[treelo]

You're kinda lucky I'm without a shell to keep me occupied. After comparing the two during my X's Knife testing, I figured it'd be worth doing the same with other daggers to finally make all the Thieves who spam Dancing Edge look like idiots.

Same mobs, same gear, same sample, all continuable at a later date. Both tests done using Blau/S.Kukri.

Dancing Edge:


Evisceration:


Well what can I say? Not much really, they're both about the same. It does back up what I said about those using X's Knife with Dancing Edge since the average is almost identical. Again, accuracy wasn't really an issue and none of these were stacked with SA so it's hard to predict which would turn out tops but it means one of two things is true;

1) There is very little difference between the two using normal weapons.
2) My WS gear needs some work.

I've left Shark Bite out of the equation for now, since it only works well when stacked but I get the feeling it would win overall. I have nothing to back this up at this time, just call it a hunch. If I ever get around to doing stacked tests for these I'll include Shark Bite.

[Ture]

meh your on a diff server, I have a lot of free time for next 4-6 weeks I could hold mobs for your parse. I am intensely bored.

[Sephie]

i did some equations comparing SB and DE using same stats on same mobs, and SB came out with lower potential and middle number, but go ahead and test it

[synthetic]

with pharpe, shark bite is by far my best stacked ws. generally stacked i'm in the range of 2k-2.5k.

unstacked sb is pretty meh of course, de and evis are about even, but the chance to crit on evis tends to make me more willing to use it over dancing edge for an unstacked ws.

my de's and evis are usually in the range of 1.8-2k dmg. unstacked around 1k-1.2k on average if i had to guess. this is going off of greater colibri, since thats what i merit on the most.

i could go parse a few pts this weekend though, i do need alots of merits for some other jobs.

i'm under the assumption that with my gear, evis would def become my #1 ws once i got x's knife, but not quite there yet.

[Ture]

well the mechanics of shark bite dictate that having the higher base damage mean you will generate a higher WS than somebody using a lower base damage, while sacrificing some DOT.

[Dyra]

Treelo, come to Titan.

Me and Ture will both hold your mobs.

[Cassul]

surprising

[Ture]

when are you online dyra I never see you around anymore

[Dyra]

My play time is usually when most NA are sleeping, that could be the reason why you never see me on.

[Ture]

well I play from EU prime time till JP primetime and occasionally random hours in between. Insomnia ftw.

[Shamaya]

That's hawsum of you to parse these against each other, Treelo. Judging, it looks to be 50 ws's each, right? Not a terrible sample. You beat me to this >,<, I haven't been active in almost any forums for at least 6 months, and have rarely posted in my LJ, but comparing the two is something I was really wanting to do. I always start writing something and it comes out to be 1-2 pages and then I just stop because I'm too much of a perfectionist and I'm never satisfied with what I've written.

Eventually when I'm not lazy and if someone else doesn't do it first I'll hit up the math side of this as well. Only first I'd need to actually parse crit rate on a target like G.Colibri.

I was thinking since people started to look at crit tiers, and with some of the nice dex gear that's come out lately that possibly Evisceration might come out on top with the right setup (that people don't always use for DE, since they don't gear moreso for crit), and that's looking to be the case at least when crit rate is decently high.

I have a decent EV set right now I suppose, but I still need to replace PCC with Love, DH with antares, and forager's with cuchulain's. I've already upgraded to cuch. belt and oily trousers; I think black tathlum might be the best for ammo maybe, but that's kind of low on the list of things for a Thf to get. What is your current WS setup?

[Cbarra]

Let me say a few words. First off, I am a Mithra, and generally most races, minus elvaan, you can say, have about 120-130 DEX on ws on average. Evisceration is 30% DEX and DE is 30% DEX and 40% CHR. Well at first glance the CHR seems negligible, and more than likely is. In an instance where someone would have a Skadi's Cuirie for WS DE would pull back into the ranking just fine and possibly pull ahead over a parse with stacked WSs. Look at it like this... With X's, Evisceration is going to win, assuming you don't whiff too much, but minus X's and add in Skadi's Cuirie for DE and I think your numbers would once again tilt. Reason being... In most serious situations, I.E. Greater Colibri Meripo, you are almost ALWAYS going to be stacking your WS's thus making the Crit chance of Evisceration 20% less effective due to it being 5 hits (not including dual weild or a triple attack of any kind). This makes it a little bit harder to say which one would be better for stacking, which is really what I wanted to touch on. Unstacked, again assuming all hits are connecting, it all comes down to how well you can modify your WS with Primary stats. Mithra particularly are going to have a beast of a time Evisceration if it lands flush. A Hume might be able to swing DE a bit better due to lower DEX but Higher CHR. So in the end it is all relative to, not only X's being one of the daggers, but also the rest of the gear a person uses to modify the DMG. On a side note, somewhat, Shark Bite at anything over 200% has a very good chance of topping numbers, and even some times with triple attack and 100% it will shine. I will leave it to someone else to delve up all the math on this, but again, being a Mithra, I have no trouble swinging 2k with ANY of my WS's, even Mandalic Stab. Also, to finally end this lengthy hodge-podge of what seems to almost entirely be opinion... As long as you know what you are doing as a 75THF, you will be able to make each and every one of your DE or latter WS's be sufficient, so play with them, find your bread and butter, and enjoy them all, because frankly, spamming any of the 3(4) gets redundant, and I'd gladly do 10 less dmg once in a while to watch my Mithra Dive dagger-first into a bird, and then explode with blue, white, and purple energy.

Edit: I RAMBLED ALOT. But SRSLY Treelo or anyone else interested in this... Please try to one day post some Stacked and Non-Stacked side by sides for evaluation and consideration. This thread intrigues me.

[synthetic]

i really don't think 8 chr alone can make de shine more than evis or sb.

still working on skadi body so i can't test it at this point, but i believe evis or sb will still top de.

[treelo]

What is your current WS setup?

Hasn't changed since Antares Harness, that's the problem with having everything you need, you don't get anything else after.



And yes, they're both 50 weaponskills long.

wallotext

Actually your average THF has around +40ish DEX, give or take, putting them at a maximum of 110ish. That's assuming they are well equipped with sky/AH gear.

+8CHR will do virtually nothing to your dmg on its own. Stacking CHR is considered a waste because the slots you'll be filling with CHR should be full of DEX.

I won't always stack my Eviscerations in merit parties, two bards and meat will mean I'm knocking 50% HP off a G.Colibri with a stacked Evisceration. Unstacked I'm still capable of hitting 1000-1800. Then add in people running around for auto-targetting reasons, someone pulling hate, etc. While I won't hog TP like you see a lot of people doing, if I think I'll kill something before all my hits land, chances are I'll hold it.

Your point about stacking evisceration being less effective is horribly misguided. It increases your crit rate, because one hit is always a crit, you have the same crit rate on fewer hits, I believe that's an increase. An unstacked Evisceration can hit all 5 hits without a single crit going off. It's also infinitely more effective when comparing Dancing Edge, because that's only ever going to crit once (getting tired of mentioning this.)

You are right about any of the top three weaponskills being viable, where there is a will, there is a way. But seriously, 5+ crits > 1.

[Cbarra]

I'm not going to argue, because nothing you said is really "wrong". Also, instead of quoting and replying to everything I'm just gonna do a summary. In reference to the 5 Crits on Evisceration VS DE. Well, what I meant to be specific was X's knife. IF you are guaranteeing the first hit to be crit for DE or Esivceration by stacking, well, then you are essentially making 20% of the idea of Evisceration being better moot. Second, I also do not ALWAYS stack, and yes, when I do not, it's 99% of the time going to by an Evisceration I'm throwing around. Not that it makes a huge deal, but the 8 CHR won't matter a TON. but it will matter some. In your response, you seemed like you though I was wearing some form of Mythical Guady Harness+1 for THF with only 8 CHR, when in fact I was talking about Skadi which has 8 CHR in addition to 8 DEX 8 AGI (SATAWS bonus, or TAWS) 10 Acc, and 5 Atk. Still, The Evisceration crit thing I said was just typed a little awkward, and I think you interpreted it wrong. Evisceration does not lose usefulness when stacking, but being able to stack ANY of our WS's makes Evisceration essentially 20% less likely to beat other WS's, from a completely factual and mathematical point of view.

I attribute some of this as being my fault, due to me being half asleep and not going into ridiculous detail to say what I needed to say (Yes that wallotext could have been alot bigger), but I think you just either skimmed and missed somethings, or possibly just misunderstood what I was saying. If it matters at all though, I am very interested in seeing you final results of a stacked parse and a non-stacked parse between both when you have time/help.

Edit: Another slight error on my part was assuming everyone is Mithra like me, thus giving me the numbers of 120-130 DEX as an average, seeing as how 80~85+40~50=120~130. Just to be clear.

[nefarious.lover]

Joined: 10-February 09
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[Cbarra]

Nice to meet you ^^

[synthetic]

140+ dex or go home

[Cbarra]

Keyword "Average"

Granted, it would be sweet as hell if all THFs had 140+ DEX because then there would likely be less rage on th forums about shitty performance.

[synthetic]

yeah 140 is my average