[Nattack]

the monster i hoped to set in motion, by a latent effect of my dissapointment, has succeeded.

[Amastacia]

If you want me to bring in some exceptional red mages to tell you how idiotic your statements are, I certainly can.

I wouldn't waste their time. His views on RDM make me cringe, but I know even talking 'till I'm blue in the fact won't educate him. He's proven over and over that he doesn't even want to hear other opinions, even when he says he does.

[Brinnn]

His views on ANYTHING make me cringe.

[Shinzai]

I think SE should just get off their collective ass, provide us with some real fucking shurikens that have decent damage on them, that are available widely. Would anyone really have any major complaint if they made it so that Nin/Rng was the best choice for a DD Ninja? Yes, I know it's scoffed at as a subjob setup by everyone, including myself, at least as it currently works: Dual Wield, lack of shuriken availability and so on take away from any desire to use it.

However, what if they gave us some ranged attack enhancing abilities or mode switches, a la Velocity Shot or the like, even if it was meritable? And actually easy to craft shurikens, or even a god damned chakram worth a shit. Alternatively, yeah, I'd go with the other suggestions on 'stance' switching. Again, perhaps just give us a variation on Hasso or berserk or the like, as stated - for critical hits. Hell, why not a doppelgänger ability that can create 1 shadow clone that does, say, 25% of the damage we do, meleeing along side us, again either with casting reductions or decrease in defence or whatever. After all, if it's ok to give Samurai the ability to parry and just dodge the shit out of any where between 1 and x amount of attacks, while retaining the ability to use ninjutsu if they sub ninja, why not?

As far as merits go, yeah, they're just an embarrassment for the most part. Ninja Tool Expertise is fine, Subtle Blow bonus is average at best. The rest are just pointless. Sange would be good if combined with some form of the previous stances or abilities. I was annoyed for about a week after they gave us the :San line of spells as I invested in a pair of them, as well as a couple of category 1 damage merits. I thought I may be able to do some thing vaguely resembling damage on one of the sky gods, or perhaps just use it to pull hate. Well, I couldn't have been much more wrong about it. Instead, why can't we merit our debuffs to make sure they stick or last longer? Yes, I know we can merit ninjutsu, but meh, whatever.

Dual Wield enhancements sound like a good line to merit. Others: Jubaku: Ni. It should be tier 2 meritable. End of story.

So yah, I think our merits should include the following:

Tier 1:
Subtle Blow - As is.
Jubaku Ichi Upgrade - Time + Accuracy.
Kurayami Ichi + Ni Upgrade - Time + Accuracy.
Hojo Ichi + Ni Upgrade - Time + Accuracy.
Dokumori Ni - For weirdos.

Tier 2:
Dual Wield - Whatever percentage applicable.
Sange - As is.
Elemental Ninjutsu Debuffs Boost (All) - As the current San spells are boosted, so +5 to Ichi, Ni and San for each 3/4/5 merits.
Jubaku Ni - God forbid we have a paralyze that works at end game. And yes, SE thinks it would be overpowering, so why don't they just balance the damn thing till we can use it?
Ranged Attack Booster Ability - Would have to think carefully about the bonuses.

PS: Feel free to laugh about the Nin/Rng ideas.

[Kleiner]

Honestly I stopped reading halfway through the first page, people seem to forget how far behind the 2hander update pushed NIN backwards. Personally, I think the Mystic weapon COULD become a "vision of the future" like Aark mentioned, without resulting in NIN becoming a pure mage. consider the possibility.. NIN DD tanking through the use of magic damage. Give NIN natural Ninja tool Expertise (and then make the merits increase the potency), Let NINs get San-level spells naturally, and then give merits to enhance them. NIN/RDM could become a Hate generator equal to PLD with the defensive spells of SS and Phalanx, as well as being able to self heal (moderately).


Tier 1:
Subtle Blow - As is.
Elemental Ninjutsu Cast Timer - 3% Per upgrade.
Debuff Ninjutsu Potency - 5s Duration and +3 M.ACC per merit.
Jubaku: Ni - Increased merits increases duration and M.ACC. (Static Paralyze chance between the potency of Paralyze I and II)


Tier 2:
Sange - As is.
Elemental Ninjutsu Potency - 3 M.AB and M.ACC Per upgrade.
Ninja Tool Expertise - 5% Per upgrade (With the inclusion of naturally gained Ninja tool Expertise, maxed merits in this results in a 40% proc rate)
Kyuin: Ichi - "Drains the opponent's life force to sustain the caster's" (high agro, Drain spell. Kyuin literally means Absorption). Each Merit increases M.ACC .

60 Katon: San
60 Hyoton: San
62 Huton: San
62 Doton: San
66 Raiton: San
68 Suiton: San

Ninja Tool Expertise: 50 (10%)
Ninja Tool Expertise: 65 (Additional 5%)


This is how i've always wanted NIN to play, relying on their ninjutsu and spells to do more than just Blink. Hell once ni comes into play few NINs cast more than Ichi, Ni, and Hojo. Ninjas are supposed to have tons of tricks up their sleeves.. it just makes sense for them to use their spells more. So the way it would play (endgame anyway) would be as NIN/RDM. This would grant them Fast Cast, M.AB, Cure III, Stoneskin, Phalanx, and M.DB. (/SCH would also be probable, but not as effective). To gain hate the NIN relies on dealing damage through :ni and :san spells. Gear would mostly be towards haste (still) for San and Utsu recast timers, Without the primary focus of melee stats. The NIN would not need huge amounts of magic-oriented gear, but slipping it in where applicable would never hurt. Between Recasts the NIN could keep up SS and Phalanx for protection against Damage that breaks through shadows, M.DB to defend against spells, and (where MP gave room) Cure IIIs.



So yeah. I've seen NINs as more "magical" in terms of they need to ACTUALLY USE THEIR NINJUTSU (not just Utsu!). But yeah this is a major Overhaul of NIN that will never happen! (and every NIn here will likely hate. I was bored in class. Enjoy!)

[Evenal]

You know the sad thing though, is they probably wont ever "fix" or change the merits nin has just because well...People already have max merits in them ...where would they all go, its not like SE has actually thought to let us change our merits without actually wasting them, which i think is one of this games biggest flaws. I love your idea's Klein, and Shinzai.

[Brinnn]

I like the Kyuin Drain thingy idea, high hate jutsu drain spell would be awesome as hell.

[Nattack]

shuriken that deal damage?

Koga shuriken dps: 27.5, their damage can be humongous

but so little support for them

who the FUCK decided to make it so you could only obtain it once in a short line of quests? it would take 33 days to get 1 stack if you did all 3 of them per day

[Nattack]

oh, some problems i see with ninja

in ninjutsu:
-Elemental ichi spells never get used
-elemental ni spells get outdated
-elemental san spells are too outrageous to get all of them
-Dokumori is only 1 hp/tic, ichi only, and doesnt stack with poison spells
-Jubaku is ichi only, and for some reason SE fears us having something 'more powerful than Paralyze 2' (make it inbetween, gawd)
-Debuff ninjutsu doesnt provide enough enmity
-Utsusemi on main job nin has little bonus other than an extra shadow over subjob nin.

in weapons:
our A+ throwing has little to no use, because:
not even someone with a speed belt and a kikoku would want to pay the massive price for shuriken, little support for ranged attacks
our best WS's hold little damage to things like hnms, we cant use our main weapons on them because they dont ... do anything. Watch me hit cerberus for fire damage to myself.
TP floor

in tanking:
evasion slowly becomes useless as levels become higher,
in which, getting hit means you lose your hate,
in which, theres no way to get that hp or hate back as fast as some other tank jobs i know

in job abilities:
everything. how many buffs to mijin gakure can you do before people decide that needing items to make our 2hr have some kind of use is pointless,
lolsange, consume our shadows so we can do more damage (with what? shuriken?) and take more hits.

in passive abilities:
Dual wield has penalties. we have penalties of tp, and we cant take it off. in fact i think we're the only job that has a passive penalty that i can think of. trade tp for speed? i dunno. maybe if you sub nin but on nin main? fuck you!
Store TP Subtle Blow is a myth - my prey still weapon skills on me. because the thief and the warrior around me keep battering down on it.
stealth? ive seen it in action. who thought this one up? we have tonko and monomi now, give me something useful. attack bonus, accuracy bonus, something
resist bind, needs more resist slow if you ask me. since in the end our job relies so much on haste. it seems to make more sense to me.

[Tikki]

( Store TP = Subtle Blow I assume you mean)

[Nattack]

yes

[pathwriter]

I need to troll forums more and grind dailies less. It's been so long since I got a good, long laugh at people trying to reason with Arkhan.

I'd like to say that Square-Enix should revisit every job, evaluate their strengths and weaknesses (both intended and otherwise), and do a major overhaul. They won't, but maybe I'm wrong. The theme of most of the past year of updates has been "Shit we should've done before this game hit US markets," so perhaps they'll get around to serious job reviews just as people are becoming bored with level sync and the Alexandrite grind.

[Hyanmensire]

It's never been as balanced as right now. People are just crying for updates 'cause they haven't seen them for ages, but does that mean the job is unbalanced? Why do I come to NIN forums in the first place though... gdi.

[Nattack]

can you give us an example of how balanced it is?

[Spartan]

It's never been as balanced as right now. People are just crying for updates 'cause they haven't seen them for ages, but does that mean the job is unbalanced?

So the game is the most balanced it's ever been because you said so?

[Hyanmensire]

DD's are pretty balanced nowadays. the difference between DRK DRG BST WAR NIN THF MNK SAM RNG isn't as huge as it sometime was.. I'd invite any of these jobs to merit if they're good. BLU I'm not sure, I think it'd need some tweaking. COR can hold its own and its not a complete copy of BRD. WHM/SCH is good as any in merits, RDM and SCH have their place too. PUP needs some tweaking but thats what SE's doing.. BLMs and PLDs are the core problem really, but I'd still invite a good DD PLD to merit if I knew one.

damn I knew I shouldnt have come here in the first place.. I think the game was most balanced when it was 60 cap, but well, yeah...

[Spartan]

DD's are pretty balanced nowadays. the difference between DRK DRG BST WAR NIN THF MNK SAM RNG isn't as huge as it sometime was.. I'd invite any of these jobs to merit if they're good. BLU I'm not sure, I think it'd need some tweaking. COR can hold its own and its not a complete copy of BRD. WHM/SCH is good as any in merits, RDM and SCH have their place too. PUP needs some tweaking but thats what SE's doing.. BLMs and PLDs are the core problem really, but I'd still invite a good DD PLD to merit if I knew one.

damn I knew I shouldnt have come here in the first place.. I think the game was most balanced when it was 60 cap, but well, yeah...

DDs are horribly unbalanced. There're pretty much two levels, two-handers (which are pretty balanced), and one-handers. Whereas one-handers held the advantage before the change, it's now the other way around, and with /SAM, just as unbalanced. BST is ridiculously unbalanced, same with SMN and PUP. Pet jobs in general, really, need a huge tweak. Even with /SCH, WHM is still more often than not outclassed or as good as a RDM or SCH. BLU is pretty balanced on the whole, though it's mostly a case of BLU raping at some stuff and being absolute mouthshit at others. BLM is ok, not nearly as overpowered as it used to be, but still quite powerful. PLD, especially with the new relic and shield change, has once again been buffed, while NIN is left in the dust. Same old song.

This game is still very unbalanced, but I honestly prefer that to the constant ebb and flow of WoW's classes.

[Hyanmensire]

But the thing is, both are good.. I would invite a good one hander over a bad 2 hander. Yes, 2 handers now hold the flag of the uberest DD, but the difference isnt as big as it was before. SE buffed 2 handers a lot, then nerfed them twice. All the BST's Iv've partied with have been doing good, they don't have A+ axe skill for nothing. I'd invite a good BST over a bad -anything-, and wouldn't regret it one bit. SMN needs a buff to make it apply avatar buffs faster, now it's just too slow for fast paced melee burns. PUP is fine except for the fact it's not fast DD like others.. ranged attacks take like 15secs and it only has martial arts III... too slow for meriting. Pre 75 though, it's great. If played right, that is. The problem is at 75.

RDM or SCH > WHM/SCH, but the difference isn't anything that would break a party. WHM's can keep up fine even with many /SAM's in party, but if the DD's take too much damage I bet any healer would have problems with mp. NIN gets still invited to merits (hey I invite good nins at least), unlike paladins. You seem to be (I don't know, just looking at your last sentence) bitter about the fact SE buffs paladins while ninjas get err... worse relic than paladins. Is the katana bad however, when Not compared to your nemesis paladin's weapon?

[Spartan]

But the thing is, both are good.. I would invite a good one hander over a bad 2 hander. Yes, 2 handers now hold the flag of the uberest DD, but the difference isnt as big as it was before. SE buffed 2 handers a lot, then nerfed them twice. All the BST's Iv've partied with have been doing good, they don't have A+ axe skill for nothing. I'd invite a good BST over a bad -anything-, and wouldn't regret it one bit. SMN needs a buff to make it apply avatar buffs faster, now it's just too slow for fast paced melee burns. PUP is fine except for the fact it's not fast DD like others.. ranged attacks take like 15secs and it only has martial arts III... too slow for meriting. Pre 75 though, it's great. If played right, that is. The problem is at 75.

Your argument here seems to be "yeah x job is better, but a good person playing y job can still beat a bad x job," which is a pretty terrible argument. What if it's a good SAM vs. a good NIN? Who do you think is going to win? Also, Beastmasters have A- axe skill just like Warriors. That they have A+ is a common misconception.

RDM or SCH > WHM/SCH, but the difference isn't anything that would break a party. WHM's can keep up fine even with many /SAM's in party, but if the DD's take too much damage I bet any healer would have problems with mp. NIN gets still invited to merits (hey I invite good nins at least), unlike paladins. You seem to be (I don't know, just looking at your last sentence) bitter about the fact SE buffs paladins while ninjas get err... worse relic than paladins. Is the katana bad however, when Not compared to your nemesis paladin's weapon?

Again, your argument for why WHM isn't unbalanced is the same as above. It's not anything that would break a party, but if RDM and/or SCH are better, why would you even take a WHM?

And I'm not bitter about Burtgang, it was just an example. I'm bitter because after giving them auto-refresh, the shield update, good job-specific merits, and Reprisal, SE felt the need to do this:

[Hyanmensire]

Heh, depends.. I'd still want at least one provoke in my party, war sam and nin can provide me that. In general though, I'll pick good sam over a good nin. One thing to note though is that it's not like before when you'd look for mnk/nin/war not lfp instead of getting the other jobs that might be available. And the difference isn't hueg like it once was. Still enough to see the difference though. And honestly when I build a pickup party it's hard to find those 3-4 well equipped DD's from all the shitty ones. When we think of best gears best merits then X job beats Y job, but how often is that applicable?

When was that pic taken btw?