[Saxonian]

Lolagana. Sup hoe<3

[Deo2]

Just to point out, Party jobs do not increase subjob:corsair's phantom rolls and the bonus is cut in half. Similar to how subjob:bard songs are at half strength without the additional instrument skill to complement singing.

But, I agree. /Cor is better than /Brd by alot. Singing for 8-10 seconds can be very painful when you need a quick waltz. Also a 5 minute roll sounds less restrictive than a 2 minute song.

Also, singing ballad 1 on backrow while keeping a melee song on yourself&frontline is a greater hassle than just staying in one spot and spamming the same roll whenever it wears off.

[NinjaGorge]

From the results of Corsair Roll and Chaos Roll, seems /cor is only at 50% power but /cor can still be useful sub for a lot of jobs and especially early level.

1 +10
2 +13
3 ++15
4 (Lucky) +40
5 +18
6 +20
7 +25
8 (Unlucky) +5
9 +27
10 +30
11 +50
12+ (Bust) -5

Assuming the numbers on FFXIclopedia are correct - with Hunter's Roll(for example, as a subjob), you can(often) get at least +10-15 accuracy(unless you land on the unlucky number) and that can be really useful.

Edit: Meant +10-15 accuracy since /cor dice are only at half power.

Anyway +10-15 accuracy isn't bad, it's +5 to +7.5% hit rate(2 accuracy = 1 hit rate according to ffxiclopedia).

[Arian/Armel]

Lower levels, I agree with. Merits not so much, seeing as how you can gear yourself well by then.

Edit: And assuming that most parties have a BRD and/or COR at that level.

[Agana]

It doesn't make a difference what level really... If you're A strength, and you add another dagger, you'll be A + 10% haste. This is what the SJ gives itself.

If you're cor sub, you're A strength + the 13-20% Attack boost in rolls, plus everyone in your party is +13-20%. As a job with very low attack, DNC will benefit in terms of damage for it (the whole party will too), at not very much TP loss. The party will kill "that" much faster, they will take less damage as a result, so you won't need to heal as much.

[Treize Kordero]

I kinda like the idea of DNC/COR from the sounds of it.. it puts us in a more supportive role

I think I might experiment with this next time I do campaign and next time I get the chance to go DNC during an endgame event

[Cbarra]

Ok, so, /COR or /BRD are never really the worst things you can do, but srsly, trying to discredit /NIN with one fucking Chaos Roll?

If you wanna get picky about why exactly /COR or /BRD or something would be a nice sub for DNC, well, why don't you just ask yourself how a BRD or COR wouldn't just be better. COR is invited to meripo for much more than just one silly roll. They offer quick multiple pulls with a self reliant sleep method that doesn't get casted back on the first person to pull hate, they DD about 60% capacity (If geared well and stuff) of a good DD AND they offer a myriad of the obvious, which are rolls. Also Random Deal is pretty win when it works.

Now here is the killshot.

As I stray back on topic, it shouldn't be that hard to just accept that DNC/NIN pretty much will outclass most any other sub in meripo.

/NIN gives a 10% reduction in delay right off the bat. If you have Suppa, that makes it 15%~. If you use the new Mirke Wardecors that's 18%~. Now, assuming the DNC in question cares to be decent at WS' and has a gear swap for it, they can easily do 1k a shot with a decently geared DNC. Add in the fact that the WS you should use gives a Feint like effect, and that is basically your Hunter's roll right there. Couple all of this with the fact that the ACC of Joytoy becomes less of an issue and you can get more hits, more tp, and use more WS at a faster rate and it's really not that hard to see why it's basically superior.

/COR and /BRD have their uses, but trying so hard to justify such a random subjob, especially for DNC, with something so little as posting the % of ATK increase from Chaos Roll off of Wiki and Saying "Noob, I win, noob, noob, etc." really isn't sufficient reason to attempt to flame someone for doing something that is tried and true, and will likely outperform overall.

Also, Do not talk shit on Dagger(Azoth)/Joytoy, because even without merits, a Suppa, a pizza and Pyrrhic Kleos remedies the problem.

Edit: Get a BRD, get a COR, eat a Pizza.

[Carynaira]

Thanks for bumping this.

[Zareth]

/NIN gives a 10% reduction in delay right off the bat. If you have Suppa, that makes it 15%~. If you use the new Mirke Wardecors that's 18%~. Now, assuming the DNC in question cares to be decent at WS' and has a gear swap for it, they can easily do 1k a shot with a decently geared DNC. Add in the fact that the WS you should use gives a Feint like effect, and that is basically your Hunter's roll right there. Couple all of this with the fact that the ACC of Joytoy becomes less of an issue and you can get more hits, more tp, and use more WS at a faster rate and it's really not that hard to see why it's basically superior.

/NIN lowers delay, which in turn affects TP gain.

The only legitimate benefit for /NIN is utsusemi, and on rare occasions your off-hand weapon.

If you want to gain TP faster, then you either need to use /war (double attack) /sam (stp) or /drg (haste+5% earring and jumps).

/NIN will not significantly increase your TP gain in any way, barring the utility of an offhand like joyeuse.

Which may or may not be a good idea depending on camp/food/set-up.

ITT: Shit's still situational. Like it has been for years. Way to necrobump.

[Rockon]

Except for the fact that DW doesn't reduce the same tp/hit as it does delay.

[Cbarra]

As late as this is...

First off... It's been tested and the Dual wield, with just Rajas and Brutal will not hurt tp gain to a factor to take you away from 20 swings. Also, what the fuck is one more hit if it comes 15% faster, and that's not including 3% from Mirke.

/WAR Get Saber Dance even 1/5% (at the very least, up until the end, it's 10%) and wear a Brutal. Srsly.

/DRG 5% Haste and the jumps won't beat the Atk speed increase from a potential 15-18% from Dual Wield.

/SAM is just so fucking hard to make work... The Store TP you need to wear to put you into a different tier to even make it matter is ridiculous. I'm not gonna run around in 4/5 Cobra at 75 for 2-3 more tp a swing when I can just get 15% faster atks and a 45% chance to DA offhand not including Saber Dance or Brutal. Meditate just loses almost all of it's "Clinch" factor because of the No foot rise option, and how will it help you save someone in a hurry when you have to wait 6 seconds for the ticks only to realize it's still a bit short of what Curing Waltz IVs cost.

/NIN basically just wins all around. It gives a ridiculously larger amount of survivability, increases Subtle Blow, increases ATK speed greatly, and provides the oppurtunity for Joy-toy, which, if used well can make a huge difference. Also, /NIN increases DEX better than most other job options and STR still sits nicely too.

While you can argue that in EXTREME situations /SAM for pre-tping, or DRG for almost the same reasons, or even /WAR if you REALLY wanna try to push DD further with Berserk, in the end, it won't be anything more than a difference that is basically negligible in respect to what /NIN offers overall. The difference between it all, is that those are indeed situational, just like you said. However, /NIN is not, it is the sub that a smart player will always sub unless a rare specificity is needed.

Lastly, I'm not gonna press the issue too much, but the necro-bump thing? Srsly? Everything on these fucking boards are necrobumps at this point.

[Maggote]

/NIN basically just wins all around. It gives a ridiculously larger amount of survivability, increases Subtle Blow, increases ATK greatly, and provides the oppurtunity for Joy-toy, which, if used well can make a huge difference. Also, /NIN increases DEX better than most other job options and STR still sits nicely too.

wat

[Rockon]

Technically it doesn't add subtle blow, but it does reduce tp given per hit due to the nature of dual wield.

[Banggugyangu]

This will sound bazaar, I know... but I have personally found /SAM to be much more beneficial for soloing in campaign. I have no idea why, as it really doesn't make any sense to me, but I just have a MUCH easier time soloing the normal mobs with /SAM than /NIN.

For meripo/exp, I can't see any sub topping everything /NIN has to offer honestly. Saber Dance + dual wield daggers equates to nearly constant attacks for the first couple minutes. With the right combination of gear, attack isn't really much of an issue. TP gain is pretty redonk w/ the constant attacks situation. No foot rise + saber dance at the beginning of the PT ensures that you have a plentiful supply of TP at the beginning even if you're the only healer. /SAM with the right gear, I suppose could maybe trump NIN in raw TP gain, but it would at least give it a harsh run for the money. /WAR would still offer a large attack boost if you're DDing, but I don't see the DoT increasing much over /NIN given that you're geared right. Not to mention, if need be, you can pop animated flourish and easily be one of the most survivable tanks in the PT should anything call for it.

[Vicious0093]

Is this thread still true 6+ months later? LolDNC?

Edit: I ask because a friend and I are coming back to XI and he's interested in DNC.

[Carynaira]

He better not be a shithole DNC like most of them are.

[Prothescar]

Just don't claim that you can outdamage a THF.