[Treize Kordero]

I was just wondering has anyone tried this? I've seen minor mentions of it on the net but nothing detailed. I don't know what good it is but seems fun to play with.

Anyone got any information on DNC/DRG? especially at lvl 75

[Arian/Armel]

I can't say much about it myself, but it's fun.

Only place I've actually tried it at 75 is Ballista.

[Seibar]

lol, i guess with wyvern earring for another 5% haste it might be good?
/nin ftw though

[DaEvilOne]

im curious about /sam also, coupled with the new no foot rise it would seem like you could get 135%TP every 3 mins(assuming 5/5 reverse flourish merits), which just seems like you could do a ridiculous amount of ws's no matter how weak lolz. id just think since jumps give you the same tp as you'd get from a normal attack and daggers have low tp gain per hit /drg would lose its shine from that.

[Seibar]

/sam is only half good when your not using 2h weapons. you cant hasso or seigen, and meditate only gives 60tp

its feasible, but not usually practical

not to mention you loose your offhand weapon for a shield(lvl 30 one?)

[Arian/Armel]

/Sam is used for when you need TP when you're unable to obtain it through normal means easily.

No Foot Rise pretty much replaces Meditate now. Granted, it's still better than /Nin at low levels (party wise, situational shit is situational etc, etc) and is still useful if you do not have No Foot Rise merited.

Also, bringing up Hasso/Seigan is pointless since we all know DNC uses one-handed weapons.

/DRG is pretty good 30+ due to Wyvern Earring (and mantle I suppose as well) as mentioned earlier.

[Seibar]

/Sam is used for when you need TP when you're unable to obtain it through normal means easily.

No Foot Rise pretty much replaces Meditate now. Granted, it's still better than /Nin at low levels (party wise, situational shit is situations etc, etc) and is still useful if you do not have No Foot Rise merited.

Also, bringing up Hasso/Seigan is pointless since we all know DNC uses one-handed weapons.

/DRG is pretty good 30+ due to Wyvern Earring (and mantle I suppose as well) as mentioned earlier.

i know bringing up hasso/seigen was pointless, my point was that /sam is half-pointless since we don't use 2h weapons
drk/sam and war/sam do well since they DO use 2h weapons and can thereby use hasso also

/sam -just- for meditate is pretty pointless, situational at best

[Carynaira]

Airy buckler if you really want to use a shield.

[DaEvilOne]

yeah the like lvl 70 one with +1% haste and 1 agi or something like that.

what kind of effect do you get though when you have that much haste alone swinging a one handed low delay weapon already? is it like mini hundred fists or wut?

[Kras]

DNC/SAM is good. The storeTP bonus and meditate is a good enough reason to sub it. DNC/SAM is best for endgame

[mekaree]

DNC/SAM is good. The storeTP bonus and meditate is a good enough reason to sub it. DNC/SAM is best for endgame

I have to respectivefully disagree here. There is no way the 60tp you get with Meditate or the storeTP bonus make up for the tp you lose wielding only one weapon on a fully merited DNC. I can see how DNC/SAM is useful, but it's only VERY situational.

[Izod]

DNC/SAM is good. The storeTP bonus and meditate is a good enough reason to sub it. DNC/SAM is best for endgame

Baseless opinions are what make KI worthless.

[Requim]

/drg gives you potentially 5-6% more haste, attack bonus, and two jumps with a single wielded dagger. Sure they are pretty decent, but now compare it to...

sam/drg gains an additionally 5% haste (which would stack with haste samba giving it an even larger boost) with accuracy bonus, attack bonus, and two jumps WITH a 4~6 hit build. VERY DIFFERENT

Jumps on a dancer are a joke. Awesome, you gain an extra attack round when you should be attacking every 1-2 seconds. This does not in the least compare to a two hander with more than twice your delay shaving off an entire round to WS.

Now if you're talking about lower levels, sure it can be awesome. From 20-50 I could see it working quite well, but as you approach endgame /nin would trump /drg imo. You're gaining 20% DW that stacks with all your haste on top of being able to use a second weapon, which could be a joyeuse that would proc often enough to lol at your 3 jumps every 3 minutes. And if you went dual daggers with saber dance 20% DW would see a lot more damage potential than 5-6% haste.

As far as /sam, it has its uses, but honestly where I can see /sam really shining, like stuff you can't effectively melee on, I would suggest going another job to be more effective because if you can't gain TP on whatever you're fighting, you're on the wrong job for the wrong mob. Dnc/whm would be more effective than /sam just because if you can't gain at least 10 tp every 30 seconds you'll be more use cure IIIing.

[Kaparu]

DW doesn't stack with Haste.

Delay reduction diminishes, Haste increases.

[BellBookandCandle]

I have to respectivefully disagree here. There is no way the 60tp you get with Meditate or the storeTP bonus make up for the tp you lose wielding only one weapon on a fully merited DNC. I can see how DNC/SAM is useful, but it's only VERY situational.

Your brain must drip like an old hag with crotch rot if you can honestly say this with a straight face.

Since the proof of the pudding is in the eating:

Care of Kinematics~

Ech, code tags kinda messed up so here is a link to the specific post:

This post

CODE

Made some modifications to my spreadsheet to account for accuracy, as well as use of Joyeuse (with its own accuracy config), as those issues have come up a lot recently. As this got rather complicated, the overall spreadsheet is far too large to post now, so I instead constructed a summary format listing TP/minute.


Accuracy assumptions:
Acc+ trait given at 30. Still no solid info on possible second Acc+ trait, so none given. [Edit: added second accuracy trait based on confirmation below.]
Sushi is given as a flat +40 acc (+20% hit rate, capped at 95%) since I can't be bothered to micromanage it. [Edit: revised sushi's acc bonus at level 75 to +45.]
An A+ skill with the prevailing gear gets a nominal 75% hit rate before merits at all levels. [Edit: revised A+ default hit rate to 70%.]
Skill caps taken from here.
Cor sub is using Hunter's Roll always (level 22+), and averaging +13 acc. [Edit: average accuracy revised to +14.]

Gear assumptions:
Rajas given at 30
Suppa given at 70 as appropriate
Brutal given at 75
No haste gear except for the wyvern earring. (All subs should generally benefit equally from any haste gear.)
Nin offhand weapon is same delay as main weapon (ie: delay is average delay), except for Joyeuse.

Meditate left out of the first line for Sam to show normal melee TP gain.


Main weapon delay of 180

            Level                     Sushi          Sushi         Sushi   Merits  Sushi+Merits
               20    30    50     60     60     70     70     75     75       75      75
Baseline     68.5  75.9  74.9   81.1   98.8   73.8   94.6   77.4  102.3     85.3   106.0
War          68.5  75.9  82.2   89.4  108.7   81.1  104.0   84.8  112.4     93.3   116.1
War w/Joy                                                                   95.8   131.7
Nin          73.0  81.0  83.3   90.2  109.8   87.2  111.7   89.2  118.1     89.5   122.0
Nin w/Joy                                     90.5  118.5   86.0  118.5     96.0   126.0
Drg          70.7  82.1  80.9   88.0  107.2   81.2  104.0   85.3  112.5     93.7   116.3
Drg w/Joy                                                                   98.2   135.5
Sam          77.6  85.5  84.4   95.4  114.0   87.6  110.4   90.0  117.0     98.4   120.0
Sam w/Med                      115.4  134.0  107.6  130.4  110.0  137.0    118.4   140.0
Sam w/Joy                                                  118.6  156.8    130.2   168.3
Cor          75.5  83.2  82.2   88.4   98.8   81.1   98.8   85.3  106.0     92.8   106.0
Cor w/Joy                                                                  104.0   138.6




Main weapon delay of 190.

            Level                     Sushi          Sushi         Sushi   Merits  Sushi+Merits
               20    30    50     60     60     70     70     75     75       75      75
Baseline     67.1  74.5  73.4   79.4   97.2   72.4   92.9   75.9  100.1     83.1   103.4
War          67.1  74.5  81.0   87.5  106.9   79.9  102.1   83.1  110.0     91.3   113.3
War w/Joy                                                                   95.8   131.7
Nin          70.6  78.0  80.5   87.5  106.5   82.3  105.4   84.3  111.7     87.0   115.6
Nin w/Joy                                     88.5  116.0   84.0  115.5     94.0   123.0
Drg          69.4  80.9  79.7   86.0  104.9   79.9  102.1   83.6  110.2     91.7   114.1
Drg w/Joy                                                                   98.2   135.5
Sam          76.4  83.8  82.6   93.6  111.6   85.6  107.9   88.0  114.1     96.1   116.6
Sam w/Med                      113.6  131.6  105.6  127.9  108.0  134.1    116.1   136.6
Sam w/Joy                                                  118.6  156.8    130.2   168.3
Cor          74.4  81.5  80.5   86.9   97.2   79.4   97.2   83.1  103.4     90.8   103.4
Cor w/Joy                                                                  104.0   138.6




Main weapon delay of 201

            Level                     Sushi          Sushi         Sushi   Merits  Sushi+Merits
               20    30    50     60     60     70     70     75     75       75      75
Baseline     67.7  74.7  73.5   79.8   96.9   72.4   92.9   76.0  100.3     83.5   103.8
War          67.7  74.7  80.9   87.8  106.6   79.8  102.0   82.9  110.2     91.6   113.7
War w/Joy                                                                   95.8   131.7
Nin          68.5  75.9  78.0   84.2  102.5   80.0  103.0   82.0  108.5     86.7   112.0
Nin w/Joy                                     87.7  114.2   83.1  114.2     92.8   121.9
Drg          70.2  80.8  79.7   86.7  105.6   79.8  102.7   83.5  110.3     92.0   114.0
Drg w/Joy                                                                   98.2   135.5
Sam          75.6  84.4  83.2   94.4  112.2   86.5  108.2   89.1  114.8     97.0   118.1
Sam w/Med                      114.4  132.2  106.5  128.2  109.1  134.8    117.0   138.1
Sam w/Joy                                                  118.6  156.8    130.2   168.3
Cor          74.3  81.5  80.4   86.6   96.9   79.8   96.9   83.5  103.8     91.1   103.8
Cor w/Joy                                                                  104.0   138.6





Summaries:
Level 20 - Sam is the best overall, with Cor not far behind. Of the rest, Nin is decent with low delay daggers.
Level 30 - Cor and Drg are roughly tied, a bit behind Sam. Nin isn't too far behind with low delay daggers.
Level 50 - Drg and Cor slip slightly while War becomes competitive with Sam and Nin.
Level 60 - From here on, Sam can't lose in raw TP gain. War and Nin are still slightly ahead of Drg and Cor. Cor doesn't gain as much from using sushi.
Level 70 - Nin is slightly ahead of War, Drg and Cor. Nin with Joyeuse gains a nice push, putting it a fair bit ahead of the others even without merits.
Level 75 - Skill difference between dagger and sword means a Nin w/Joyeuse gains almost nothing over dual-daggers if not using sushi. Using Joyeuse with /sam (mainly with sushi) gains an obscene amount of TP.
Merit 75 - Without a Joyeuse, War, Drg and Cor are all ahead of Nin (though sushi puts Nin ahead of Cor). With a Joyeuse, Nin has a fairly substantial lead over the other three.


Caveats: Summary only represents TP gain, and not secondary benefits of the subs such as shadows from /nin or raising party accuracy with /cor.

Complete link~
Zam

[Banggugyangu]

DW doesn't stack with Haste.

Delay reduction diminishes, Haste increases.

I may be wrong, and correct me if I am, but wasn't haste found to be a deduction of your total initial delay by whatever percentage of haste you may have?

Whereas Haste + 20% on a weapon with delay: 400 would result in a final delay: 320 and Dual Wield @ 20% with 2x200 delay weapons would also result in 320 final delay?

Like I said, I may be wrong, but that's my understanding thus far.

[Requim]

It was an oversimplification to say it stacks (DW doesn't make haste better, it just improves tp dps), but I meant that you would benefit more from 20% DW than 5-6% haste and jumps. My point was you would attack faster with DW and haste. Looking back on it now I was looking at dnc/drg for merits where your damage output is also relevant. So even though DW is inferior to haste you're getting a lot more dual wield reduction than the haste bonus of wyvern earring, which gives more damage over time even if less tp. Pure tp gain, anything giving you added attacks, more haste, or more tp per hit would obviously have better tp gain, just debatable whether worth subbing for other reasons.

So that table is just for TP gain? Honestly, that table just doesn't seem that helpful. While sam w/joy is a lot of tp gain, can you actually land steps on anything important with a sword? Also by not including haste you've skewed the results against /drg. Anything I can see /sam's tp gain being awesome for, I would see a dnc/nin as better, not for tp gain, but for over all use of damage, avoiding damage, and acc of main hand dagger. Of course that is a different and more subjective argument.

While /drg is a neat sub I really don't see it being optimal for a job that can't fully benefit from the acc bonus, atk bonus, the two jumps, and the earring. First off for one handers the jumps are significantly less potent (jumps more useful the bigger/stronger/slower the weapon), a jump with a dagger nets you like 5 tp and maybe 50 damage, plus dancer already has acc bonus that doesn't stack and can pretty easily acquire 21%+ haste without wyvern earring. So going /drg gives you 1 jump every 1.5 minutes, 1 high jump every 3 minutes (both giving like 15 tp every 3 minutes, that's like going /war with saber dance), it also gives 10 attack, and then some more freedom in gear for another haste earring.

[mekaree]

Your brain must drip like an old hag with crotch rot if you can honestly say this with a straight face.

Since the proof of the pudding is in the eating:

Care of Kinematics~

Ech, code tags kinda messed up so here is a link to the specific post:

You can throw your statistics and your insults at me all you want. I've done extentive testing with both /nin and /sam on my dnc (with and without joyeuse) and /nin wins every time.

[BellBookandCandle]

You can throw your statistics and your insults at me all you want.

I will as long as you can keep posting your nonsensical bullshit opinions without any evidence. Also for the record I'm not some loopy die hard /SAM proponent, as I use /NIN a vast majority of the time, however the fact still stands that in terms of raw TP generating ability /SAM trumps everything else.

[Requim]

It all depends on what you're doing.

For normal situations like low manning, merits, etc I don't think anyone can really argue /nin since your damage is decent and there's a good chance you'll be avoiding damage with shadows, plus the ability to off hand joy while being able to land steps more accurately or use a real WS. You don't need to really consider raw tp abilities since there are many other factors than just getting tp.

Subbing sam or drg would give dnc more tp potential so if you're in a situation where you're not worried about anything other than that, prolly a bunch of end game stuff that I am spacing on, then sure /sam or /drg.

It's a situational sub. Get over it and use it when appropriate.