[Rentahobo]

Bout time someone had a plain and simple yet effective guide cheers nefarious

[synthetic]

assassin's charge has more use than you let on. in hnms i often use it directly after feint. not for epeen ws, but for fast tp gain. it helps keeping up with sams and /sam. especially because thf is such a great sc partner a guaranteed triple attack is just bonus tp to help us out.

personally i did 5/5 ac, 4/5 feint, 1/5 aura steal.

i'm considering changing my feint to 5/5, and ac to 4/5. but holding off til i finish up merits for a few other jobs.

with 1/5 aura steal i have successfully dispelled every dread spikes off of odin, oftentimes just because steal is faster than waiting for a brd or rdm to dispel. and i've had such good luck with it my first couple odins i now watch for it, considering myself one of the main dispellers on that fight. which only adds more versatility to the thf job. i don't see a necessity however for anything higher than 1/5 if you don't solo much, and even if you do, solo'ing is still very viable without it. feint and ac are far more important abilities to me.

[nefarious.lover]

Yes, it may be situationally more useful than I let on, and I'd be happy to add notes to that effect just as I have with Treelo, but I think you guys cry HNM HNM HNM way too much. Not everyone does HNM, especially not the people who are genuinely going to need to look to a guide for a place to start on THF.

If you break down the TP gained, 10 ish TP per attack round... 2 TP per minute on a 5 minute recast, 1 TP per 30 seconds, so .1 TP per 3 seconds? That's really making or breaking catching up with a SAM?

*shrug* Maybe there's something I don't know. But I never found it to be that useful.

I also don't do HNM. I suspect a fair amount of THF are not in a situation where every time the SAM has TP the BLM are ready to SC and they're being waited on for more than an attack round or two, tops, and I don't think such a niche use justifies the merits unless you personally want the JA available to you outside of HNM. Wereas full feint is useful everywhere all the time.

[synthetic]

well i think me and treelo are saying things relative to hnms, because thats what we know.

in an hnm scene the thf's role as a dd is a bit harder to prove over some other dd's so doing things like maximizing tp gain, and feint are things that will help you stand out amongst the average "i have knife and gloves" thf. and while the tp gain may not be anything amazing (certainly not as huge as meditate), it is helpful even if only to a small extent. where i find it to be most useful is fafnir/nidhogg, as thf can now open and close both sides of light, it makes us one of the most versatile sc partners. so even if say a drk and sam just made a sc, you can perhaps go with a pld or something to that extent.

and i'm not saying feint isn't useful, as i noted i am considering swapping to 5/5 feint and 4/5 ac, i just have too many merits in other jobs i need to worry about atm to start taking away merits from thf.

my ls in particular, blms are ready to go on sc. very rarely are we waiting on them. even if not all can get a burst II off for mb, you'll often see thunder 4's going for the mb. so yes sc'ing often is a benefit we generally are not holding tp for too long if at all.

and outside of hnms, ac is fun. you can say its just epeen, but its fun to pump out giant ws numbers that would be hard to achieve without it.

and what i've seen out of most hnm thfs leads me to believe they need to read some guides more than anyone else.

[nefarious.lover]

No, pretty much every-fucking-one needs a guide, lol.


Which just means we're going to have a lot of "For HNM" and "For normal people" notes.


More on this later, my hands genuinely hurt from work and typing today.

[Smoker]

Very useful and informative guide. Thank You

STICKY PLEASE!

[Drwatsononhades]

Hide Recast
Level: 75
Notes: -10 seconds per upgrade
No. There is no excuse to merit this. Ever.
You would be laughed at less for meriting VIT on an account with only BLM leveled.

If you merit a lot on birds, this can be useful - SA, Hide, WS. Archain, has this category maxed for this very reason, i believe.

I'm not saying you should merit Hide recast, but discounting its usefulness as strongly as you did probably isn't warrented.

[nefarious.lover]

If you merit a lot on birds, this can be useful - SA, Hide, WS. Archain, has this category maxed for this very reason, i believe.

I'm not saying you should merit Hide recast, but discounting its usefulness as strongly as you did probably isn't warrented.

I'm sorry but, are you genuinely advocating the use of 150,000 EXP to speed up how fast you get EXP?

And why do you even need hide on birds in merit? Plz to be behind mob kthx.



It's genuinely bad misdirection and misinformation like this that requires me to word things strongly so that new players don't get confused by bad advice that other people like to post.


Seriously, 75, on thf, meriting enough to want to maximize your damage, and you want to merit Hide to save you the trouble of being behind the mob instead of SA or TA, which would actually boost your DPS?



Sorry dude, no dice.


It's a fuckwaddedly retarded thing to merit.

Period.



Edit:

There I go again with the strong wording.

I know you're not actually advocating that it get merited, but that's the problem. If you wouldn't even suggest anyone merit it, and can only honestly think of one use for meriting it... why worry about how I worded my assessment of the merit?

Yes, it might have some niche uses. I'm sure in theory there's situations that it's downright handy. If someone knows enough about the job to find a use like this, hopefully they know enough to ignore my generic advice and not let it stop them from meriting it.

Your game; Play your way.

But in terms of ability to pump out DPS, TA and SA merits will win on a parse if you cloned a player/account and only had that difference in merits/gear.


Who knows why he merited it, but, I don't really see the point in including anecdotes about one person's playing preferences in a guide meant for everyone.

[Drwatsononhades]

Seriously, why the animosity? I was just making a comment, not attacking you...

To compare a thf upgrading Hide recast to a blm adding VIT merits is simply misleading. It's responses like yours that prevent new players asking for relatively simple advise on forums like this, and consequently ending up making bad equip/merit choices.

I stand by my previous comment. Do i have hide merits, no, i have 3SA 2TA. Below is the PM converstation i had with Archain, probably 18months ago. He seems relatively happy with his choice?


DrwatsonOnHades wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I noticed on one of your current skills SS that you had 5/5 Hide merits. I'm guessing this is to utilise SA/Hide/WS? After capping triple attack (4/5 atm), i'm torn with where to go next.

Thank you for all your invaluable posts. They've really helped me get to grips with thf

Archain wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I use Hide a ton. I try to use it whenever it's up if I've got TP for the start of a fight. Hide x5 gives me a 4:10 reuse timer. In my eyes I saw a greater benefit in shaving 50 seconds off Hide than I did 10 seconds in either SA or TA (Yes, I use it that much, lol). I was always checking the CNTL-J menu to see if it was up again.

Triple Attack is a given, so at a minimum that one is an easy choice. Your choice for the second has to fit with your personal playstyle. If there were more merits allowed I'd personally go for TA reuse after Triple and Hide, lol.

I can't help too much with this one because it's a personal call; I can only tell you why I went that way.

[nefarious.lover]

The strong wording is because a relic thf stuck with hate in meripo is about the only reason I can see a need for hide, any other situation and you probably don't/shouldn't/wont have hate and you'll be free to TA and SA whenever, even as a relic thf.

I just don't "Get" meriting things for meripo... unless it's a job you use just for merits. Which would be an odd use for relic.

And even in Meripo I never had issues, if I had hate I'd TA>>WS someone, and then SA solo.


Personal playing style and preference, is, yes, a factor. See my edit above.


I just seriously don't get it.

To the best of my knowledge you can't hide from most NM and HNM.
I could be wrong but, I know you can't hide from true sight mobs, and I'm pretty sure you can't hide from true sound, so it's use seems pretty limited to normal mobs and merit...


To each their own, but, I guess I just really don't see where it's so useful.





60seconds * 5 = 300
300 - 50 seconds max hide redux = 250
250 / 300 = 0.83333333333333333333333333333333


50 second SA or TA (-10 seconds total)
50 / 60 (original recast) = 0.83333333333333333333333333333333


They're mathematically identical reductions in recast.


The honest difference is one just seems to add novelty, or convenience and the other actually adds damage.


Sorry for the harsh reaction, I just happen to think that there is no sound reason to merit it other than because you felt like it.

[treelo]

I seriously doubt merit parties were the sole consideration in choosing to merit Hide. In situations where SATA isn't possible, and they're numerous, being able to land a fully stacked SATAWS on a mob will stick more hate, and do more damage. The same goes for merit parties as well, the damage you'll gain from a SATAWS instead of splitting the two is significant and we all know how hard it is to SATA in a merit party. When you're surrounded by pimped out DDs and the mob is spinning madly as they're bouncing hate all over the place, being able to just stand where you are and SA+Hide+WS is pretty damn handy.

It's not something I'd choose myself, but to assume it's inefficient or wrong because you don't agree with it is stupid.

[treelo]

though apparently not for getting into a linkshell, if Treelo's current homelessness is an indicator

Damn, I only just noticed this. My ego has little to do with my lack of a linkshell. I left Progeny due to a change of leadership, a truckload of drama and a rash of new recruits who weren't up to the task. I took a few months off to recover from a 2 year period of sleepless nights and 16hr days spent mostly camping HNMs. The past month has seen me in and out of various linkshells because I have incredibly high standards, and none of them were good enough. I've only been turned down by one linkshell and that was apparently because they have a lot of german members, go figure. Something about my "hitler persona" I believe.

Ego gets you a long way, if I didn't know I was better than everyone else, I wouldn't be where I am now.

[rambus]

Damn, I only just noticed this. My ego has little to do with my lack of a linkshell. I left Progeny due to a change of leadership, a truckload of drama and a rash of new recruits who weren't up to the task. I took a few months off to recover from a 2 year period of sleepless nights and 16hr days spent mostly camping HNMs. The past month has seen me in and out of various linkshells because I have incredibly high standards, and none of them were good enough. I've only been turned down by one linkshell and that was apparently because they have a lot of german members, go figure. Something about my "hitler persona" I believe.

Ego gets you a long way, if I didn't know I was better than everyone else, I wouldn't be where I am now.

lol.....

that trickles in game too?

what are your merits reeelo? do you agree the part on keeping sneak attack and trick attack on same recast? if your in 5 tripple attack and need to divide sneak attack and trick attack up is that 4 seconds worth it? maybe ill max out hide...

rereading NL's post im thinging aobut the usefulness on hide, maybe having a list of mobs you can hide on will help greatly but i dont see the point in taking off 4 seconds each of trick attack and sneak attack

[pathwriter]

My ego has little to do with my lack of a linkshell.

I was mostly just referring to a few posts you've made referencing people who don't seem to understand that Thief does damage in addition to providing Placebo Hunter.

[treelo]

Yes, apparently people assume I goosestep around whitegate chanting nazi propaganda and waving my arm around like a loon.

Treelo Notes: Keep your sa/ta timers roughly the same with merits, there are only a few times you'll not be using sata that i can think of if you're planting hate that is but that's a personal preference.
(This is primarilly with HNM in mind. If you're not doing HNM this is not as much of a consideration.)

Yes, I agree with what I said in the first place. Pay more attention next time.

[FarlisChere]

i just wanted to make a note that archery is not completely worthless. Para arrows are really good if you solo. Ill often start a fight with feint then lead it right into a para arrow, the para effect lasts upwards of 8 minutes. Also sleep arrows with a lamian kamen can save your ass against spells

[rambus]

Yes, apparently people assume I goosestep around whitegate chanting nazi propaganda and waving my arm around like a loon.



Yes, I agree with what I said in the first place. Pay more attention next time.

i know tht but my main consern would be this, that would defult you to 2 sneak, 2 trick, and one hide with 5 tipple.

if your not into hide, and not into lol flee is this what your merit looks like?

[Melos]

i know tht but my main consern would be this, that would defult you to 2 sneak, 2 trick, and one hide with 5 tipple.

if your not into hide, and not into lol flee is this what your merit looks like?

each merit of TA and SA is -2 seconds...it's perfectly okay for you to have 3 SA and 2 TA; by the time you're ready positioned to SATA again, those 2 extra seconds of waiting for TA will have passed.

[nefarious.lover]

i just wanted to make a note that archery is not completely worthless. Para arrows are really good if you solo. Ill often start a fight with feint then lead it right into a para arrow, the para effect lasts upwards of 8 minutes. Also sleep arrows with a lamian kamen can save your ass against spells

Properly utilized evasion and blind bolts will be equally effective.

Delay:261 v.s. Delay:216

Lamia Kamen +1 loses to Ziska's.

Archery is also a C minus compared to a C plus in marksmenship.

I would say that it's worth capping, and opening with a ranged attack from a bow with +racc, with a para arrow, and then immediately swapping to bolts.

But where's your ability to drain life on bows?

10 point skill difference, all of the low delay bows besides Lamia Kamen +1 have vastly inferior racc boosts, and Kamen +1 is only 6 to Ziska's 8. So best case scenario is you're dealing with 12 less racc, and 45 more delay, just to get a para arrow off, which probably doesn't proc on mobs that are significantly higher level than you.


I'll go test it sometime, to satisfy my curiosity, but Kamen +1 is a mil on Asura, and Ziska's is 800k, and Kamen +1 is something you'd want/need in addition to Ziska's, so I'm having trouble justifying it's use until I go land para on greater colibri or something else significant like a ZNM mob, or serket, or something like that. If it only procs on lesser colibri, what's the point? But I'll have to go see for myself.


Assuming paralysis can proc on difficult high level mobs, there may be a niche use for opening up with a para arrow, but I would never ever ever tell a THF it's ok to forsake 12 points of ranged accuracy, bloody bolts, blind bolts, and acid bolts, for paralysis.


Maybe if you had Ranger75 and capped archery, the +18 racc would push Archery into a more feasible realm, but, at the same time I still can't get over the delay and lack of ability to drain life back. 45 delay isn't the end of the world but I'd rather not take any chances when I'm trying to stun TP moves. Sure, -ga is easy if it's Thundaga IV and your arrow procs the first time... but sometimes my bolts don't proc on certain mobs and I'm spamming them and praying that one does.



So, maybe niche use, but, I'd wanna see some documented testing about what it procs on and how often, otherwise I'm still going to list archery as vastly inferior to marksmenship. But I'm not gonna like, the promise of paralysis is tempting, but only if it proced on things I couldn't otherwise solo, giving me that edge to survive.

[nefarious.lover]

each merit of TA and SA is -2 seconds...it's perfectly okay for you to have 3 SA and 2 TA; by the time you're ready positioned to SATA again, those 2 extra seconds of waiting for TA will have passed.

This; or if you prefer to TA first, 3TA 2SA.


Depends also if you solo more, SA merits are more important. If you have an Aegis/Excal PLD main tank who lives on FFXI for all events .... SATA recast is going to be less important than if you're dealing with some nubby faggot in sky tanking in 300k worth of gear.

I've never had issues keeping hate on a tank with no TA merits, I'm 5/5 SA, from talking to Treelo it really does sound like SATA is mostly an HNM consideration. Your mileage may vary, situational shit is situational, etc.


Only you know your personal circumstances best, and what your endgame plans are. Plan accordingly.