[GamezAsura]

So I was noticing in this screen people saying they were going to run Fraps etc, I know the member from my old shell(Pinn) didn't manage to run his Fraps, so did anyone else get a collection of screens, this is the only one we could scratch up off our PCs between me and my gf sadly, and it doesn't even half half the people who were there in it.

Good times, rich history, I just want a good collection of everyone's screen shots.

[Cutencuddly]

I crashed before Vrtra fight but I did find these.

[Antithesis]

I remember someone posted more pictures in the LolOrophinn thread of the Vrtra day.

[Crisco]

I remember someone posted more pictures in the LolOrophinn thread of the Vrtra day.

^

[GamezAsura]

Yeah, I know at least one more person definately had some screens, I think it might've been Futchy... but anyways, was hoping there was some decent ones, thanks CC.

[Animusprime]

Looked threw all my screens. Could not find a single one.

[Urste]

Enjoy.

[Gredival]

Man some of those people I see definitely have no room to be jumping on any bandwagons. Napo? Futchy?

[AroHurst]

Man some of those people I see definitely have no room to be jumping on any bandwagons. Napo? Futchy?

It was kinda the point of the linkshell. Everybody was welcome to join, regardless of reputation. Once a ton of people were in the shell chatting it up, tackling Vrtra was a spur of the moment decision. lulz were had by all.


Gamez is awesome.

[Gredival]

I think it kinda defeats the whole "ORO IS A COMMUNIST LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE HATE HIM" point Kayos was trying to make when you have the equivalent of the Nazis on your side.

[Palo_Asura]

I think it kinda defeats the whole "ORO IS A COMMUNIST LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE HATE HIM" point Kayos was trying to make when you have the equivalent of the Nazis on your side.

The backlash against Orophinn was never about a collective moral correction. The thread and event signaled the newest shift in the end-game power dynamics away from Tribe and towards Remedy. This was hardly unique: BTD signaled the power shift from Machina to Tribe; Tuan and the first server migration signaled the power shift from HP to Machina. I know very little of what happened before or since.

I think the sequence echoes international politics. Keeping that in mind, I'm not sure moral absolutism was ever the point. It's all in regime changes: Pax Machina, Pax Tribica, Pax Remedica? Sigh, I'm such a dork. I couldn't resist commenting - hello everyone!

(BTW: The assumption of power doesn't mean the most successful or 'best' linkshell. I just mean the most prominent and influential, in and off game. Precedence, Nantekotta, Eminence, Maverick, etc were all extremely competent and could very well argue to have killed more, earned more drops, and were overall more skillful in the same way that some smaller nations may boast about having better living standards and life expectancy than the United States. But no one can argue the relative positions of influence, for better or worse.)

[Blackmoon]

I love when Palo posts. I miss him so.

[Gredival]

But doesn't the position influence always come with some semblance or pretense of legitimacy? Being in a position of influence allows, to some extent, shells to determine what is right and what is not. For example, I do think the big shells can get away with more things than other shells.

But at the same time, the exercise of influence is not arbitrarily decided. These verdicts tend to come with attached reasoning. For example, the NA Linkshell community galvanized the server against Armada, Shitcakes, Veritas, Toxity and Remake and it had a host of justifications for each of these. Even in the inter-shell drama wars between the legitimate shells there were always attempts to undermine each others legitimacy. That's where the accusations of botting or corruption or lack of skill always came in.

I found the lolOrophinn to be the same fundamental tactic: erosion of legitimacy. It was only employed by and towards an individual this time, but it is still damaging to the shell by virtue of association. However I think this tactic fundamentally loses force when you are employing people delegitimized by this very process. If anything what this did was promote the common non-end game player understanding that end game consisted of amoral and hypocritical piranhas that don't care about being right, just about tearing each other down.

Moreover what power does influence even wield in Asura at this point? Even delegitmized as the US is, its influence still wields significant discrete advantages in the geopolitical sphere. The same is not true of Asura. As evidenced by the success of the 24/7 morons, Asura itself proved to be too amoral to be moved by concerns for legitimacy, reputation, or fair play. What we've got today is the equivalent of first world citizens joining up with Al Queda at the promise of 72 virgins, legitimacy (as determined by the superpower) be damned.

[Sozsensur]

I think your attempt to link Asura too closely to the anology Palo and yourself created is losing steam.

On the topic of the Final Fantasy video game, enough people cared about shitting on Orophinn that they came together to Vrtra. That doesn't mean he was the worst, that doesn't mean everybody cared on the same level, that doesn't mean that all problems were solved. It just means that that many people got Ported and OP'd to come to KRT. That's it. And spare me Tribe's woes; I have never had a problem with Echandra, and Echandra has never really been a dick, but Echandra(who I reference because in my mind, he is the most important Tribe member that I know is in Tribe) is the same non-dick when Oro was in power that he is now. So if nothing has changed, you can't really expect the mindset towards Tribe to change. If he had no problem sitting back while all the previous hatred of Tribe's dominence was prevalent, then he can sit back while people assume that Tribe sucks because they don't claim anything major. And if he's really as self-confident as he appears, "you guys hate Tribe" doesn't bother him anywhere as near as it seems to bother you.

2) If you think that just because 24/7 has some stranglehold on bottable content, that 1) they are premier, or 2) there's nothing Asura can do about it, you're crazy. If Asura is so amoral, then it should only be so much time before they alienate the entire server, and the entire server comes down on them. However,

3) The reason that 24/7 still has a stranglehold on so much content, is because currently the only influential linkshell to challenge them is Remedy, and they don't care. Sure, you can get a few posts on a Red Mage equipment thread, but Remedy will keep doing their instance shit, with the intention to get maybe one more pair of Gaiters from poppable content, and 24/7 will continue to try to justify their skill level with King gear.
3B) Besides the fact that all previously dominant Asura shells other than Remedy have bowed out, 24/7 doesn't have the hatred of the whole community. In fact, there are many people who, thanks to 2005-6 and then the App list, think that botting is perfectly okay, so that doesn't hold nearly as much water as Remedy and SML posters(and other unimportant people who like to see their words on this forum) think it does. Remedy doesn't care, SML doesn't camp, so where is the consequences? No, in fact, 24/7 has a silent support system of people who know better than to come on here and defend 24/7, but they certainly don't sit around in their vents talking shit just because Remedy does.

And finally, off the topic of Final Fantasy, everybody who reads the Jihad and blows themselves up isn't the enemy. Turn FOX and CNN off.

Sorry guys, I probably should have posted a halftime picture, this one was a long one.

[Gredival]

On the topic of the Final Fantasy video game, enough people cared about shitting on Orophinn that they came together to Vrtra. That doesn't mean he was the worst, that doesn't mean everybody cared on the same level, that doesn't mean that all problems were solved. It just means that that many people got Ported and OP'd to come to KRT. That's it.

In my mind Kayos was calling Orophinn out publicly for a reason. This wasn't some personal spat where Kayos could have just left his complaints in the Tribe forum and left in the same way a number of others did. He made a show of it.

I'm not arguing anything about whether he was right in his argument, or whether making a show of it was right. I'm saying that the public nature of this spat had a purpose in the same way the creation of a shell had a purpose. If the shell was meant to represent how many people disliked him for the stuff he has done, I feel that such a representation was about delegitimizing Oro morally. I mean who would care about how many people hate this one guy if they have no reason for it? The reason was introduced by Kayos on KI. It was also repeated, expounded upon, etc. by a number of other people who joined in on the bashing.

And spare me Tribe's woes; I have never had a problem with Echandra, and Echandra has never really been a dick, but Echandra(who I reference because in my mind, he is the most important Tribe member that I know is in Tribe) is the same non-dick when Oro was in power that he is now. So if nothing has changed, you can't really expect the mindset towards Tribe to change. If he had no problem sitting back while all the previous hatred of Tribe's dominence was prevalent, then he can sit back while people assume that Tribe sucks because they don't claim anything major. And if he's really as self-confident as he appears, "you guys hate Tribe" doesn't bother him anywhere as near as it seems to bother you.

What are you talking about "Tribe's woes"? I'm not here to talk about the rightness or wrongness or justifiability of what Kayos did and its effects on Tribe. I'm merely talking about what I perceive to be the empirical chain of events. I disagree with Palo that this little stunt in and of itself propelled Remedy to influence. Again, who would care about how many people hate this one guy if they have no reason for it? I feel that if Palo is right that Remedy truly became the "influential shell of the server" after this, it was because this stunt had delegitimized Tribe's leadership.

And it doesn't bother me what you think of Tribe, especially considering I'm not in Tribe anymore. I just think that it's nonsensical to be talking about how much Orophinn is a dick when you're next to people like Futchy and Napolean. As I said, to me it's like calling someone a communist when the person next to you is a Nazi war criminal.

2) If you think that just because 24/7 has some stranglehold on bottable content, that 1) they are premier, or 2) there's nothing Asura can do about it, you're crazy. If Asura is so amoral, then it should only be so much time before they alienate the entire server, and the entire server comes down on them.

I didn't say they are premiere. They are skillless botters.

But even though they succeeded for reasons other than skill, but it seems to me that Asura is in fact unable to do anything about it. They have enough secondary and tertiary toons to MPK other shells with little repercussion to themselves, and they have a secondary alliance ready to compensate for the fact they can't kill shit with one alliance.

They got pushed out of how many servers before Asura though? Why did they succeed here instead of elsewhere? I think the answer has to do with Asura, not them.

3) The reason that 24/7 still has a stranglehold on so much content, is because currently the only influential linkshell to challenge them is Remedy, and they don't care. Sure, you can get a few posts on a Red Mage equipment thread, but Remedy will keep doing their instance shit, with the intention to get maybe one more pair of Gaiters from poppable content, and 24/7 will continue to try to justify their skill level with King gear.
3B) Besides the fact that all previously dominant Asura shells other than Remedy have bowed out, 24/7 doesn't have the hatred of the whole community. In fact, there are many people who, thanks to 2005-6 and then the App list, think that botting is perfectly okay, so that doesn't hold nearly as much water as Remedy and SML posters(and other unimportant people who like to see their words on this forum) think it does. Remedy doesn't care, SML doesn't camp, so where is the consequences? No, in fact, 24/7 has a silent support system of people who know better than to come on here and defend 24/7, but they certainly don't sit around in their vents talking shit just because Remedy does.

True. And this is fundamentally why Asura can't do anything about them. Because a large portion of the server is amoral and don't care about joining them to get their gear, and those who do think what they do is fundamentally wrong don't care enough to fight them.

[AroHurst]

Put a fucking sock in it. It was a fun time had by all involved regardless of their linkshell association or reputation.

It was one of the only times in Asuran history that people were able to look past their blind hatred of others to bond together for a common cause, and for that, the event had merit. If it was at Oro's expense, who the hell cares?

Quit overanalyzing everything.

[splynk]

If I recall, Kayos had to do it publicly, because whatever he posted on Tribe forums got Nazi'd by Oro.

[Gredival]

Put a fucking sock in it. It was a fun time had by all involved regardless of their linkshell association or reputation.

It was one of the only times in Asuran history that people were able to look past their blind hatred of others to bond together for a common cause, and for that, the event had merit. If it was at Oro's expense, who the hell cares?

I don't really care whether or not it was at Oro's expense; I explicitly said I'm withholding judgment on whether Kayos' had legitimate grievances. Oro may have very well deserved scorn. What I care about was how this little movement slammed Oro for the way he led his shell and all the dubious things that he's done then turned around embraced people who have done things way worse than Oro.

And your line of justification is even more troubling. It's fine because we got some shits and giggles out of it? I'm sure Napolean got some shits and giggles from teaching the GS how to do sky. Isn't this the same way people join up with 24/7 for the sake of their gear too?

And certainly you specifically don't have a right to preach about not judging people on their linkshell association or reputation all things considered: you tried to argue you didn't have to listen to anything I had to say when I asked for an item back because I joined Tribe.

[Wildstriker]

And certainly you specifically don't have a right to preach about not judging people on their linkshell association or reputation considering; you tried to argue you didn't have to listen to anything I had to say when I asked for an item back because I joined Tribe.

This has piqued my interests.

[AroHurst]

And certainly you specifically don't have a right to preach about not judging people on their linkshell association or reputation all things considered: you tried to argue you didn't have to listen to anything I had to say when I asked for an item back because I joined Tribe.

I didn't have anything to say to you about it because it wasn't my item to give or not give back. I specifically directed you to address the person in question with your concerns. I fail to see where you get how that has anything to do with linkshell association. Enlighten me, o wise one.

I'd have said the same regardless of what linkshell you went to (have you worldshifted yet, btw? Hope you didn't do it without saying your goodbyes to Tribe first). The fact you left the linkshell you made to join one that you scorned for so long was just extra lulz in my book.


Edit to add: I also don't recall saying I've never demonized people over linkshell association. If you run with shit, you're gonna stink. My point was that it was nice that people could look past that for a common goal, not that people should lose their justified reputations.