[Byrthnoth]

4% Haste moving from 56 to 60 Haste is a ~9% reduction in delay. 3% DW moving from 20->23% DW is a ~4% reduction in delay. Because neither appears to affect your TP return, they're comparable. It's about a 5% difference in attack speed. However, you gain 12-13 Accuracy, 2-3 Attack, and 1-2 base weapon damage (each is about a 3.5% increase in base damage for a Blau/SK THF.) I'd be shocked if this wasn't the best meat-eating THF body now.

[JackalTheManCat]

Homam legs/feet, dusk+1 gloves, turban, speed belt, and rap harness would put you at 25% haste. I don't think i'd trade dusk+1 for homam, just playing the devil's advocate on "thf can cap haste in gear" angle. BB monk can afford to give up haste on a slot and still keep 25%

Maybe i'm missing some other haste gear that could be swapped in to recoup the deficiency, but losing rap harness (4% haste that won't drop your TP/hit) to put on this with DW+ (3% delay reduction that will drop your tp/hit) just doesn't make sense to me, unless you find you need the accuracy and choose to put that on your gear.

EDIT: emphasis on belt above. Most THF cap out at 22% haste

[rambus]

im interested how this will do as ws piece,

5 STR, DEX, AGI 10 attack and 3% crt rate...

compare with other selections.

[Gredival]

EDIT: emphasis on belt above. Most THF cap out at 22% haste

Well I have a Speed Belt which is why I'm asking about delay reductions with reference to 60% Haste.

im interested how this will do as ws piece,

5 STR, DEX, AGI 10 attack and 3% crt rate...

compare with other selections.

With that specific augment build it might beat Dragon Harness, but I imagine it'd fall short of Skadi/Antares. On multi-hits due to the lack of accuracy and on Shark Bite I'd say that the STR will be negligible with respect to the DEX loss.

I'm tempted to say even Hecatomb might do better with Dancing Edge, although I'm not sure on Evisceration.

[Dyra]

My question is this.

Why would you want a piece which might or might not be better than an already existing piece that you can buy off AH for less than 200k, when you can use the opportunity to develop the piece into something your other jobs will benefit much more?

Unless you only got THF lvled...


Which is unlikely these days...

[rambus]

My question is this.

Why would you want a piece which might or might not be better than an already existing piece that you can buy off AH for less than 200k, when you can use the opportunity to develop the piece into something your other jobs will benefit much more?

Unless you only got THF lvled...


Which is unlikely these days...

waighing my options, i can have a good tp piece for rng , or barrage, this for thf, DRG friend said they have better options and the hauby thing for mnk? just doono....

maybe if there was a way to make it useful for a few jobs aside from one but i have to look into the other jobs better, atm im trying to rush them all to 75.

on a sidenote saving this for PLD may be good .>.>

I understand this is only thf though so just trying to see the different potential results.

you are shudesting just get the dragon harness right?

[nefarious.lover]

Only gonna have THF BRD WAR MNK; Don't care about MNK, WAR has Hauby+1, can't see a real need to replace Manteel unless it was just to save money.

[Melos]

waighing my options

you are shudesting

I'm sure making fun of Rambus' grammar is old now; but this was too funny to pass up.

[Gredival]

My question is this.

Why would you want a piece which might or might not be better than an already existing piece that you can buy off AH for less than 200k, when you can use the opportunity to develop the piece into something your other jobs will benefit much more?

Unless you only got THF lvled...


Which is unlikely these days...

The 200k comment makes me think you're referring to SH. For lots of us, me in particular, we aren't getting it for EVA. Thus the whole Haste vs. DW discussions.

My personal goal is to play the best damage Thief possible so if this parses better than JSE in full Haste situations I'll grab it, however marginal that increase. Ironically I have Paladin too the job that probably gets the best potential reward for this, and I'm one of the main rotation tanks for my shell. But I just don't care very much about playing it to max potential (I feel that I already play it very well and that I have no need to waste a one-or-the-other reward on Paladin). Thief is my main, and my agenda is damage.

[Melos]

Thief is my main, and my agenda is damage.

/clap!

[rambus]

The 200k comment makes me think you're referring to SH. For lots of us, me in particular, we aren't getting it for EVA. Thus the whole Haste vs. DW discussions.

My personal goal is to play the best damage Thief possible so if this parses better than JSE in full Haste situations I'll grab it, however marginal that increase. Ironically I have Paladin too the job that probably gets the best potential reward for this, and I'm one of the main rotation tanks for my shell. But I just don't care very much about playing it to max potential (I feel that I already play it very well and that I have no need to waste a one-or-the-other reward on Paladin). Thief is my main, and my agenda is damage.

dragon harness is about 200k. I have SH+1 but this is not something i want to use ( i do not have haste JSE body/ or homan for tp) I plan on getting homan someday i hope so im looking for a WS piece that may not be from endgame.

bettween moding this for ws, heca body, or dragon harness.

also baring the fact i want to put AF hands +1 to use....

[Arcsol]

im interested how this will do as ws piece,

5 STR, DEX, AGI 10 attack and 3% crt rate...

compare with other selections.

I posted that same setup last page Rambus

[rambus]

ya this is a good replay to it:

Off the bat I'd rule this out as a weapon-skill piece. Even ruling out Skadi I don't think this outmatches Antares by much, if it all. We're essentially talking about 5STR/2ACC and either 10ATTK or Crits against 3DEX/3AGI. Most of us are going to cap STR on birds so that's negligible. Next I'm probably inclined to take modifiers over 2ACC and either 10ATTK or Crits. (I don't think it would be a wise choice to roll with 10ATTK/Crits and drop the ACC augment with DE or EV)

As a TP piece I'm skeptical. Augmenting it to DW/10 ACC definitely seem to give this an edge against Rapparree, but I'm personally unsure about how DW scales against Haste. I keep Rapparree around because I ride the Haste cap. Effective delay reduction for those of us at cap would probably be far less when using a DW augment. Whether its worth the 12.5 accuracy is questionable.

As for evasion, I don't have an evasion set.

im a bit confused how do you cap out in str? i thought you caped out in attack from relshipip on str..

i doono i thought you could get acc in other place kinda like using heca for ws i dont think that has acc on it...

[JackalTheManCat]

Well I have a Speed Belt which is why I'm asking about delay reductions with reference to 60% Haste.

tl;dr version - the more haste you have, the more each percentage point counts. Don't give up 1% attack speed unless you're getting some other bonus out of it.

In my post i was saying that with dusk+1 and speed belt, thief just hits the 25% gear cap. Taking away JSE body you WILL NOT hit the cap. Assuming you have a good bard and are getting 21% from marches, but lack dusk+1, you probably sit around a max of 60% haste. With suppa and /nin your delay would be reduced a further 20% but at a cost of some TP/hit.

Anyway, for argument's sake we'll say average dagger delay is 180. Some people like pharpe/blau and others like blau/sirocco, so we'll split the difference. With 60% haste and 20% dual wield, a combined delay of 360 becomes a delay of 72 per attack round, or 36 per swing.

If you swap out JSE body for 3% DW you'll lose 1% attack speed. It's not a big difference stat-wise, but going from 60% haste/20%DW to 56% haste/23%DW takes that combined 72 delay to a combined 75.6 delay. It may not sound like much, but comparing 72 to 75.6 calculates out to be like a 4.8% loss in attack speed. Keep in mind that you'll also get less TP per hit with higher dual wield values. That may or may not even matter though, it just depends on whether the reduced TP means you have to land another attack to hit 100%

As a side note, with dusk+1 added into the original figures (total 61% haste, 20% DW) your combined delay would be 68.4 ...or a 5% improvement in attack speed compared to 72 per round delay. Swapping out JSE for 3% DW here would calculate out to an even 5% loss in attack speed, taking you back to that 72 combined delay.

Actually, i could see this being a pretty sweet piece of TP gear if you put on 3% DW and 10 accuracy. Then you'd kinda get the benefits of acc body and attack speed boost as well. As it stands, if mobs have tough evasion you have to give up an attack speed boost to put on SH/AH/homam. Rapparee would still win if you don't have accuracy issues though.

Disclaimer: i work at 5 a.m. these days, and still go to school, have social life, play FFXI couple hours most days... so i don't sleep much. If my numbers are way off i blame the insomnia

[Byrthnoth]

Disclaimer: i work at 5 a.m. these days, and still go to school, have social life, play FFXI couple hours most days... so i don't sleep much. If my numbers are way off i blame the insomnia

Naw, those are about the same numbers I got at the top of the page.


Thanks to the miracle of truncation though, for Blau/SK it's actually:

378*.8*.4 = 120 delay = 60 delay per hand (6.25% less than 3% DW)
378*.77*.44 = 128 delay = 64 delay per hand (6.66% higher than Rapparee Harness)





The math showing that TP wouldn't be affected:

Blau/Sirocco 150+178 base = 328 delay

131 delay per hand with 20% DW (4.59 = 4.5 TP/hand) and 13 STP = 5.0 TP
126 delay per hand with 23% DW (4.55 = 4.5 TP/hand) and 13 STP = 5.0 TP

120 delay per hand with 13 STP = 5.0TP, would require 26.83% DW, so 26% is probably the max DW you can get before you lose your 5TP/hit. Still, another 3% has no effect on your TP return.





The math showing that adding base damage is pretty kickass for Blau/SK TPing:

33+26 = 59; With one more base damage on each hand, 34+27 = 61
61/59 = 3.4% increase in base damage.

Considering that sometimes the 5 STR will actually be a difference of two base damage in fSTR, you can approximate it at a 4% increase in base damage.

[Gredival]

ya this is a good replay to it:



im a bit confused how do you cap out in str? i thought you caped out in attack from relshipip on str..

i doono i thought you could get acc in other place kinda like using heca for ws i dont think that has acc on it...

For TP'ing the 5STR will help out definitely in increasing base dmg, but the way you augmented it was as a WS piece so I'm only looking at WS. Considering most of us merit on Birds, I'm looking at the fact the effective Strength cap on Greater Colibri is 103~ I believe for Blau/SK. 107 is you're using Pharpe. I forgot X's Knife. I hit over 110+ easily as a Hume with 5STR merits, so I'm assuming even for the races with less STR it should be feasible to hit the cap without this body piece.

Removing Skadi from the equation, Antares Harness is the next best matchup. It's buyable from AH, and offers all of Skadi's Bonuses -8 CHR, -2 Acc, -5 Attk so with enough time its available to any Thief really.

So we've got three possible WS specs of MW to consider

a) Accuracy + Crits
Accuracy + Attack
c) Attack + Crits

In all of these comparisons it's relevant to keep in mind Sneak Attack gives Dex a completely linear relationship to DMG with no marginal returns. So losing 3DEX/3AGI is pretty significant and STR doesn't compensate much for that here (Sidenote: We're not STR capped HNMs, but for any mob where your STR is that crappy you're probably using a one-hit WS, which have higher DEX mods and give you more incentive to stick with the DEX over STR)

I think the best situation is if you just augment Acc/Crits. You get 2ACC~ and Crit chance in exchange for some modifiers. Might be worth it for Evis. I wouldn't do this for Dancing though.

If you augment Accuracy/Attack, you get 2ACC and 10 Attack. I personally don't think 10 Attack is hot enough to justify your loss of DEX.

If you're augmenting Attack/Crits you also incur a loss of 8~ accuracy, which is pretty significant for a multi-hit weaponskill like DE or EV. Again any situation where you're using Shark Bite or Mandalic Stab you're probably better sticking with DEX anyway.

[Symbios]

I think the real question that's worth asking here is, are any of actually willing to wear this thing? It looks ugly as hell.

[treelo]

So we've got three possible WS specs of MW to consider

a) Accuracy + Crits
cool.gif Accuracy + Attack
c) Attack + Crits

A and C are completely useless combinations for WS builds for anything apart from Evisceration. (Starting to sound like a broken record aren't I? But hear me out.)

Accuracy means jack shit to Shark Bite but could be fairly useful for DE, BUT...
Crits don't proc on DE or SB. This negates option C as well.

If anything, you would couple Acc or Attk with something like Double Attack for your WS build. Would I recommend using any of those for Evisceration? Not really. Attack/Crits would possibly be a nice combination, providing it doesn't count towards the 25% cap on crit rate.

This thing has very limited uses for THF. I'll probably choose it just to mess around with various combinations to see how it measures up against other pieces, simply because I don't use my other jobs often enough to warrant wasting such a reward on them.

[pathwriter]

I think the real question that's worth asking here is, are any of actually willing to wear this thing? It looks ugly as hell.

Compared to the "Hi, I'm purple... and fabulous!" option or the "Hey, look, a red harness like everyone and their mother" option? Those people with Homam Corazza might consider it a downgrade in terms of looks, but otherwise...

Of course, I'm biased. I like how Mirke Wardecors looks.

[Melos]

I think the real question that's worth asking here is, are any of actually willing to wear this thing? It looks ugly as hell.

Compared too...?

Rapparee harness, and Homam corazza are both ugly as sin.