[Kilhart]

Alright, so while BG is an incredibly useful source for research and data, it appears from the new WS modifier topic that Leaden Salute has only undergone minor testing. It seems we've become so reliant on what BG tells us that we forget that a large number of CORs rely on this humble forum for their information, and aside from "BG said this," we've remained quiet about our new WS.

An arbitrary formula was reached based on player AGI vs mob INT due to its creator claiming INT has no effect on the WS after tests were done on mobs as high as level 50-ish beetles. The huge problem with this is that dINT on a 75COR is most likely capped on mobs in the 50s and below, so it's pretty obvious changing INT on those mobs would show no change in LS damage. I've brought this up twice in the topic with zero response, and I'm personally unable to test it myself, since I'm working on Atonement at the moment.

So, we have to consider if the formula is really "2*(AGI-EnemyINT)+[fTP*(75+2+[.83*[.3*AGI]])]," as is stated by a single person based on their data, or if it simply follows the normal "[([([(Lv+2+WSC)*fTP+fINT]*Resist)*Elemental Staves]*Weather)*MDIF]*Magic Damage Adjustment" formula that all other magic-based WSes follow, with simply a higher AGI mod. The main reason for my doubt is because AGI really appears in two parts of the speculated formula, which is odd considering it's fairly easy to factor out some things and combine like terms to completely eliminate any notion of "AGI vs INT" completely. What I'm trying to say is that you could easily have moved some things around in the formula and ended up with fTP-EnemyINT somewhere along the way, if you wanted.

In my opinion, if this formula is the correct formula, it's not in a concise enough format, and the only other time we really see a stat repeated twice in a WS formula is when STR is a mod, as it will appear in both fSTR(2) and in WSC. However, this is only because fSTR(2) is a value that's included in calculations for normal attacks, as well; I somewhat doubt the existence of a significant AGI-EnemyINT value, as it bears no significance outside of this WS. However, at the same time, I will admit that some of the WSes can be a bit unorthodox in nature. If anything, I'm simply calling for ye olde KI CORs that have the WS to do some more testing on mobs that actually don't cap your dINT. If the speculated formula ends up holding true through any further testing, though, I apologize to the creator for my skepticism.

Edit: I should note that the creator of the speculated formula did acknowledge that dINT could potentially be a part of the formula, but they did not proceed with further testing due to inability to solo higher level mobs than 50? Furthermore, I recently came across a post where the same person noticed in Ballista tests that the user's INT did have an effect and that there could very well be a dINT, but this isn't even reflected at all in their formula. Interesting.

[Corrderio]

I don't think there's a lot of testing for Leaden Salute just because it doesn't seem like in the cases where you actually gain TP, Slugshot is better.

[Kilhart]

I don't think there's a lot of testing for Leaden Salute just because it doesn't seem like in the cases where you actually gain TP, Slugshot is better.

There are various HNMs, such as Tiamat, Ixion, SW, KB, or Aspid where TPing on nearby mobs is perfectly viable. Of course, it's yet to be resolved whether or not the damage is significant, but that's a different story. LS is also quite useful for magic resistant mobs, such as flans.

[KadajPhD]

Slightly off topic, but I wonder if we could somehow convince SE to make Quick Draw a TP-return ability, like Jumps. I think that would allow us to make much better use of this WS vs HNM's while we're sub /mage.

[Lambtor]

Slightly off topic, but I wonder if we could somehow convince SE to make Quick Draw a TP-return ability, like Jumps. I think that would allow us to make much better use of this WS vs HNM's while we're sub /mage.

I'd hate to see this as it'd also feed the mob at least the same amount of TP. Part of the beauty of QD is it gives and returns 0 TP.

[Corrderio]

All I want to see is more M.Atk gear COR can use. Or some more enhances QD gear.

[Arkley]

I'd hate to see this as it'd also feed the mob at least the same amount of TP. Part of the beauty of QD is it gives and returns 0 TP.

Nothing against you personally or anything, but that gets a spot among the most retardeds thing I've ever read on these forums. You don't want QD to return TP to a COR, a function that would incredibly useful in any situation but particularly since Leaden Salute was introduced, because it would mean the mob would get an extra 10 TP? Every 50-60 seconds?

I suppose the 300-350 damage QD can deal to an HNM isn't worth the extra 10 TP per shot the mob will get. Prolly better tell all your DDs to disengage then, 'cause I guarentee you, even if QD did give the mob TP, it would still be the best DMG to TP given ratio aside from BLMs & SMNs.

[Kilhart]

even if QD did give the mob TP, it would still be the best DMG to TP given ratio aside from BLMs & SMNs.

You forgot Chi Blast

[Lambtor]

Nothing against you personally or anything, but that gets a spot among the most retardeds thing I've ever read on these forums. You don't want QD to return TP to a COR, a function that would incredibly useful in any situation but particularly since Leaden Salute was introduced, because it would mean the mob would get an extra 10 TP? Every 50-60 seconds?

I suppose the 300-350 damage QD can deal to an HNM isn't worth the extra 10 TP per shot the mob will get. Prolly better tell all your DDs to disengage then, 'cause I guarentee you, even if QD did give the mob TP, it would still be the best DMG to TP given ratio aside from BLMs & SMNs.

would this TP be put to use in a HNM situation? my guess is no. it's not worth it to have us actually shooting HNMs so this TP from QD isn't going to get added to ranged atks. Most of us are macroing in an elemental staff for QD, and are likely to change staves based on weather/day or for other reasons (sleeping elementals as needed at cerb or tiamat for example).

you're talking about if QD would be worth the TP it'd feed the mob. that's not the issue. the issue is if the TP you'd gain from using QD could be turned into a worthwhile amount of damage. you're not going to be slugging any HNMs, so throw that out. Detonator isn't going to be for large amounts of damage but having a standby option for another light SC might be nice (too bad we can't make light with SAM), assuming you can land it. leaden salute as a standby option for another darkness might be nice too.

for the 100ish TP you'd feed the mob over the course of 10? QDs (going by your assumption of 10TP per), you'd get a WS once every 9-10 minutes (maybe 8 if RD resets your QD)? during this time you'd not be able to change elemental staves or guns (likely not a big deal), or rest for MP/HP (if outside wotg/signet areas). hopefully your target doesn't inflict plague either. hope your chosen elemental staff allows you to do some dmg with your 10 minute WS- chances are it'll either get massive resist on leaden salute if not a "misses" message from anything else that needs your 266 marksmanship.

sure, QD returning TP would be a huge boost for COR in an HNM situation.

[Kilhart]

would this TP be put to use in a HNM situation? my guess is no. it's not worth it to have us actually shooting HNMs so this TP from QD isn't going to get added to ranged atks. Most of us are macroing in an elemental staff for QD, and are likely to change staves based on weather/day or for other reasons (sleeping elementals as needed at cerb or tiamat for example).

you're talking about if QD would be worth the TP it'd feed the mob. that's not the issue. the issue is if the TP you'd gain from using QD could be turned into a worthwhile amount of damage. you're not going to be slugging any HNMs, so throw that out. Detonator isn't going to be for large amounts of damage but having a standby option for another light SC might be nice (too bad we can't make light with SAM), assuming you can land it. leaden salute as a standby option for another darkness might be nice too.

for the 100ish TP you'd feed the mob over the course of 10? QDs (going by your assumption of 10TP per), you'd get a WS once every 9-10 minutes (maybe 8 if RD resets your QD)? during this time you'd not be able to change elemental staves or guns (likely not a big deal), or rest for MP/HP (if outside wotg/signet areas). hopefully your target doesn't inflict plague either. hope your chosen elemental staff allows you to do some dmg with your 10 minute WS- chances are it'll either get massive resist on leaden salute if not a "misses" message from anything else that needs your 266 marksmanship.

sure, QD returning TP would be a huge boost for COR in an HNM situation.

hi2u TP on adds

I find it surprising you reference Tiamat and still neglect this incredibly simple game mechanic.

But, anyways, I'll give you this: whether or not restricting yourself to a single staff would decrease your damage so much that Leaden Salute would be pointless is a valid consideration. Whether or not an extra 15 or so TP return on Quick Draw is a good thing, however, is not. It's a no-brainer. The fact that you include 0TP return as a positive effect from Quick Draw is just plain silly.

[Spider-Dan]

QD returning 0 TP has more value to COR in their limited, situational soloability (e.g. J-Fo) than returning >0 TP would in all other situations combined.

Staff-swaps resetting TP is the final, humongous, forged titanium nail in the coffin.

[nekura]

I'd hate to see this as it'd also feed the mob at least the same amount of TP. Part of the beauty of QD is it gives and returns 0 TP.

He said he wanted it to be like Jump, which gives the user TP but not the target so anyone who's like "RARGH BUT THEN THE MOB WOULD BE GETTING TP" is missing the point. :b