[Gnome_Underground]

im gonna give up on my monk to become a ninja(they are soooo cool). i was just wondering while tanking, what are some good methods of holding aggro. we dont have cures and what not like paladins, so if i cant keep the monster attacking me my ninjitsu will be useless. all advice is appreciated

[DoomPenguin]

heres some advice, sub war for voke, that way you can hold the aggro

[ske]

have a good thief in your party to trick attack on you (after level 30, though)

the problem with ninja tanks is that you need to lose hate to reapply utsusemi (therefore you can not have too much hate on you), and you'll have trouble regaining it. i choose paladin or even warrior over ninja as tank (war/whm isn't as bad as it sounds )

imo, the ability to control aggro makes a better tank than not taking damage.

[Gnome_Underground]

yea im gonna take warrior as my sub. and i know the thief will help. but ske thanks for coming in and flaming ninjas, appreciate it . well does casting ninjutsu like utsusemi: ni build hate?

[NovaLogic]

He wasn't flaming Ninja's he was stating the simple fact that with all the tools and abilities that Ninja/Warrior's have it's still very hard to keep hate in a lot of groups. I'm not being biased here but frankly having played as both a Paladin and a White Mage, I'd rather pump more MP into healing somebody with the idea that most likely the hate WILL NOT come off that person and on to more fragile group members, then pump little or no MP into the Ninja but just about as much if not more MP then I pumped into the Paladin or Warrior to keep the people that are getting stray blows healed. However Ninjitsu is good overall especially for enfeebling mobs and coordinating those enfeeblements with BLM's that can exploit the mobs new weakness.

And secondly, as far as I've seen from Ninja/Warrior's in parties Provoke is the only real thing that builds decent hate.

[Roori]

Enfeeble Ninjitsu! After you get Utsusemi: Ni you should be rarely getting hit and those enfeebles generate some pretty decent hate. After 40, you can also bring 2 different sets of powders for elemental ninjitsu. Those in conjunction with provoke every 30 sec and the stray hits to other group members will be few and far between. Also, use +% attack food and even berserk if you're confident with how the pulls are going.

The downside is that the cost of the debuff powders will be more than utsusemi. Compared to a PLD, a nin tank both gains and loses hate slower (they don't lose hate from getting hit since they seldom get hit). Casting utsusemi does generate hate but you should see considerably more hate from enfeebling. Think of each enfeeble as a mini-flash that costs gil to use.

[Dragonhope]

ske :
have a good thief in your party to trick attack on you (after level 30, though)

the problem with ninja tanks is that you need to lose hate to reapply utsusemi (therefore you can not have too much hate on you), and you'll have trouble regaining it. i choose paladin or even warrior over ninja as tank (war/whm isn't as bad as it sounds )

imo, the ability to control aggro makes a better tank than not taking damage.

If you have the skill to time the Utsusemi spells between hits, you don't need to lose hate. But then again, what would a WHM who needs to stay back and heal people know about having to time spells between hits? You did that what...at levels 1-10 only? Maybe until only 8 or 9? Or did you even bother to learn about that?

At my level, as a Thief/Warrior (no bias toward or against Ninjas or Paladins), I tend to look for both in terms of tanks. If I can't find a Paladin, I have no qualms what so ever about getting a Ninja for a tank. Any Ninja that's survived that far and has a WAR as their sub should have enough skill to hold hate for most of the time (with a few hits slipping to other party members). As for Paladins, some seem to think they have to save Shield Bash for something. Sure it stops a bomb if you're fighting Goblins 100% of the time (in which case feel free to save it), but otherwise they should be using it. Meaning a lot of Paladins still don't learn to control hate as much as Ninjas do at this level because they haven't had a reason to do so. A Ninja at this level can gain the hate back faster then a Paladin due to the skill of the player. Of course if the Paladin is also skilled, there'd be no hate loss at all (unless a WHM uses Benediction).

The only main difference between having a Ninja or Paladin in the party is one requires more strategy and skill to play then the other. Usually that's the Ninja since they don't have massive hate inducers such as Flash, Shield Bash, Cure III, Sentinel, etc.

Yes, the ability to control hate is more important then taking damage as Ske said. But a good Ninja is able to do that just as well as a Paladin can. Like Roori (as well as many others) have said, Ninja is an expensive job.

PS: Provoke doesn't hold hate as well as people seem to think. One Sneak Attack or a few good spells can easily shift the hate from Provoke before it's ready again.

[Blace]

haha yea

the timing is tough. from the casting ive found that if u get hit really early in the

casting or really late in it, it wont be interrupted. its that middle area u gotta be

careful of. another thing is that different mobs have different attack speeds. unfortunately

even if u have the timing perfect, it's near impossible with some (not all) mobs to get an

utsusemi cast off unles the mob misses you or you parry the attack. that's where the

ninja's evasion strength would become very useful especially for tanking. ninja's have to

be very smart with their gameplay, especialy when trying to keep the hate. it's tough for

ninja i'll have to agree, simply because of the lack of on-hand hate tools. a paladin could

go all out tanking, just doing the things that come as second nature because the abilities

are there for u to click. ninja has hardly any job abilities and a minimum selection of

spells for keeping hate and therefore makes it very hard. the war sub helps out immensely

tho if you're gonna be a ninja tank. you just have to play it right =)

[ske]

Dragonhope :
If you have the skill to time the Utsusemi spells between hits, you

don't need to lose hate. But then again, what would a WHM who needs to stay back and heal

people know about having to time spells between hits? You did that what...at levels 1-10

only? Maybe until only 8 or 9? Or did you even bother to learn about that?

You, sir, are the most arrogant bastard I've ever seen post. Of course I have never

taken a hit in my entire career, which I'm assuming you neither did.

I never have

to solo, not even for farming cause I can just snap my fingers to have the whole server come

and give me stuff.

I know nothing, I think I'd better go and play pacman instead.

[salty]

Blace, a

PLD can not all out tank without Provoke. Ninja's can still pull hate with debuff spells

and damage that PLD lacks. Both rely on Warrior's Provoke to tank.

[Blace]

[

b]salty :[/b]
Blace, a PLD can not all out tank without Provoke.

i believe

i said "a paladin COULD go all out tanking, just doing the things that come as second

nature because the abilities are there for u to click. " this is in consideration that war

IS the sub which in turn would make one of those job abilities Provoke. i should hope no

paladin is dumb enough to sub anytihng else but war for PT use...

salty :


Ninja's can still pull hate with debuff spells and damage that PLD lacks.

Flash - Temporarily blinds an enemy, greatly lowers its accuracy.
If that isnt one of

the biggest instant debuffs i have ever seen that pulls the most hate. True ninja has

debuffs and yes the hate can still be kept with that, i simply stated it is more difficult

to keep it, not impossible

[Anubia]

ninjitsu

is one of the only way i can see that u can really consistently keep hate. provoke will

work most of the time..but if u get a drk that uses sneak attack ur done... trick attack is

the only other way i can see

[Nohmaan]

WHat

we've done in the past if casting became an issue is just gravity the mob, then the ninja

steps away far enough to cast then runs back in.

God bless gravity.

[PlayingForFun]

don't forget that the :Ni Ninjutsu all have 2 second cast times which is half of the :Ichi

Ninjutsu, yes i do have trouble getting :Ichi off between attacks but cut that time in half

and it'll be jokingly easy. Also any ninja worth his salt can time Ichi to go off as the

last shadows gets munched

[Donatelo]

If you

know what you're doing as a ninja, and you have a competant thief to back you up, holding

hate will hardly ever be an issue.

Have the secondary provoker take the first

provoke at the start of the fight, then let the thief trick it back onto you. That's a

pretty basic and common strategy that will set you up at the beginning of battle to hold

hate for a while. Blink well using the Ni > Ni > Ichi > Ni formula (first Ni being cast as

the puller does his job), supplementing those casts with various debuffs/enfeebles as

necesarry.

After just doing this, sometimes our secondary voker has trouble pulling

it back off of me to start the skillchain. If he can't, its not really a problem because

by the time our chain & MB is over, the monster is usually dead, and if he -does- get it off

me, all the better, since our thief can do his trick/sneak WS behind me to solidify the

hate, just in case something odd or unexpected happens.

A lot of people like to say

that if you have a ninja tank, the BLM can't MB to full potential, but that isn't true.

On an ideal chain, we have two MB, the first coming after Distortion, the second coming

after Darkness, which results if I use Blade: Ten after Dancing Edge goes off. The combined

MB damage from the two effects is probably somewhere around the 1600-1900dmg mark on average

(more if we have a RDM instead of a Bard), and it's still a rare occasion when the monster

turns to chase after the mage (if it isn't already dead). Even so, all it takes is usually

one provoke to set it right back on me.

I just think holding hate requires a lot more

planning and precise execution as a ninja than it does as a paladin, but if you can master

it and pull it off well, the absence of wasted MP on constant heals means faster pull,

faster XP, faster leveling. Plus I think playing a ninja is way more fun than paladin. :

D

Well that's my two-cents. :wink

Edit: Provoke every 30 seconds of course,

unless your next provoke will make it impossible for the secondary voker to pull it onto him

to begin the SC.

[Lionhart]

salty :
Blace, a PLD can not all out tank without Provoke. Ninja's can still

pull hate with debuff spells and damage that PLD lacks. Both rely on Warrior's Provoke to

tank.

Sorry but I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. Without

defender on I hit 40-50 dmg a slash on IT mobs @LV70. With Defender I hit about 10-20 or so.

Whereas when NIN tank parties are near me NIN most commonly hits for two pretty 0s.

Sometimes they do a little damage but never more than myself (except when it comes to weapon

skills, But I'd imagine building TP is kinda hard when you have Blink on and hit 0s ).

This is just from my experience in LV70 parties. Maybe it's just coincidence but whenever

another PT calls for help near us I find the tank is always a NIN/WAR or WAR/NIN who lost

the hate and the mages got creamed.

[Penguination]

When PvP is out I can predict 1 thing:

NIN vs. PLD wars. Who is the best tank? we

shall see.

Oh, and when it happens, PLD gonna win. NIN are good, but they wont hit

hard vs a pld with defender, and though it will take somewhere around FOREVER for a PLD to

get in a hit, the NIN will be doin 0, and the PLD will be doin SOME damage. The fights will

be an hour long, but usually will have a PLD victor.

just my little random

prediction. *hides bias of being a PLD*

[Discordian]

Level

your throwing skill and you will do better hate control with shurikens.

puller pulls

mob.
ninja already has blink up so the timer is good to go.
ninja casts elemental

ninjitsu as the mob gets close.
ninja provokes.
ninja pulls weapons.
ninja attacks

once.
ninja throws an item na does nice damage.
ninja recasts blink.

My current

ninja is level 22 but I keep hate fairly well and advise people to keep berserk off untill

late into the fight... do wars listen? Rarely.