[Treize Kordero]

I've seen some debates about DNC/MNK at higher levels but nothing too detailed. First I want to know if anyone has tried this at 75 and/or in a merit setting?
I've played with it in campaign and it seemed pretty good. ACC wasn't really a problem but that's campaign.. and the damage was alot more noticable than with daggers. I'm not gonna lie there's some draw backs i've noticed compared to using daggers.

Basically this is really for fun and excitement lol alternate way of doing things in situations where we have the room to play around and experiment.

I'm hoping this discussion can be used to exchange ideas and see what the DNC community can come up. Providing if anyone is interested since using /MNK would be to enhance our ability with h2h weapons which is a D skill for us... C- ish if you got 6-8 h2h merits.

So please share your thoughts and experiences weather they are good or bad.. also actual experience I think would be more beneficial than justy speculation.. because I wasn't really for this until I actually tried it and saw a bit of it's potential.

[Agana]

i wanted to try it for 60 cap ballista, but nobody does ballista anymore

the tradeoff would be a bit more damage, from higher base damage, but a lot less accuracy. So I guess if you can afford the accuracy hit then go for it.

[pathwriter]

I'd question this. As /Monk, you only have access to Martial Arts III (base Delay of 360). You've got a decent weaponskill at your disposal in Raging Fists, but you'll be attacking a bit slower and missing more often. Accuracy is not a huge issue in Campaign, but in more serious situations, it'd be a nasty hit. I can't see this being very impressive, you get more per-hit damage but you're likely to be attacking slower (compared either to single-wield or dual-wield, especially with Suppanomimi). I love Monk, but it's a rather limited support job.

[Treize Kordero]

Yeah I know exactly what you are saying Pathwriter. Same things I realized when playing around with this.

From what I gather it seems like using h2h with /MNK is gaining better DPS at the cost of ACC and TP generation speed. Some of that ACC lost can be reduced with ACC gear and merits into H2H and closed position.

Raging fists is a decent WS compared to Dancing Edge I would have to say RF doesn't really hold up against DE on DNC. So far the highest RF I've done was 636 dmg without BF and I had Saber Dance up. A bit off topic I also noticed Saber Dance's DA go off during WSes as well which is good since it ups the damage on WSes DNC's use. Right now I don't really expect anything big from this I just want to explore the potential of this and share my findings with others.

All i got right now is just crap I've been playing around but I plan to Parse it and even compare it against a PUP since the H2H ratings are similar and with /MNK we get the same amount of Martial ARTS traits as they do.

Another draw back about this can't use as much Haste gear as you can with dagger.. so far in campaign I'm at 12% haste (Turban, Rapparee, Dusk Hands) and I have no trouble but again THAT's CAMPAIGN.. really need to get some data while in a meripo. Only way I can see making up the speed hit would be using haste gear with acc and getting that wrestler's mantle which is pretty rare since no one really does that BCNM.

[Arian/Armel]

Using H2H on higher things would take more of a hit than Sword. Sword makes up for that with its speed, well and Suppa (which pretty much also increases speed lol). The only reason offhanding sword is more beneficial than H2H, is because it allows you to main hand a dagger, while also being able to attack faster without having to sacrifice a lot of gear slots for accuracy.

But, I'm all for numbers on it, you have 8/8 H2H I assume?

[Seibar]

i do have 7/8 h2h, but also 8/8 dagger w/love torque^^

i went /mnk til like 30, then switched to /war or /nin. through mid levels it would work fine, i know a fellow ls dnc used /mnk well into 50s or higher for most parties. you sacrifice accuracy with a lower skill weapon, and while dnc doesnt have a A+ weapon, but a B+ dagger seems a lot better then a D h2h for most things. sword is D as well, and i use joytoy so i guess the accuracy wouldnt be a huge issue, but im still maining a B+ when i use joy.
at 73 you can use destroyers though, and you gotta love destroyers!
with a black belt mnk i just cant stand using h2h on any other job, its too damn slow

[shinjaku]

Yeah I know exactly what you are saying Pathwriter. Same things I realized when playing around with this.

From what I gather it seems like using h2h with /MNK is gaining better DPS at the cost of ACC and TP generation speed. Some of that ACC lost can be reduced with ACC gear and merits into H2H and closed position.

Raging fists is a decent WS compared to Dancing Edge I would have to say RF doesn't really hold up against DE on DNC. So far the highest RF I've done was 636 dmg without BF and I had Saber Dance up. A bit off topic I also noticed Saber Dance's DA go off during WSes as well which is good since it ups the damage on WSes DNC's use. Right now I don't really expect anything big from this I just want to explore the potential of this and share my findings with others.

All i got right now is just crap I've been playing around but I plan to Parse it and even compare it against a PUP since the H2H ratings are similar and with /MNK we get the same amount of Martial ARTS traits as they do.

Another draw back about this can't use as much Haste gear as you can with dagger.. so far in campaign I'm at 12% haste (Turban, Rapparee, Dusk Hands) and I have no trouble but again THAT's CAMPAIGN.. really need to get some data while in a meripo. Only way I can see making up the speed hit would be using haste gear with acc and getting that wrestler's mantle which is pretty rare since no one really does that BCNM.

1. MA is hth delay reduction.
Its same for pup so I cant cry like if they have 1 more than me, by the path....so does PUP MA 3 wise Not that bad really.

2. DNC haste samba reduces weapon delay, aka a added boost to reducing hth like MA.
Question is how much really is it then?
Go haste gear if you want you already get weapon haste to begin with n chance at extra 5%, the answer is better shown when 10% known on dnc/mnk MA reduction.

3. 10% haste samba is way better than 5% haste.
How much hth reduction do you really get with haste samba 10%?
I feel the difference with wrestlers mantle but still going str/atk build is so niiiiice. Will see if i can match he dnc npcs in campaign battle speed wise when I get 10%

4. Destroyers is best HTH weapon for DNC (delay wise)
As far as atking slower than other weapons, well all can say is "apples to oranges".
What!!!!! You expect hth to be same speed as dagger or sword?
Its like wishing MNK can do serious spike dmg like drks do.
Get 10% haste samba first and then lets try this point again
Everytime I hear dual weild it always without a fault follows with safety (blink) and the dual weild (daggers) weapon rating and ACC excuse.
Did not mention weapon delay excuse cause thats a "no brainer". HTH + 10% haste + saber dance is awesome.
Only thing that /mnk sucks bad at is chakra, its ok....but could have been better. Its there so deal with it or dont ever use it, its not like that lackluster hp regained is gonna really save you :)Rather use it to stall death till i get to healing waltz my butt.
By the way to counter suppa lovers we dnc/mnks have wrestlers mantle for extra 20 hth delay reduction too, as long as weapon haste is concerned destroyers: NUFF SAID

5. Building Flourish 5% crit + destroyers 6% crit is nice :
*Backhand blow chance of crit increases dmg multiplier TP wise. Nvr really tried it yet due to not getting enough points to merit it up.
*Crits is nice when you do use shoulder tackle, ine ince punch and backhand blow connects tho.

6. I dont see any ACC issues enough to make it a bad choice.
Post 60 your really start to like sushi.

7. Tp generation: Not an issue if your doing steps like your supposed to to begin with and using RF, thats hoping the dnc knows what RF is.

8. Even tho DNC hth and sword is rated same its still not the same damage cap.

9. If you going DNC/MNK you really should have hth merits and destroyers to validate using it to begin with.
Cestus is nice and even better with faith torque if you can get your hands on that. I prefer it over potent belt since that does not improve my hth skills.
Will test out wrestlers mantle when I get 10% haste done, but so far at 8%. Even now dont need mantle due to fast tp generations to begin with.
I ws almost back to back now and with NFR 3/5 and 10% haste it will be just fine. My version of meditate.

[Requim]

Bah...wall of text.

Comparing to PUP is a bit of a weird choice. Remember that while the master has C H2H, the puppets have A-/A+ and make a considerable if not majority amount of the damage. So just because you're out damaging a PUP w/o puppet...doesn't necessarily say much.

So yeah, on the one hand, PUP has 225 instead of 210 skill, but DNC has accuracy bonus II and closed position, giving it 37(27 w/pup/dnc) acc more, but 15 less skill and 15(25 w/pup/war) attack less. You also only have RF, while PUP has Howling Fist and Stringing Pummel. There would be the effects of /mnk vs /war as well with focus vs berserk + DA.

My understanding of DNC gear is that you also have a lot easier access to DD gear. Rap, turban,swift, and dusk x 2 can get you an easy peasy 18% whereas PUP has to get a lot harder gear to get that much. The trend seems similar with the rest of the slots since almost all the good DD PUP gear can be worn by DNC save for Usu. So basically with any slot you can match or do better.

So as far as comparing to the master, you would probably be about the same as a well equipped PUP. The time spent using dancy things would be about a bit more than maneuvers, but probably not that much more. Also, I am confused on what daggers you'ld be using that would make these so much faster than H2H? Unsure what the ideal combo for dnc is but Azoth/Joy is 361 with suppa compared to 389 of destroyer's with wrestler's mantle. Not that large of a difference in delay, but more so the that you have a dagger main hand and a 45% DA off hand.

I just don't see the viability of H2H on DNC though. You're sacrificing a lot to use it when you could just gain 46 more skill by using a dagger. Is dagger dot really that bad to try to get shoddy H2H dot? I've never used dagger in a merit, but PUP's H2H is pretty mediocre at best (since its damage is split with the A skilled puppet). My understanding of dagger might just be poor, but I still think you would see higher returns on damage and tp gain from using a dagger main hand than trying dnc/mnk.

Meriting DNC don't you main heal and support the parties? What sort of setups are you going in? Cause if you were main healing before, after trying to become a lackluster DD you'ld probably end of having to get a rdm/whm/sch to main heal and then you're just taking up a spot that could be a full on support or a classic DD job right? I've yet to merit with a DNC so don't really know their role in merits, but I thought they would replace the rdm in the healing x 2 support x 3 DD setups. If this is inaccurate please correct me, but it just seems like an effort that would be trumped by a job change.

If there's any properly geared dancers on Seraph that would like to get parse results against a PUP, I'ld be more than happy to participate.

Edit: Just was reading up on DNC in merits...and it seems like SoL. Maybe the added damage from /MNK could help negate the loss of a 4th DD in a RDM/BRD/DNC/DDx3 party, but it doesn't seem like DNC has much of a shot with kill speeds so low. I guess it would be better than going dagger and doing less damage, but still seems like you'ld be better off switching jobs. My knowledge of DNC is still pretty foggy for merits, but DNC/MNK to succeed more than dagger DNC requires a bunch of effort to be able to seriously contend...effort that would be indicative of having another more useful job to do it as. I guess if you really wanna give it a shot feel free, but it seems like a sunk effort for an already struggling merit job. I'ld still like to see the results though

[Treize Kordero]

Arian/Armel - Right now I have 6/8 H2H merits.

Requim
I should mention my comparison to PUP is more like a guideline or a basis in which to work from. Even without the Puppet the Master can do some pretty decent damage with the gear PUP can use currently. Overall I don't think DNC can outdo a PUP with his puppet but since their H2H rating are closer together than compared to a MNK I feel that this is the standard in which to reach before considering this viable. I see potential in this and it may just turn out to be a situational thing. But before I go and say this is absolute shit, I feel it deserves from investigation.

I know SE before has done weird shit, Giving jobs gear that doesn't necessarily support it's role in the grand scheme of things.. HELL they have given a number of jobs gear that take the job away from it's primary function. So it just makes you wonder what were they thinking in DNC's case? is there a gem to be found or is this all one big joke? DNC's get one of the best H2H weapons in the game... granted that could mean fuck-all but it's still something to consider. On top of that we get ACC out the ass like we get so much ACC we could slap the ass on a Mamool Ja Lurker. Acc. Bonus 2, loads of ACC gear, Closed Position. The ACC issue with H2H is a sizable amount but it can be negated yes at the sacrifice of other types of gear like Haste gear but it can be negated and the higher base damage will help towars the loss of att from the difference in skill.

My apologizes everyone right now this is all theorycraft and speculation it's coming to the point where numbers have to be produce so that the "jury" can see for themsevles how good or bad this would be. If anyone uses FFXIcalc you can run some numbers for accuracy and delay to get a feel of how large the differences are and to see if what you see is enough to peak your curiousity.

Also to answer your question Requim, I don't play DNC as a main healer. I keep to the boundaries of being a supporter. Right now I believe there's 2 types of supporters a DNC could be.
Healing Supporter - A DNC who is more focused on reducing the burden of the healing responsibilities placed on the main healer through doing waltzes and using drain samba.
Damage Supporter - A DNC who is more focused on helping the main DD's do more damage by adding it's own bit of damage while maintaining steps and haste hambe to give the main DD's as much of an edge over the enemy as they can. Consistency of steps and samba also take priority over damage dealing. Also bulk of a DNC's DD comes from spamming of WSes when appropriate.

In both roles DNCs should always use steps to enfeeble the enemy but I have noticed that most DNCs who take up a healing role don't really care which steps they use just as long as they get the FM to convert into TP through RF. I feel in a Damage supporting role a DNC should be more sensitive on what eenfeebles they use on a mob.

So that's how I play DNC

Sorry for Wall-o-Text... before I end off this post I just want to say the potential I see for DNC/MNK is for the use of meripo I dont really see this being useful on HNMs.. even though I could be wrong. I mainly see this as being more beneficial to DNC's in a meripo setup. I think the increase of DoT through H2H would help add to the kill speed and help reduce TP feeding if that's considered an issue anyway,

Also it would be a nice alternative

[shinjaku]

Requim
Meriting DNC don't you main heal and support the parties? What sort of setups are you going in? Cause if you were main healing before, after trying to become a lackluster DD you'ld probably end of having to get a rdm/whm/sch to main heal and then you're just taking up a spot that could be a full on support or a classic DD job right? I've yet to merit with a DNC so don't really know their role in merits, but I thought they would replace the rdm in the healing x 2 support x 3 DD setups. If this is inaccurate please correct me, but it just seems like an effort that would be trumped by a job change.

Dude the only thing being compared between DNC n PUP is MA.....and its the same when you use /MNK.
You mention other weapon skills Pup has forgetting that have access to all those WS dont mean squat since you can only use just 1 when you hit 100tp

Its wrong to think DNC is a main healer since thats a common misconception, we are support only, others try to make us main healers.....but lets be real here DNC is not a a dedicated main healer).

I never played my DNC as main healer before (so where you got this idea is nothing but a misconception), trust me dnc was always borderline between dd/semi-healer. If you did not figure it out back when it came out not so long ago the group 2 merits should atleast wake you up.

Requim
I just don't see the viability of H2H on DNC though. You're sacrificing a lot to use it when you could just gain 46 more skill by using a dagger. Is dagger dot really that bad to try to get shoddy H2H dot? I've never used dagger in a merit, but PUP's H2H is pretty mediocre at best (since its damage is split with the A skilled puppet). My understanding of dagger might just be poor, but I still think you would see higher returns on damage and tp gain from using a dagger main hand than trying dnc/mnk.

Not making fun of you at all so dont take offense, since you admitted not knowing much bout dagger........dont you think maybe, just maybe you dont know much bout hth too?
Case in point DNC/MNK can use Destroyers, best weapon for it (guess what? PUPs cant use it. Plus its got nice stats and sweet low delay, add that with haste samba 10% becomes total different story. Pups get "Scogan's Knuckles", I like my destroyers (thankyouverymuch). PUPs only get closer to our delay shy of 1 point when they get "Inferno Claws" and even then destroyers wins with +3 weapon dmg and crits 6% over pups
We dont have bots but make up for it using saber dnc.

Have you seen the damage dot on dagger? I like hth and have hth merits and I like it (call it preference).

You seen DA procs on hth? Saber dance + brutal even on the last min to recast still ends up at 15% proc. Guess what thats DD truth right there for you bout DNC potential.

Nothing wrong with dagger if you want it but dont even compare the 2 weapons and to spice things up in your favor throw in /nin, you cant dual wield hth (nuff said).

Those that choose to go DNC/NIN have great reasons to do that and the benefits are nice if you think thats the only way.

Requim
Edit: Just was reading up on DNC in merits...and it seems like SoL. Maybe the added damage from /MNK could help negate the loss of a 4th DD in a RDM/BRD/DNC/DDx3 party, but it doesn't seem like DNC has much of a shot with kill speeds so low. I guess it would be better than going dagger and doing less damage, but still seems like you'ld be better off switching jobs. My knowledge of DNC is still pretty foggy for merits, but DNC/MNK to succeed more than dagger DNC requires a bunch of effort to be able to seriously contend...effort that would be indicative of having another more useful job to do it as. I guess if you really wanna give it a shot feel free, but it seems like a sunk effort for an already struggling merit job. I'ld still like to see the results though biggrin.gif

Like you said again you have know idea bout this jobs group 2 merits, it aint geared towards main healing. Some might be able to pull it off but i wont even bother cause mines a dd dnc.

Saber dnc stacks with haste, so haste 10% + saber dnc = more dd potential, tp generation. Haste is shared among all dding but not the DA from saber dnc.
Fan dnc with waltz is for when shit hits the fan, then we can heal others, no haste but increased def. for when we get hate (which we always do fast).

NFR 3/5 merits = 3 Finishing moves, enough to start a fight with tp

Closed position = incresed ACC and EVA.

Requim
You also only have RF, while PUP has Howling Fist and Stringing Pummel.

How you came about to compare a DNC lv40 "flourish 2" ability to PUP's hth weapons skill is weird.
You do know what steps are right? And that without them RF is nothing without it right? Better yet NFR gives us instant FM for RF now (depending on the amount we merit into it).

[Requim]

Question marks are actual questions!

Err, by RF meant Raging Fists (hence followed by two other WSs)...did not know about the confliction in abbreviations. There's a very sizable differences between the weaponskills, so it's worth pointing out. Would you say that your DNC/MNK's main damage is coming from dot or ws?

My main comparison to PUP was that you have a low skill rating in a skill dependent weapon. I have experience with how hard a PUP can hit for, and it's not very much compared to other DD jobs. So swing for swing, I don't see DNC hitting much harder than PUP since DNC still is pretty limited in the choices for attack gear right? So if you're punching for pretty low numbers, punching more often still isn't going to make a large difference. You're still punching a lot less than a MNK and KA would probably proc near the same as SD's DA over the total duration wouldn't it?

At the moment you've managed to convey that DNC can attack really fast and fairly accurately, but it still is suffering in low skill and attack. You're still going to be punching slower than you would with daggers having given up haste gear for acc/atk? MNK gives you boost, focus, and wrestler's mantle (at the cost of another 15-18 atk).

Whether or not DNC can DD is something I haven't seen, but it also seems like you would be sacrificing 46 atk/acc for a weapon change. Especially since you would be losing out on piercing bonus vs birds. I don't doubt that if someone invested enough effort into it it could indeed work though.

I apologize for the stereotyping DNC into a healing job. I've yet to merit with a DNC and never seen any DNC that could DD effectively. Also just got back from a break, so this is my first time really reading up on cat 2 merits xD Just a question though, are you arguing on how to make /MNK work or that it would be superior to daggers Shin?

[Juib]

greater dmg per hit =/= greater DPS >.>

[Requim]

If you have a ton more accuracy and attack swinging faster on top of receiving a piercing damage bonus is that really not going to outweigh the difference in base damage 10? You're not going to be hitting for full damage on your H2H hits with that low of attack, so that essentially negates the base damage? And wouldn't more damage per hit on a faster weapon equate to more DPS? Obviously damage per swing isn't the same as damage per second, but when you're swinging faster for more damage per hit doesn't that mean better DPS in either sense?

Again, unsure how dependent DD DNC is on ws vs dot so unsure how it would exactly pan out.

[shinjaku]

Requim
Just a question though, are you arguing on how to make /MNK work or that it would be superior to daggers Shin?

I believe the topic of this thread is "DNC/MNK Discussion".

Do you want to ask that question again or do you now understand it? I really is not that difficult to begin with.

This a dnc/mnk thread and yet you have turned it into a dagger vs hth and ACC/ATK debate.

Not only do you compare apples to oranges but your also trying to compare 2 different elements and playstyles, its not the same thing nor do they follow the same rules.

Statistical assumption here is simple, both weapons are not the same and should not be compared (AKA Dagger Hth).

DNC/MNK gets 3 ACC bonuses ---PUPs get non. Bad choice I know but I have to compare the 2 jobs that can use Knuckles.

Both have 3 EVA bonuses, but guess who wins here with merits? DNC gets another +15 ACC and EVA.

Destroyers are the best knuckles in this game for DNC, even tho PUPs get their own they still lacking behind by 1 point (not much but look at the weapon dmg difference/weapon stats and the fact that DNC has saber dnc makes it way better. PUPs need to get their relic weapon to even get close to a normal geared destroyer DNC/MNK to even get close for comfort, and even then they still behind. Scogans have +96 delay----Destroyers are +48......No brainer here.

So what if DNC hth caps at 210 "D" rated and PUPs at 225 "C" rated, they need to do alot to even get close and that "Letter" rating between the 2 jobs mean nothing.

Requim
If you have a ton more accuracy and attack swinging faster on top of receiving a piercing damage bonus is that really not going to outweigh the difference in base damage 10? You're not going to be hitting for full damage on your H2H hits with that low of attack, so that essentially negates the base damage? And wouldn't more damage per hit on a faster weapon equate to more DPS? Obviously damage per swing isn't the same as damage per second, but when you're swinging faster for more damage per hit doesn't that mean better DPS in either sense?

You are assuming things that are not fact again and resort to more speculation (not a good way to make your point).

Requim
My main comparison to PUP was that you have a low skill rating in a skill dependent weapon. I have experience with how hard a PUP can hit for, and it's not very much compared to other DD jobs. So swing for swing, I don't see DNC hitting much harder than PUP since DNC still is pretty limited in the choices for attack gear right? So if you're punching for pretty low numbers, punching more often still isn't going to make a large difference.

Sorry but using "skill rating" as an excuse to say DNC would not fair better is a wrong approach, and why are you comparing a job that does not have the same thing with other jobs that do? "Apples to Oranges".

Have you seen Etoile's Attire summary? Atk +22
Or the +1 version? ATK +26 (DNC and PUP get same from "AF" ATK +5, and thats where it ends. AF+1 adds +15 ATK).
Do you see where DNC edge out on your PUP now?

Pantin's Attire Set Summary? ATK +5
Or the +1 version? Atk +5 (still yet again, nothings changed in the ATK from PUP's gear from AF to Relic).

So back to your 1st question?

Requim
that it would be superior to daggers Shin

Its Dagger not Daggers.
Have you seen the dot on dagger?
How bout the dot on hth?
Look at dmg per atk round and answer that question for yourself, when you bring in dual wield daggers your not in same boat anymore (you cant dual wield knuckles lol).

Just dont forget about "Apples to Oranges"

Dont bring in the Skill rating excuse cause it wont fly, want to know why? Destroyers dmg is still the same on DNC if it A or D rating.

Requim
You're still punching a lot less than a MNK and KA would probably proc near the same as SD's DA over the total duration wouldn't it?

MA1 drops hth base from 480 to 400 (instantly). Add DNC 10% haste = 40 delay off (give or take) . Now with 2nd and 3rd trait brings DNC down to 320 (thats MA 5) which MNK gets at LV61.

Its rough math, but yesterday in campaign battle I noticed I almost matched a lv73 destroyer mnk/nin in ATK speed punching a fortification (thats as long as haste was up only). I only had 9% haste at the time, so I can say we pretty fast.


MNK gets 6 MA --- DNC/MNK gets 3. Please dont go there and compare the 2 that are not remotely the same.

MNK gets 2 KA --- DNC "NON". Why you even went there is a mystery. By the way KA is not DA, if MNKs want DA they get brutal and/or go /WAR.

KA (Kick Atk) base rate give or take is what? 10%, SD (Saber Dance) is "Gives 50% double attack rate on first minute and appears to go down -10% every minute", thats give or take. I still dont see where in total 5 mins where "50-40-30-20-10% SD is less than same duration of KA 2. This is wihtout anything else to increse the abilities.

So please explain where you got this from, cause you got me there.

You do know the difference in MNK vs DNC hth is 66 and that in hth terms equals atk. So yeah we cant hit as hard as MNKs cause we dont have the same amout of atk or even come close.

Hope this clarifies DNC/MNK to you ^^

Remember: If you want to go Dagger or Daggers with /NIN by all means do so.

[Requim]

Huuuuuge wall of text Tried to explain the issues DNC/MNK would face with meriting, which the OP asked about

I apologize for the ambiguity of my posts. I’m not a DNC, I don’t know about endgame DNC, but I felt that my experience with PUP could help the severe lack of info and data on D/M (DNC/MNK) in merits. My focus was on D/M in merits, not campaign. The differences in skill, acc/atk, etc are much more evident against merit mobs than campaign, so mentioning those are very applicable for merits. My main mentioning for PUP is that PUPs H2H is comparable to D/M and that you could look at how PUPs have tried to maximize their melee, which there is a lot more info on PUP melee than there is on D/M H2H. I am not saying that the two are the same, but that the attack rating and base damage are comparable enough that you could easily adjust for differences in crit/haste/DA w/e else (compared to having to get a whole bunch of new parse data).

To answer the OPs question about meriting D/M I think you need to look at the typical DNC setup in merits, which you would know much more than I do. If you’re going to go from a B+ weapon to a D weapon you’re going to have to sacrifice something, to ignore that is foolish. I am not saying you should use dagger over H2H or vice versa, but I asked how they would compare. Not only the acc/atk dif, you are going to be using a weapon that’s base damage is skill dependent based off H2H*0.11+3+wep’s base damage. So to quote you,

Dont bring in the Skill rating excuse cause it wont fly, want to know why? Destroyers dmg is still the same on DNC if it A or D rating.

That is 100% inaccurate. You have about the same base damage and delay as a PUP, so I mentioned PUP, but D/M is about 5 base damage below a MNK.

Shin, I asked you about why you were posting because I wanted to know why you were so defensive and aggressive with your posts. To rephrase my question to you, Shin (I did not ask the OP or the thread) are you responding with how to make /MNK the best it could be or how it would compare to the typical DNC in merits? You keep talking about how I compare two very different things, but I guess you fail to understand why I mention them. So I will respond to each of yours points:
1. I mention acc/atk because I wanted to know how D/M compared to the typical setup. I asked, I did not state.
2. I mention the skill between PUP and DNC because I felt they could be compared a lot easier than DNC to MNK, not that PUP was superior for having 15 higher skill.

So what if DNC hth caps at 210 "D" rated and PUPs at 225 "C" rated, they need to do alot to even get close and that "Letter" rating between the 2 jobs mean nothing.

My point exactly, that the difference is minimal and makes for much easier comparison.
3. I asked about the difference between dagger and H2H because I wanted to know, not that I was making a point. I referenced the attack speed, accuracy, damage, bonuses, etc because I wanted to know how the two compared. Don’t quote me like I was saying dagger was better than H2H for DNC because I was asking that question, which you conveniently failed to include the question mark in your quote.
4. “Apples to Oranges” comparison of PUP and D/M is based on skill. You can get an estimate for how hard you punch with each attack. Factor in crit chances, double attacking, delays, etc are all based on how hard you hit. Unless you have pages and pages of parse data like the PUPs forums do, then having some sort of foundation helps a lot when figuring out how the potential of D/M melee in merits.
5. Your inaccurate quoting attire summaries makes me laugh. When the do you wear any full set? Also, if you’re quoting summaries, quote the right stats. PUP AF2 set gives 20 attack, not 5. In fact, why not compare the gear options? From as far as I’ve seen PUP and D/M (that is DNC using H2H) share a ton of gear and ~same skill, so if you’re comparing the two’s melee you would only need to adjust for job traits and job abilities.
Weapon: DNC would use Destroyers, PUP uses Hades (+1) 18/51 7(9)acc/eva or Wagh (18/60 5ac 14atk <100TP)
Ammo: Tiphia Sting & Black Tathlum are both DNC and PUP, though PUPs use Turbo Ani or Ani +1 for 2/4 dex with puppet out
Head: O-hat, Pahluwan hat, enkidu and turban seem like the main tp hats, usable by both PUP and DNC. DNC AF2 is a nice WS hat, but PUP has Usu, and both can use Maat’s and some other WS hats.
Neck: Faith torque, PCC, chiv chain, sea torques…all the same
Ears: Brutal earring, ethereal, merman’s…all the same
Body: much harder comparison because DNC has its AF2 and assault jerkin as options, but PUP has Usu and then the rest of the gear like SH, Pahluwan, Rap Harness/Goliard all give the roughly same stats
Hands: Dusk is superior to PUP AF2 by 5atk, but enkidu is the same. Usu & Goliard vs Denali are more up in the air
Rings: Ulth, Rajas, sniper’s (+1)…all the same
Back: Amemet/Cerb/Forager’s all compare to Pantin Cape (5dex 15atk master/puppet), DNC has some other acc options, but in tp it would be using wrestler’s and thus Pantin cape kinda nullifies your attack bonus of Etoile’s body.
Waist: Speed belt if you have it or possibly Warwolf for WS otherwise same swift/potent combo
Legs: DNC AF2 is basically an easier to get Barb Z’s, which PUP can use, but Usu beats both
Feet: Dusk is inferior to Enkidu, both DNC and PUP can use Enkdiu, PUP has AF+1 for 5str/acc compared to DNC AF2+1 for 4dex/5acc or Denali 3str/5acc though Usu is 7atk/acc 2% haste
So basically the gear options for PUP and DNC are pretty similar, the only difference is that DNC would have to worry about acc less and have more freedom in what they would equip. This lead me to conclude that the punch damage would be very similar (yes, yes Saber Dance makes you DA a ton, but you’re still punching for similar numbers unless I missed a ton of DNC attack gear). If I made any mistakes in the choice of DNC gear, please correct me, but I don’t see very much difference other than DNC being able to wear more haste gear without worrying as much about accuracy. Regardless DNC’s +37 acc with its 226 H2H won’t let it drop that much accuracy because even DDs with A skill merited weapons need to wear around 30+ if they’re not eating sushi.
6. Damage per round…I asked about this I did not make a statement. When quoting, don’t leave out the fact I was asking you this question. I did not know, I was not asking a rhetorical question, instead I pointed out all the factors I could see relevant and asked you your opinion. If I knew the numbers it would not have been a question. Also I meant daggers as in the weapon, not the skill, so it can be plural
7. DNC gets 360 delay as /MNK, + wrestler's mantle making it 340 + 48 from destroyers, add in the 10% from haste samba, which you say deducts another 40ish delay. I'm not sure if that is really fair to add in to DNC/MNK because that is one of the largest incentives to get a DNC in the first place and it is a party buff. As far as delay for meriting goes, you’ld be punching with how much haste (actual question!)? DNC can get about 21% in above average gear, but unsure if you would use ohat or af body if you were eating sushi. If you could, that would be 308 delay, if you couldn’t 342. To use your example of comparing D/M attack speed to a MNK, in merits they are often at 25% so roughly 262 delay. Both delays calculated without haste samba because I am unsure how to find the delay reduction it gives and it would be given to both players in a merit situation.
8. I mentioned KA because I had mentioned Saber Dance before I removed it when I read more up on it (I confused the decrease with Fan Dance of per hit as opposed to minute). Mentioning DA & KA is relevant for how often you would punch compared to each other because while a MNK hits faster, DNC can gain attacks more often. 1/5 Saber Dance gives you 50/40/30/20/10 or averaged 30% DA and 5/5 gives you its 50/40/30 DA or 40% average rate, so it roughly has 35% or 45% DA over 3 or 5 minutes compared to a MNK that would have 15% KA & 5/15% DA. You had mentioned punching as often as a MNK so I was just offering the actual comparison in a merit situation.

My reason for posting was just to explain some of the problems that D/M would face and questioning how it would compare to the typical DNC setup. I still believe you could find a lot of useful info on it by looking on the PUP forums. Sorry for the wall of text, but thought I would do my best to clarify my reasoning and I fail at paraphrasing since last time I tried to paraphrase and it confused you.

[Requim]

Some more numbers I found: Greater Colibri have eva 334/339, so you need roughly 378/387 to get 85% accuracy.
A hume DNC/MNK at 75 has 69 dex and can get 226 H2H skill with merits. With acc traits and Closed Position, that puts it at 294.8 accuracy or 43.3%. With sole sushi you can get 67.2% acc and go up to 342. So if you're going to be eating sushi you would only need 40 more acc in gear. PCC, ulth, swift, black tathlum and rajas and enkidu boots put you up to 371/81.6%.

So if you're eating sole sushi with only 21 acc in gear with maxed H2H and Closed Position merits a DNC could get 81.6%, allowing to wear full haste gear, so a DNC/MNK could get to 308 delay pre-haste samba. Swapping out turban or rap harness could get you over 85% acc. Without sushi you'ld pretty much need to devote every gear slot to acc to break 80% w/o brd or cor so it seems that sushi would be a must for DNC/MNK.

[Nudecke]

I'd just like to point out that DNC, with destroyers, has a base damage of 40 per fist at a delay of roughly 204 per fist. Where as a PUP, with waghs, has a base damage of 41 per fist and a delay of roughly 210 per fist. Is 5 extra damage a hit worth 40 less accuracy and attack? Considering that 40 attack is equal to adding 7 more base damage means that a 35 damage weapon is doing the damage of a 42 weapon. So 40 damage per hit(h2h) vs 42 damage per hit(dagger)...dagger has less delay, does more damage per hit, has higher accuracy and better weaponskills.

Btw, daggers will have close to 170 delay because of dual wield. 42 damage at 170 delay or 40 damage at 204 delay, which is better dps? Daggers.

[BellBookandCandle]

You need 409 total ACC to cap on G.Colibri from what I gather.

[Requim]

It looks like you need ~404, so if you were trying to go for cap w/226 and sole sushi you would need near 90 acc to hit cap. Unsure how much haste you would want to sacrifice after getting at least 85% though.

Assuming Nudecke's 40atk:7dmg ratio, then this answers my earlier question. But it looks like the two are relatively similar with damage and delay so you could probably make H2H work in a merit situation.

[Treize Kordero]

I'd just like to point out that DNC, with destroyers, has a base damage of 40 per fist at a delay of roughly 204 per fist. Where as a PUP, with waghs, has a base damage of 41 per fist and a delay of roughly 210 per fist. Is 5 extra damage a hit worth 40 less accuracy and attack? Considering that 40 attack is equal to adding 7 more base damage means that a 35 damage weapon is doing the damage of a 42 weapon. So 40 damage per hit(h2h) vs 42 damage per hit(dagger)...dagger has less delay, does more damage per hit, has higher accuracy and better weaponskills.

Btw, daggers will have close to 170 delay because of dual wield. 42 damage at 170 delay or 40 damage at 204 delay, which is better dps? Daggers.

I see what you are saying with this but I have to ask to be more specific. Unfortunately DNC's can't have 35 DMG daggers in both hands.. Azoth is the highest DMG dagger we can use and it's Rare. The second best would be Ermine's Tail and Jambiya +1. So you'll be looking at one hand with a 35 DMG and 210 Delay and the offhand with 34 DMG and 194 Delay. Mathematically this is still better in turns of delay when using /NIN. but this 40 att roughly equal to 7 DMG? I dunno that seems farfetched to me

I wanna believe that but I'm gonna have to ask to see something more concrete before I accept 40 ATT roughly equal to 7 DMG. Dagger will always be DNC's best weapon but due to the Abilities and Traits DNC's have... I think H2H can prove to be effective as least in a merit setting.

Also to point out the accuracy hit from B+ to a D skill about 41 acc. (256 - 210) * 0.9 = 41.4 so that's the challenge really.. having enough acc to make up for the 41.4 acc hit + the difference in acc from your best skill and the mobs evasion, and not to mention the if the gain in base DMG will cover the 46 ATT hit as well...

I know for Mamool Lurkers their eva is 434. I was using that as a basis of comparsion.. kind of bad since it's so high but the way I saw it.. if you could hit a Mamool Lurker 25-40% of the time then you could hit a G.coli or a low eva merit mob a lot more often.