[Thekingofjeuno]

I could turn this into a giant mega discussion on post on all forumns but would rather keep it small at least for now. Please post only the benefits of the sub jobs in terms of main tanking, rather it be kiting,blood taking, or whatever fashion of tanking you may have or have known.

Potential sub jobs. WAR, RDM,BLU, NIN, DNC.
Stats First,
Who gives PLD the most...

STR : WAR >>NIN >>DNC>>RDM>>BLU (i dont know how the blu system works so who knows)
DEX :NIN >>DNC>>WAR>>RDM>>BLU (once again BLU needs to be investigated)
VIT :NIN >> WAR >>BLU>>DNC>>RDM
AGI :DNC>>NIN>>WAR>>BLU>>RDM
MND : RDM >> BLU>>DNC>>>WAR>>NIN
CHR :DNC>>RDM>>BLU>>WAR>>NIN
HP : WAR>>NIN>>BLU>>DNC>>RDM
MP :RDM>>BLU
STR= more damage over time which means hate and slightly less time the pld will have to tank.
DEX= more acc for landing hits to gain the hate needed, essentially like STR
VIT = is more defense, less chance of being with a crit hit i believe, and also increases the amount of HP you are healed by including curing yourself. Also increases the amount of damage that rampart will protect you from.
AGI : Is the modifier for defense abilities like shield, parry and evade. Blocking hits and reducing damage is effective also in maintaining hate.
MND : Will affect the amound you can cure by with cure spells and also is said to provide Magic defense. It is also the 2nd modifier for some of PLD's Weapon skills.
CHR : this does not affect provoke although people believe it, However it affect the killer effects on some of the popular PLD gear such as, BEAST KILLER (found on the koenig shield) AQUAN KILLER (found on the bibiki shell) UNDEAD KILLER (used from holy circle) and BIRD KILLER (found on the fowling ring). having CHR will protect from attacks almost like the Tank from myth known as the BST-tank.


~~~~~WARRIOR~~~~~~~

Yes the most predictable and popular.
Ability Traits-
Double Attack : 10% chance to attack twice, which results in more hate over time.
Attack Bonus : +10 ATK which like double attack would result in more hate over time.
Abilities:
Provoke: The 30 hate grabber, i dont need to explain this.
Defender : grants PLD 25% more def and -25%less atk
Warcry : this is a 5 minute recast move that 1) helps grab hate 2) ups pt attack and Bonus TP
Note: Defense bonus 1 does not stack with the PLDs Defense bonus so that doesnt count here.

~~~~REDMAGE~~~~
People say this is the Brick Wall and so it shall be forever known with this term.
Ability Traits
Fast Cast 1~2 : Reduces casting time and recast time of PLD spells, so you can cast faster establishing hate constantly with the spells given.
Magic Defense Bonus : well straitforward, you get magic defense from monsters which is nice since most PLD's focus on physical damage:Im sure spells will still hurt though.
RESIST PETRIFY :well should it ever happen... there ya go.

Spells: oh man this is gonna be long lets just say "beneficial spells"
BLINK : provides shadows
En-elemental spells :this results in more damage which = more hate, and faster kill
Bar-elemental spells : increases resistance for the element you need
Blind : just like flash im sure this spell grabs a bit of hate maybe not as much.
Stoneskin: provides a wall that will protect you from damage.
Phalanx:provides a leve of damage resistance

People always look at a tank who has big defense and can hold hate. Thats all well and good but they arent looking outside the box, /RDM has all these other things that protects them and also gets people out of tough binds. Maybe i will actually write a book about it.

~~~~~~~~~~BLUE MAGE~~~~~~~~
I honestly do not want to do bluemage because i havent leveled it and i dont think my opinion would fare too well, i would rather leave the research to someone else even after reading all the jobs traits and benefits of bluemage.

~~~~~~NINJA~~~~
Shadows bastard-swords arent they.

Ability Traits
Dual-Wield I~II: its there if you need it but most ppl who even ask you to /nin probly want you holding a shield.
Subtle Blow : this makes the mob have less TP, which means less damage you take which means less that a mage will have to waste on healing you.
Spells
Utsusemi Ichi : gives you three shadows, you dont take damage.
Utsusemi ni : also gives you shadows, you dotn take damage. some say you still lose hate just not as much from from taking damage.
Note : i cant believe nin gets more VIT than war, aint that a damn shame

~~~~~DANCER~~~~~
Ability traits , evade, accuracy, and subtle blow bonuses.
Dances/walts/jigs etc.
Also gets animated flourish which is a provide just not as strong as provoke.
I have not level DNC so i cannot give a valid opinion on this. just gonna leave it to the pros.


~~~~~~~~~~~~THATS ALL FOR NOW FOLKS, Expect PART 2 at some point~~~~~~~~~

[Prothescar]

Upon reading this thread, I've noticed are a few errors:

-VIT does not decrease the monster's ability to score a critical hit, AGI does.
-Under Provoke, I'm not sure if you meant it comes at level 30 or what, but it's level 5 for a main job warrior and 10 for subbed warrior.
-You forgot to add Berserk, which is useful for Berserk>Weapon Skill>Cancel Berserk.
-Under the Red Mage spell category, you have neglected to add Bind and Sleep, which are useful for gaining hate along with Blind.
-Under the Ninja section, under spells, Utsusemi does make you lose a small bit of hate, still a fraction of that which you would lose by blood tanking.


For the Blue Mage section:

PLD/BLU is a very situational combo. I've used it for supertanking some things, and in my opinion that's the only place it beats any of the other subs available. With the mixture of cocoon, a weak stoneskin, and a RDM to phalanx II you, you have a nice bit of damage mitigation. I don't know personally if /BLU beats /RDM in the "brick wall" factor, but it certainly is a competitor. As a solo sub it may have very limited potential, but it does not beat /DNC, /NIN, or /RDM for overall survivability.


For the Dancer section:

PLD/DNC offers the ability to use your TP to keep yourself healed, status free, and to keep the mob's defense and/or evasion down. It also has the ability to provoke, like you said, and even give your target the gravity effect, which is fairly inaccurate if you haven't been using evasion down steps. With the proper setup, a.k.a. damage dealing armor such as haubergeon, you may be able to keep your TP high enough to assume a level of invincibility that may or may not be attainable on other subs, outside of /RDM of course. I've only personally used /DNC for campaign, and in that respect, it serves as a powerful combination with PLD's own spells and abilities to the level that I can solo most types of campaign mobs.


Before the haters and flamers come in, note that this thread could be a useful resource for a more detailed insight on sub job selection with some preening and editing.

[Thelian]

add /drk, its kinda like /war only you know.... kinda usefull

[Kaparu]

I really despise the misconception that /RDM grants you any means of protection in a group setting. Stoneskin is impractical for a Paladin in most situations, and their maximum-strength Phalanx is an unimpressive 23 damage per hit. If the goal is to mitigate as much damage as possible, the results are going to come from Utsusemi. The one and only reason to use /RDM in any group situation is Dispel, and to a much lesser degree(due to recast issues), Sleep. In order to keep up with the amount of CE being lost due to physical damage intake is to cast Dispel absolutely non-stop when no more pressing spell needs to be cast. Enspells don't generate enmity, and will be resisted regardless due to Paladin's lackluster enhancing skill.

In most situations /RDM is a toy, used as means to breaking the monotony of /NIN. The net CE gain will be minimal, at the expense of a significant increase in damage taken. What's worse, it leaves you almost completely incapable of swinging, which is awful for a multitude of reasons.

[Prothescar]

You might wanna dd situations where subs are useful.

Warrior: Faust.

Ninja: Everything.

Red Mage, Dancer: Solo, campaign

Blue Mage: Supertanking Multiple Foes (DM, Black Coffin)

[Ayameko]

(i dont know how the blu system works so who knows)

stopped reading there.

[Hyriu]

stopped reading there.

Stats First,

[Gotenn]

Should add on Nin sub that you also get sneak/invis, which granted have nothing to do with tanking but still useful.
I wish people would consider letting pld's go /dnc to more events like say straight tanking gods or such but then again with Atonement being added using your tp to cure/remove status effects would lower your dot yada yada.

Also please edit, I know my grammar isn't the greatest but there were a lot of typos.

[Hitoseijuro]

I really despise the misconception that /RDM grants you any means of protection in a group setting. Stoneskin is impractical for a Paladin in most situations, and their maximum-strength Phalanx is an unimpressive 23 damage per hit. If the goal is to mitigate as much damage as possible, the results are going to come from Utsusemi.

/rdm isnt that bad. You can use it on most things that dont hit like a mack truck. Dark ixion, Faust, King Artho, etc etc. Ive used it on KB before. I think /rdm is pretty neat on kitting at times. Not going to meantion JoL since /rdm or /drk are generally always used if not a rdm/nin. Just like with any job, it takes a required amount of gear or play style to pull it off like another job. It might fair better for some, it might not for others. I agree though that it does help bring something new to the mix other than /nin.

Im still getting my LS to try /nin on KB. For me its much better than /war. I have more flexibility in spamming my hate tools w/o worrying about him hitting me when I stop to cure cheat myself. I havent tried /drk as I dont have it leveled yet ,

Ive become anti /war for almost any situation lol /cry

[Chris Benoit]

madawc leveled paladin?

[Deo2]

War - never use defender, unless you're a taru or have crap armor. Reducing the enmity from your sword puts a greater strain on using Cures to maintain hate. Something that requires having more mp.

Rdm - great for skilling up enhancing magic (fast cast, single target barspells have half the cast time of party barspells) Ok, for soloing anything that doesn't give you status effects. you can land Dia2, although that's as good as it gets for enfeebling the enemy.

Blu - the only status effect spell that will land is headbutt. Good for soloing mage monsters in that respect. Spells have to be equipped and there are limitations based on points. Individually, some give stats, but in certain combinations you can get Auto-Regen, Clear Mind, Beast Killer, or Lizard Killer. There is also Resist Sleep and Undead Killer but I don't think those stack with PLD's, and MAB is useless.

Nin - If a pld/nin does not have Ni, please wear a shield. If you suck at counting shadows, please wear a shield. Dual Wielding: Joyeus + Justice Sword + Virtue Stone + Suppa is hella fun though.

Dnc - I love Aspir Samba. Drain Samba II is ok when fighting things that don't have mp. Both are useless against Undead monsters, but you can fall back on Healing Waltz to remove status effects caused by the Undead as well as anything else.

Whm - Replaced by Dnc, but a good soloing sub against status inducing monsters if you don't have Dnc. Self-Reraise is a plus in campaign, as well as Regen, Stoneskin/Blink and Dia. Aquaveil is pretty handy when your shield just isn't blocking enough to get that vital cure spell through.

[Kaparu]

/rdm isnt that bad. You can use it on most things that dont hit like a mack truck. Dark ixion, Faust, King Artho, etc etc. Ive used it on KB before. I think /rdm is pretty neat on kitting at times. Not going to meantion JoL since /rdm or /drk are generally always used if not a rdm/nin. Just like with any job, it takes a required amount of gear or play style to pull it off like another job. It might fair better for some, it might not for others. I agree though that it does help bring something new to the mix other than /nin.

Like I said, its a toy for most things. There is an extremely minimal gain in CE, which you sacrifice extreme amounts of MP output and damage intake for. And truth be told, the gain in CE is only by virtue of a direct spell comparison. If Atonement is applicable, you're likely in a deficit against /NIN.

[Georgs]

Thekingofjeuno needs to delete everything he has, and die, for the love of god, just die.

[lolwtfbbq]

Thekingofjeuno needs to delete everything he has, and die, for the love of god, just die.

Well then...

[Arkley]

War - never use defender, unless you're a taru or have crap armor. Reducing the enmity from your sword puts a greater strain on using Cures to maintain hate. Something that requires having more mp.

"Never use Defender" is incorrect. Berserk > WS > Defender > TP > Cancel Defender > WS again > Cancel Berserk is the correct usage of Defender.

[Thelian]

never use defender bc it lowers your attack, not bc it lets u get hit for more to self heal. seriously tf...

[FurionStormRage]

I use PLD/NIN to tank everything in Sky (including Faust, I don't feel like changing my subjob to tank one mob), all Jailers except Love, Omega and Ultima.

PLD/RDM or PLD/DRK for kiting

PLD/RDM for Love, but the RDMs usually tank him.

PLD/RDM for soloing or crowd control.
We bring one PLD/RDM into Einherjar Tier 1-2 and Dynamis cities and outlands, and no matter how big the pulls are I can just stand at maxing casting range and spam spells on the mobs, rotating from mob to mob. It builds up more hate than the Sleepgas/Lullabys, nobody dies, and the BLMs/BRDs can stand in one spot instead of running from clusters of mobs and pissing off the people that are buffing them (or that they're buffing in the BRDs case)

I haven't gone PLD/WAR to anything in ages.

[JackalTheManCat]

PLD/WAR is really only for 1h DD anymore (and then you should probably sub NIN + dual wield or SAM + greatsword anyway)

PLD/NIN is general purpose for straight tanking or some kite fights (i like being able to cure within hate range without worry, as stated above)

PLD/RDM or /DRK are good for kited fights or otherwise nonphysical situations (JoL)

PLD/RDM or /DNC are good for soloing/campaign

PLD/WHM is what i use to PL myself when dual boxing because i can get 3 mp/tic refresh and don't have RDM leveled yet (lolPLDhealer)

I think that about covers it

[Prothescar]

I've never personally done PLD/DRK, and I am rather intrigued as to how it works for a kited fight. Generally, if I'm ever kiting, I'm /NIN simply for the ability to be able to cast without being whacked.

[Thekingofjeuno]

Upon reading this thread, I've noticed are a few errors:



Before the haters and flamers come in, note that this thread could be a useful resource for a more detailed insight on sub job selection with some preening and editing.

oh my god thank you so much prothescar you sound like a normaly person, "Ive noticed a few errors" was what i was looking for... thank you have my babies... It's supposed to be a discussion not a debate.... Im already anticipating haters and flamers.... This was the first thing i read before I prepared to read anyone else's comment. THANK YOU SO MUCH

Special Thanks to
'Prothescar' for not being an immediate douchebag.

Special Thanks to
'Prothescar' for being considerate

Special Thanks to
'Prothescar' for providing viable opinions and edits