really push it hard, NIN needs a lot of help.

Ima sadface now. But still, smn and nin for life! >_> Finally almost 75 nin too. What, me, take forever?


... and Ark, you REALLY have no idea what you're talking about. Just stop.

[Ark33]

Well, honestly the "you have no clue" and the "lack of knowledge and understanding" are really getting old.
The things I say are based on my experience as a player, and everyone I met agrees to say I'm a really good player with real mastery of my own class despite the fact that I'm an asshole ( but yeah, noobs makes me act like an asshole cause I hate wasting time for them).

I can totally agree that I'm wrong on something, and recognize I don't know something.
However, if that was the case, these guys would have a supply of arguments and examples to prove me how and why I'm wrong, and to explain me how to make things works, instead of the common "you have no clue" thing.
In 90% of the cases, the posts with less than 3 sentences contains no valuable information, just people trying to impress other with ridiculous lies or people trying to show they "were here" while not giving any significant input to the discussion.

Now this discussion is totally broken because these guys came in as usual, but well, their noobery waste place on my screen, I haste wasting anything to noobs.

[Falaras]

It's all about the size of the event. A six man in group in Nyzul favors diversity, an alliance on Tiamat doesn't. However, more and more events in this game are aiming at low men groups ( which is a good thing).


Yeah, all these things you described ( enfeeble, support, cures) are the hybrid side of the rdm: different things put together.
Rdm is appealing because of this hybrid side, it can do a lot of things. Rdm isn't appealing because of its versatile side, even if its nice to be able to turn it into a stunner, a tank or a melee.
Now, I think you overestimate Rdm too much. Outside of alliance size fights ( HNMs) a rdm isn't that useful. There are plenty of jobs able to reliably to the enfeeble job, refresh is barely needed and there are alternatives for mages ( I'd rather be refreshed by brd or cor since they stack with sublimation) and melees have ways to manage their Mp without refresh ( auto-refresh traits & gears, aspir-like spells).

So, the only place where Rdm is needed are HNMs for refresh, but Rdms sneak their way into all other events because of their hybrid abilities... just like Mnks do when they become tanks on salvage bosses or tier I jailers.




So, you still say Ninja is a good tank, but you prefer to tank salvage on Mnk and say your Nin wouldn't hold hate over DDs.
What's exactly making Ninja a good tank then ? ( since you said it was one)






WTH is human nature doing in this ?

Because rdm is a hybrid, that is meant to mellee and nuke right? Guess what they don't, they just happen to be better at the healing and support role then any other job in the game. Now, HNMs for refresh, what about Salvage for Phalanx II, the ability to be a stronger healer then Whm for 6 man events, and of course for meriting nothing can compare. Rdm is a hybrid, but it specializes in one role better then the non-hybrids, that is why it is good.
And calling something a hybrid just because it can do something besides cure is kinda stupid, sure Rdms can cast Slow II but its still a primary healer for a lot of things, kinda like how a Whm can cast Repose on mobs that can't be slept by dark magic but is still known as "the healer".

[Tikki]

If you want me to bring in some exceptional red mages to tell you how idiotic your statements are, I certainly can.