[Doodlebug]

You should have to pass a basic civics class before you are allowed to vote imo.

Not just a civics class but an overall intelligence test.

I am shocked at how uneducated my state is... They actually voted Yes to Amendment 2... and I'm sure more than half didn't know what the fuck it meant.

It wasn't banning gay marriages!! There's already a god damn law that bans gay marriages in Florida!! In order to ban something it has to be LEGAL! NO WHERE in the text of Amendment 2 does it fucking say that you'll be taking away the right for gays to MARRY! Holy shit people, common sense go!

Quite honestly, if you don't take the time to read over what it's asking, or understand what it's asking... then leave it blank!! You're messing with peoples lives by just filling in whatever

[Vigilous]

"This amendment protects marriage as the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife and provides that no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof shall be valid or recognized."

Taken from the actual amendment.

Are you sure you understood it? What this amendment is designed for are those same-sex couples who get married in another state or country. This will maintain that, regardless of where the marriage took place, Florida will not recognize it as a legal union, ensuring that they will not be eligible for any marriage-related benefits from employer or state.

This amendment is bad because now there are two separate rulings keeping gay marriage out of Florida. It essentially cements the first in place, making things harder to move forward.

[Crispleaf]

Speltz is sort of right, and sort of wrong.

It depends on what is meant by taking pride in your country.

As a soldier, for example, the concept of Republican or Democrat has no place and no point, the people you're with are all Americans. As someone helping the poor and distressed in the country, for another example, there's no place for political divisions either. It's Americans helping Americans. In these cases, you take pride in your country and it doesn't matter what the policies are.

However, as a voting citizens, it's absolutely vital to be critical and reflective. In this context, you would be remiss and irresponsible not to question the direction of the country. Every single adult citizen should understand the issues, and vote. In this context, if you're not "proud" of the way your country was headed, then it's up to you to vote for change. And I believe Americans just did that. And that's something to be proud of.

[Cruzandercerberus]

I like all the people that honestly think that's the only reason he won.

Think about it this way, had he been Barry O'sullivan, White Liberal Junior Senator from Chicago he never would have taken the party nomination from Hillary. He would have remained a locally well liked politician but he wouldn't have been the democratic party nominee this election cycle.

[Speltz]

You missed my point. My point is, I hate it how if you don't agree with what your country does, like for instance, go to war with Iraq...it doesn't mean you're for the other side automatically with no other way of explaining yourself. Isn't there at -least- bit of hypocrisy in what you're trying to say?

No, I didn't. You're just not getting it.

Speltz has been dippin' into that crazy Joe the Plumber Kool-Aid. You don't have to go anywhere, however I am for shipping "real America," the Speltzs and Joes of the US off to Bikini Atoll.^^

Waaaah waaah. Cry more pussy. And Dia is just pissed I talk shit about his stupid fuck of a biscuit 'n mustard eating lawnmower-repairing father who fails at providing for his family. Oh, and I get his threads locked because he doesn't want to hear the other side of a political argument. He'll probably actually call a mod on this post and get it deleted. Kinda like he did with the last post we went at it in.

And Crisp got it, what I was trying to say, I mean, with the first paragraph. When I said it's based on the individual, I mean certain things people do shouldn't make you falter in your partriotism. And yes, I do think you should try to fight and vote to make the country a better place. For instance, about the Clinton / Lewinsky matter, one could say "Wow, this makes America look bad." In my opinion, I would say, "No, America is great, this is just a bunch of horny fucktards in the White House." The same with Bush and his invasion. People could say, "Wow, fuck this country. America is evil. Fucking warmongers." Again, nope. This is not the whole country. America is still great despite the fact a bad choice was made. Blind patriotism? Maybe, but for the country itself, not for the decisions made in higher places that the good people of America had no say in. If you honestly can't see this, you're fucking retarded. I'll love my country because it's built upon great dreams and ideals.

Let me break it down for you, in case you still don't get it for some reason.

I love America. I always have, always will. Bush invaded Iraq. Did this cause me to hate America? The land that has provided for me and protected me all my life? No. This was Bush, not the rest of the people / institutions of America. And quite frankly, like some idiot said earlier, I don't care what other countries think of us in this way. Bush or America as a whole, they can go fuck themselves. But as Crisp said, yes, everyone should try to vote to make this country even more of a great place. What can I say, I'm loyal. Most of you don't understand what I'm trying to say, for some odd reason. Being proud or not proud of what your government has done is NOT the same as being proud of your country of a whole. But then again, that's based on opinion, so I'll just leave it at that.

And this is beautiful:

America wont change because of a leader. its going to take social reform. everyone is going to have to do their part. If you want to believe you can shut your eyes and leave it all up to one man. then so be it. but then nothing would ever get done. I really do hope he turns out to be the man that can help the country as much as you all are hoping.. but im not holding my breath.

One thing ive learned. Never EVER trust a politician

Well said, sir.


But yeah. I love my country. It's great, and so are the people. People do fucked up stuff in higher places, but we're even more great for persevering these trials. Anyway, I've said what I've said, and I'm done.


Oh, and one more thing.

QQ more.

Fucking great argument. Thanks for bringing something new to the table.

[Korevont]

Think about it this way, had he been Barry O'sullivan, White Liberal Junior Senator from Chicago he never would have taken the party nomination from Hillary. He would have remained a locally well liked politician but he wouldn't have been the democratic party nominee this election cycle.

Very true, but I'm arguing against the notion that him being black is the ONLY reason he was voted in. Though it very well might have been one of the factors, and a major one at that for sure.

Plus, there's just something weird about the statement, "Pft. He only won because he was black." that sounds rather lame. There was obviously a degree of personality, charisma, and policies that appealed to enough of the population to propel him to the presidency.

Black candidates have ran for President before, this wasn't the first time. Their "black-ness" certainly didn't guarantee them a victory, and it didn't for Obama either.

But don't get the wrong idea, I'm not disagreeing with you, his ethnicity definitely did help him to stand out from his white counterparts.

Edit:

Did I say I thought that?

Don't believe I did champ

I was stating that I love the people that did vote for him because he was black

Read my post better

Did I say you thought that?
Don't believe I did champ
Read my post better

[Dazd]

It's amazing how many people buy into propaganda so easily. Everyone is basically equating Obama to Jesus like he's just going to walk in and fix everything with a wave of his hand. Would have thought most people would have learned by now that just because a politician says he'll do something doesn't always guarantee that it will happen. Some shit Congress won't let happen and some of the shit they say is just a flat out lie to get where they are. The way so many people are just blindly following him is kind of scary.

[DianaraVP]

Do you REALLY think that mindset was localized to 4 ppl in harlem? They had no fucking clue as to what obama's policies were....so clue me in on why you think they are voting for obama? On the flip side I'm sure there were plenty of whites who voted against him strictly on race as well. Both scenarious are just flat out stupid. You should have to pass a basic civics class before you are allowed to vote imo.

I've heard the Howard Stern clip, and I have already answered this before when someone brought it up then... Since when does Howard Stern qualify as a credible source. Period. There are so many reasons why that clip could be false, biased, and/or comedic that one could not possibly draw any academic conclusions based on it.

Look, there are people who probably voted for him because he is black, as there are those who did not vote for him because he is a person of color, but that does not mean this group of people represents some significant portion of the population who had any sort of influence on the election. In fact, most of the statistics coming out about the election are suggesting that people were able to vote for Obama with little if any regard to his race. Again, I challenge you to find a credible source that suggests there is some substantial group of people who voted based on race alone or even as the deciding criteria.

I will be happy to eat my words if I am wrong, but I followed this election with obsessive interest, and I don't believe that I am based on the information coming out of the election.

And Cruz, you really should know better. You really should. Listen to how you sound saying that.

You should have to pass a basic civics class before you are allowed to vote imo.

This is less a critique of the American people than it is our educational system and our culture. These people aren't stupid. They would like to know more than they do, but they haven't had a reason to be engaged. This is a page straight from J.S. Mill's playbook; the people in democracies have a tenancy to become complacent when things are going well. Occasionally they need to be tried and tested in order to renew their fervor of democracy.

I don't agree with anything that would prevent another from voting. Stupid people are people nonetheless, and everyone has their reasons for voting the way they do. Hell, I saw someone flip a coin to decide their vote, which to me is a general disregard for the democratic process, but that doesn't mean that she should be denied her right to vote. It's hard to say why people do what they do, but we will see the consequences of their actions and it will determine how we deal with those people in the future (ie. reform and adequate funding in education).

It's complicated.






Speltz, I hope I catch you on the streets one day. I really hope so.

[Doodlebug]

Taken from the actual amendment.

Are you sure you understood it? What this amendment is designed for are those same-sex couples who get married in another state or country. This will maintain that, regardless of where the marriage took place, Florida will not recognize it as a legal union, ensuring that they will not be eligible for any marriage-related benefits from employer or state.

This amendment is bad because now there are two separate rulings keeping gay marriage out of Florida. It essentially cements the first in place, making things harder to move forward.

I completely understand what the amendment states. You're correct it does mean they will not be eligible for any benefits.

Unfortunately, the state of Florida flipped out because they thought if they voted "NO" for the amendment they would be stating that marriage should not be only between a man and woman therefore allowing gay marriage. People did not take the time to read it and understand what it was stating. They simply saw it as a ban. Even the news around here is stating that Florida has now "banned" gay marriages. This amendment was to only help gay/lesbian couples in benefits that man + woman marriages would get... like medical benefits and such...

People just don't take the time to read and research

[Speltz]

Speltz, I hope I catch you on the streets one day. I really hope so.

Bring it on, big guy. Bring. It. ON.

[Cruzandercerberus]

And Cruz, you really should know better. You really should. Listen to how you sound saying that.

When being black is an advantage I sound bad for saying it? I think saying that being black was not disadvantageous for Obama is just being honest. Sorry if that sounds like heresy to the progressive mindset, but this is a paradigm shifting election.

I voted for him btw.

[Crispleaf]

I don't agree with anything that would prevent another from voting. Stupid people are people nonetheless, and everyone has their reasons for voting the way they do. Hell, I saw someone flip a coin to decide their vote, which to me is a general disregard for the democratic process, but that doesn't mean that she should be denied her right to vote. It's hard to say why people do what they do, but we will see the consequences of their actions and it will determine how we deal with those people in the future (ie. reform and adequate funding in education).

Actually, I personally believe that only those who served in the military or performed community service for at least a year or two should get to vote. Everyone should be allowed to earn this right to vote, taking into account disabilities, etc. but they should earn it.

I can't help help but feel like veterans deserve a much greater say than anyone else, because they gave up so much more than anyone else for this country. They put their lives on the line for this country. They had friends who gave up their lives for this country.

No matter how much I disagree with a veteran's politics, I will always respect their opinion because they have earned their say.

[Cruzandercerberus]

Crispleaf you're talking about Vested citizenship. Like in the book Starship troopers where you are not automatically a citizen without entering federal service.

It doesn't have to be "military" service exactly but you're talking about some kind of rite of passage that makes people earn the right to vote (and other rights of citizenship).

Here is how I would do it. First of all if you are under 21 you lose the ability vote, legally consent to sex, drive, purchase tobacco, drink, and serve in the military in a combat capacity. All of these things are granted after the completion of a 3 year term of federal service starting at age 18.

When kids turn 18 they all take an general aptitude test to find them a federal job appropriate to their skill level. Considering the intelligence of the average American this test will make most of them ditch diggers and the like. However some of the bright ones can do administrative work. You move away from home to live in a barracks with kids the same age where you will do three years of unpaid labor on government projects (with room and board covered of course) such as bridges, levees, dams, railroads, power plants, and other vital infrastructure. Those who want to opt out of this may volunteer for military service instead (but they must spend three years training before being deployed-except in a case of extreme national emergency.

Ideally we integrate job training into the period of civil service. So we have kids coming out ready to be apprentice electricians, bricklayers and such for the lower tiers and the kids doing administrative service can go to college with a voucher that covers all general education courses (so they only have to take classes for their major and minor to receive a bachelors degree) and the kids who just had 3 years of military training are prepared to begin a career in the military. Anyway at age 21 they all come out full legal adults and citizens with the rights and privileges thereof and hopefully some marketable job skills and a little discipline.

It's a fascist ideal, But it would work. And it's really pretty close to some of the plans Obama has described for expanded federal "Volunteer" programs in exchange for expanded government benefits. Except his doesn't have the negative aspects of losing rights if you choose not to participate.

[Crispleaf]

Crispleaf you're talking about Vested citizenship. Like in the book Starship troopers where you are not automatically a citizen without entering federal service.

Yeah, that's exactly where I heard it from. Too bad the movie didn't do this justice.

But I absolutely love this idea.

[DianaraVP]

Actually, I personally believe that only those who served in the military or performed community service for at least a year or two should get to vote. Everyone should be allowed to earn this right to vote, taking into account disabilities, etc. but they should earn it.

Sorry, but this borders crazy talk. What does this say about the educated class, or the working middle class who pays their taxes. You don't have to earn your right to choose who represents you. It is one of those unalienable rights that our forefathers felt was one of the fundamental principles of our democracy. The country works for the people, not the other way around.

Yes, we have a civic duty to be informed and involved in our society, but it is not up to the government to decide how we should contribute. We have to earn it by being responsible and informed, and it should not be limited to some sort of military or civil service. Simply put, your scope is entirely too limited.

I do agree with you to an extent. Again, we need to be involved in society and informed about the issues our country is dealing with. I do not think that we should limit the scope of that participation to governmental service of any kind.

I can't help help but feel like veterans deserve a much greater say than anyone else, because they gave up so much more than anyone else for this country. They put their lives on the line for this country. They had friends who gave up their lives for this country.

Yes, they made a great sacrifice, but it doesn't mean they are better informed or more human. Their opinions are valuable and we should appreciate them, but that doesn't mean they are any more valuable than say an economist or an assembly line worker. It's about equality my friend.




Cruz, I find those comments ironic coming from you. Do you realize how that would curb our freedoms in this country? That is a horrible idea. You cannot possibly agree with that position, right?

[Korevont]

Crispleaf you're talking about Vested citizenship. Like in the book Starship troopers where you are not automatically a citizen without entering federal service.

It doesn't have to be "military" service exactly but you're talking about some kind of rite of passage that makes people earn the right to vote (and other rights of citizenship).

Here is how I would do it. First of all if you are under 21 you lose the ability vote, legally consent to sex, drive, purchase tobacco, drink, and serve in the military in a combat capacity. All of these things are granted after the completion of a 3 year term of federal service starting at age 18.

When kids turn 18 they all take an general aptitude test to find them a federal job appropriate to their skill level. Considering the intelligence of the average American this test will make most of them ditch diggers and the like. However some of the bright ones can do administrative work. You move away from home to live in a barracks with kids the same age where you will do three years of unpaid labor on government projects (with room and board covered of course) such as bridges, levees, dams, railroads, power plants, and other vital infrastructure. Those who want to opt out of this may volunteer for military service instead (but they must spend three years training before being deployed-except in a case of extreme national emergency.

Ideally we integrate job training into the period of civil service. So we have kids coming out ready to be apprentice electricians, bricklayers and such for the lower tiers and the kids doing administrative service can go to college with a voucher that covers all general education courses (so they only have to take classes for their major and minor to receive a bachelors degree) and the kids who just had 3 years of military training are prepared to begin a career in the military. Anyway at age 21 they all come out full legal adults and citizens with the rights and privileges thereof and hopefully some marketable job skills and a little discipline.

It's a fascist ideal, But it would work. And it's really pretty close to some of the plans Obama has described for expanded federal "Volunteer" programs in exchange for expanded government benefits. Except his doesn't have the negative aspects of losing rights if you choose not to participate.

You're right. It is fascist.

Since we're at it, let's call this hypothetical America "NeoSPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTAAA"

[Cruzandercerberus]

I was just explaining how it works, or how it would If I was placed in charge of such a program. If people don't understand it, they can't criticize or condone it. I personally don't think it's a good idea. Once the government is in control of everyone's future, nepotism and corruption is absolutely inevitable.

Since we're at it, let's call this hypothetical America "NeoSPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTAAA"

I lol'd. Many internets for you good sir.

[Crispleaf]

It's not a policy I would simply want to see imposed without the people having their say about it. If a super-majority of the people wanted this, then hey, count me among them, but I doubt this will ever, ever happen.

It would just be nice if people had incentive to invest a little more of their soul into the country and take ownership of it. That's really what I like about the idea.

[Korevont]

It's not a policy I would simply want to see imposed without the people having their say about it. If a super-majority of the people wanted this, then hey, count me among them, but I doubt this will ever, ever happen.

It would just be nice if people had incentive to invest a little more of their soul into the country and take ownership of it. That's really what I like about the idea.

Some people care more than others.

Some care too much, and some care too little.

Nothing will ever fix that, and sometimes, I don't think it needs to be fixed. Even though some people aren't as well informed as others, the fact that they care enough about the process is a satisfying fact for me. Because for the people that just honestly don't care what happens to the country, are the ones that don't bother mustering up the energy to go vote to begin with, and thus, aren't a part of the equation.

[Uatu]

I've heard the Howard Stern clip, and I have already answered this before when someone brought it up then... Since when does Howard Stern qualify as a credible source. Period. There are so many reasons why that clip could be false, biased, and/or comedic that one could not possibly draw any academic conclusions based on it.

Nice attempt at discrediting anything that doesn't back your claim. I'll agree that it was intended to be comedic, but the comedy lies in the fact that those were real people who really had no clue what the hell they were voting about. My only point was that if even if that were only 3 people out of a hundred, hell a thousand, interviewed that gave this response then there could be hundreds of thousands out of the 120 million'ish ppl who voted who felt the exact same way. Again i ask...even if it were that one person...if he has no clue about any of obama's policies but still is adamantly supporting him....what exactly is he supporting?