[Kaparu]

Pull from the topic What will you choose?!

Not everyone does visible gear swaps when they tank. I can tank everything in the game with my only swaps being non-visible, and do it better than any of the paladins in other ls who blink so much you almost never see them if you don't have blinkmenot installed.

5 enmity with 5% fast cast most definitely isn't the winner by any margin. Neither is 10 acc and 5 enmity, since if I wanted that I'd just get an avalon while also getting -5% magic damage. I'd honestly take the -5% damage over 2 enmity, since its already easy as hell to cap hate in just a couple minutes from claim. Enmity is so hugely overrated that its silly.
The only undisputed useful stat for a paladin on this, that you can't get in other bodies, is the fast cast. Every other useful stat, be it acc, attack, or enmity you can get in bigger amounts in other gear thats much older. Doesn't matter if you talk ares, haubert, homam, avalon, or hauby +1. This gear merely gives you a chance to maybe save 1 gear slot or a tiny bit of gil by tossing your valor, selling your avalon or hauby, or just avoiding tavnazia. Its nice, but its just SE's usual sidegrade gear, except they added some fluff by letting us pick which sidegrade we want.

The jobs who made out like bandits with this, are ranger, cor, the pet jobs, and I guess ninja for an enhanced ninja chainmail in merits. We just got something a little bit shiny to make us forget the terrible job that SE is doing with the wotg expansion.

Choosing not to blink at this point is idiotic. The targeting system no longer prevents it from being viable to those without healers utilizing BlinkMeNot.

And you have no grasp of enmity if you believe you cap it at all in most situations, much less within minutes.

[nefarious.lover]

Choosing not to blink at this point is idiotic. The targeting system no longer prevents it from being viable to those without healers utilizing BlinkMeNot.

And you have no grasp of enmity if you believe you cap it at all in most situations, much less within minutes.

<stpt>
<stal>

Learn it.
Live it.
Love it.
And teach your mages how the fuck to use it.

And then shut the fuck up and properly fucking macro your gimp asses.

[Phlow]

Last time I ran the numbers, it would take like... 10 minutes of pure melee, flash, and capped Atonement to get to 10,000 CE. And I didn't account for spell casting time.

So, Kap's right, it's not going to be easy to cap hate.

Personally, I'm leading towards Fast Cast and Enmity. But I already have a HQ Haub if I need the ACC and ATK. Ares is out there for refresh and ATK. Homam if you need more ACC.

Realistically speaking, yes you could fully justify a lot of choices on that gear. But let's go ahead and agree that, given all the other body pieces available to us as a PLD and all the different allowable playstyles (gear macros; blinkmenot; etc), that we do NOT have a body piece that will not only speed the cast rate of a Cure-Bomb, but also add 5% enmity to it. Couple that with the ability to take the recasts down (I believe you can get 49.5% recast redux with this body piece, a March, and a Haste, leaving room for a nice fat +30 ACC Madrigal) and it is a clear winner.

Arguing that other slots are better for your situation might be right. However, arguing that other slots are better overall is just bull-headed. It's like saying I want a three legged dog over a four legged dog because a three legged dog is faster than a two legged dog.

[killmer]

huh?

ever heard of cure macros?
i can cap hate in ~5 minutes, given sentinel is up and i have mp.
i just spam my cure macro while sentinel is up and toss in a flash and i'm set quickly. pop a 600+ atonement after and you're nearly there.

also, i don't blink either unless i'm casting ichi. why the hell do you need to blink that much these days? you idle in your acc/haste gear anyways and you can easily make non-blinking macros for just about everything you do. realistically, if you know what you're doing this crap is not hard to do...

[Kaparu]

Just to elaborate, when Phlow says "pure <this>, <this>, and <this>", he means that the 60 CE lost every time a shadow is taken, the X-CE lost every time you take any manner of damage, and the fact that you're not just swinging your sword or casting Flash while tanking(you're, you know, tanking) isn't taken into account.

You do not generally cap hate, enmity is not overrated, and there is no justification for not blinking when your actions can be augmented by doing so.

Killmer, present evidence, or stop suggesting that the game's mechanics do not apply to you.

Furthermore, I challenge any of you to attempt to justify not utilizing different equipment for different actions, when said differences are more ideal for said actions. "Because I don't need to is unacceptable"; You could tank naked should you be so inclined, but that certainly doesn't make it any less of an idiotic decision.

[nefarious.lover]

also, i don't blink either unless i'm casting ichi. why the hell do you need to blink that much these days? you idle in your acc/haste gear anyways and you can easily make non-blinking macros for just about everything you do. realistically, if you know what you're doing this crap is not hard to do...

HAY GUISE WHAT I DO SEEMS TO WORK PLEASE VALIDATE MY CHOICE TO NOT EXCEL AT MY JOB!

[killmer]

yeah because i love being subpar at my job... i do it for my mages... not everyone uses blinkmenot. i would personally love if all my mages made macros with my name in it, i'd really love that perfect world. fact is, it does not always happen. i can justify blinking like crazy on one of my melee jobs but not my pld. you never know which mages have your name macrod. i just like to prepare for the worst. the way i see it, your gear swaps are pointless if you're eating dirt. optimal is situational no matter how you look at it, your shell's optimal is different from mine. the only slots i don't currently swap are the main body pieces, everything else is swapped with every action i do

[Diavolo_Asura]

Sounds to me like you need to get better mages.

[Eurlin]

<stpt>
<stal>

Learn it.
Live it.
Love it.
And teach your mages how the fuck to use it.

There really never was an excuse for not blinking.. and now you have even more reasons as to why you should....yet you still think you're right?

<stpc> <stpt> <stnpc> <stal> "Name" i mean really...communication

[killmer]

honestly, i'll agree there. i don't like making up for their shortcomings.

[AsDraBael]

I dunno what mobs you guys are tanking than it takes 10 minutes to cap hate on.....I can usually have hate capped and just be riding the line with a cotank before sentinels recast is up (and I have it fully meritted), and without visible swaps (which my spells all have 32 enmity usually on them with no visible swaps. I can pump it up higher with a couple changes to my idle set).

Blinking on every other job is fine, because if some freak targetting accident happens, it doesn't matter. Could our mages handle blinking? Probably. Do I care to find out just to cap hate maybe 20 seconds faster when its already 4 minutes or less? Not particularly. You can scream bloody murder and say I suck all you want, but I still probably have more tanking experience and have killed more things than all but a small handful of the paladins here. Backseat Paladins who have never gone up against the hardest stuff in the game to tank (none of them really all that particularly hard) need not apply, and the ones who have have a right to their opinion, but side by side, you'd never see a difference in a fight other than I'm always visible to everybody, 100% of the time, and they're not.

This blinking vs nonblinking argument gets older and staler and more retarded every single time its brought up, and I have good and sufficient reason to not blink, and everyone I'm with is happy with it. If I joined a shell where they insisted on blinking, I'd just slightly alter my macros, but at the moment, my macros are staying non-visible.

edit: Just realized I never elaborated. I blink on JA, but not cures/flash/utsu. I also have the usual fire resist/MDB/shield set/-physical sets to swap on in emergencies. I just don't blink every 3 seconds.

[Phlow]

huh?

ever heard of cure macros?
i can cap hate in ~5 minutes, given sentinel is up and i have mp.
i just spam my cure macro while sentinel is up and toss in a flash and i'm set quickly. pop a 600+ atonement after and you're nearly there.

also, i don't blink either unless i'm casting ichi. why the hell do you need to blink that much these days? you idle in your acc/haste gear anyways and you can easily make non-blinking macros for just about everything you do. realistically, if you know what you're doing this crap is not hard to do...

Let's take a look at it mathematically:

Given:
Constructed a build exclusively for a Cure w/ Shadows Up scenario: +30 enmity (meaning all haste and all enmity).
Assumed Tank PT of (PLD, PLD, WHM, BRD, BRD, RDM)
~425mp, refreshed at the rate of 7mp/tick (refresh+ballad+ballad+auto-refresh)

Cure III:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Cure_III
Using Cure III to cap CE (soft cap 180hp)
Cure III has 2.5 sec casting time, 6 sec recast
http://kanican.livejournal.com/30142.html - Cure table

Sentinel:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sentinel
Sentinel has a capped +100 enmity mod
Sentinel lasts 30 seconds


180hp cured * 0.727 = 130.86 enmity * 1.3 enmity mod = 170.118 CE per Cure III
180hp cured * 0.727 = 130.86 enmity * 2.0 enmity mod = 261.72 CE per Cure III under Sentinel

Modified Times:

Modified Cast Time: 2.5s * .94 = 2.35s
Modified Recast Time: 6s * .50 = 3s
Total: 5.35s for Cure III to land

Adjusted MP cost per Cure

5.35s per cast
7mp per tick
3s per tick

5.35s per cast / 3s per tick = 1.783 ticks per cast
1.783 ticks per cast * 7mp per tick = 12.48
12.48mp gained per cast (will round to 13)

Modified MP Cost: 46mp - 13mp = 33mp

Sentinel Cure Burst:

30s / 5.35s = 5 Cure III's with 3.25s remaining

MP Check: 5 casts * 33 = 165mp
425 - 165 = 260 (MP OK)

CE Check: 261.72 CE * 5 = 1308.6 CE

Extended Cures Set:

Remaining MP: 260mp
Enough for 7 more Cure III's with 29 MP left over.

7 casts * 5.35s = 37.45s
7 casts * 170.118 CE = 1191

Total CE: 2499 CE
Total Time So Far: 64.2s (30s sentinel - 3.25s "leftover" + 37.45s)

Time Left in a 5 min period:

Recap: We now have 29MP left over and are waiting for natural refresh to give us enough mp to cure macro. We now have 235.8s left in our 5min period. How many cure's can we fit into this time frame? First, let's see what type of mp pool we have in total.

236s / 3s per tick = 78 ticks
78 ticks * 7mp/tick = 546mp
(546mp + 29mp) / 46mp per Cure III = 12.5 Cure III's (Go ahead and round to 13).

13 casts * 170.118 CE = 2211.3 CE

Total CE: 4710

Misc. Add Ons:

Flash: So I missed Flash because I've been devoting all the MP pool to Cure III. This didn't occur to me until the math was half over. So instead of going back and redoing everything, I decided to simply throw that in for free. Let's say you a with a 450 MP pool and you are able to keep 25mp in constant reserve for Flash.

Flash CE: 180
Flash Recast: 45s
Flash Adjusted Recast: 22.5s
How many Flashes over the course of 5min: 13

13 * (180 * 1.3) = 3042 CE

Total 7752 CE.

Atonement: Technically, I've cram packed the previous test with spam cures and other bullshit, so it would be excessively hard to build TP, especially considering you'd probably be in your haste eq the entire time. But let's say you do get enough for one for 600 on a lvl ~90 (lower than kirin, higher than most mini-gods)

600 dam * 1.311 CE mod = 786.6

Total CE: 8538.6 CE

-----------------------------

Conclusion:

No, after 5 minutes of spamming Cures and Flashes, you would not have capped enmity. Keeping in mind this whole model is HEAVILY biased towards the PLD accumulating hate quickly (numerous times I rounded up or added in a feature) and never losing hate (no enmity loss for shadows down or any hits through shadows, etc were counted).

That being said, it is mechanically impossible to gain capped hate through the method outlined in this model in 5 minutes.

[AsDraBael]

Add in 3 cure IVs under sentinel, and a few more here and there.

It definitely is pretty easy with a co-tank to cap hate in sub 5 minutes. It takes a bit longer if you're solo since you're losing more shadows, etc. Its pretty easy to tell when I can do a cure 1 and pull hate off my cotank, or just cast Ichi. This shit isn't rocket science.

Also your numbers are off. My cure 3 does 202 hp, and my cure IV does 396. Your numbers also highlight why Ares and parade gorget become exponentially more important, since with your low-balled numbers, in 5 minutes when your hate is capped, you're usually running low on mp, since those 2 gears add up to 80 mp in a 4 minute period, which is almost 2 more cure 3s, or 1 more cure IV if I wait 2 more ticks. And haha at only 1 atonement in a 4 minute period while casting and it only being 600, and if hate isn't totally capped at 4 minutes, I get sentinel again at 4:10, for likely a sentinel atonement plus more cures and flashes during it. And you low-balled my mp by roughly 230 mp, giving me room to spam more.

If anything, you showed how, with a properly geared paladin and a normal support party, its actually easy to have capped hate in sub 5 minutes, since your low-balled numbers end off right under it, not taking into account a second sentinel if you're not quite there.

[Phlow]

Add in 3 cure IVs under sentinel, and a few more here and there.

It definitely is pretty easy with a co-tank to cap hate in sub 5 minutes. It takes a bit longer if you're solo since you're losing more shadows, etc. Its pretty easy to tell when I can do a cure 1 and pull hate off my cotank, or just cast Ichi. This shit isn't rocket science.

What's your hp -/+ macro? Just curious what other people are using these days.

Also your numbers are off. My cure 3 does 202 hp, and my cure IV does 396.

If you have hospiltar earring on. Minus 2enmity or 2% fast cast if so.

Your numbers also highlight why Ares and parade gorget become exponentially more important, since with your low-balled numbers, in 5 minutes when your hate is capped, you're usually running low on mp, since those 2 gears add up to 80 mp in a 4 minute period, which is almost 2 more cure 3s, or 1 more cure IV if I wait 2 more ticks.

Minus 7 enmity for harm's torque and Valor Surcoat.

And what does "low ballad numbers" mean? I used both ballad's in my example. What, you mean a relic BRD? I can't believe you are arguing over macro switches when you are in relic hnms.

And haha at only 1 atonement in a 4 minute period while casting and it only being 600, and if hate isn't totally capped at 4 minutes, I get sentinel again at 4:10, for likely a sentinel atonement plus more cures and flashes during it. And you low-balled my mp by roughly 230 mp, giving me room to spam more.

Did you not hear what was quoted?

ever heard of cure macros?
i can cap hate in ~5 minutes, given sentinel is up and i have mp.
i just spam my cure macro while sentinel is up and toss in a flash and i'm set quickly. pop a 600+ atonement after and you're nearly there.

I was refuting the given argument.

If anything, you showed how, with a properly geared paladin and a normal support party, its actually easy to have capped hate in sub 5 minutes, since your low-balled numbers end off right under it, not taking into account a second sentinel if you're not quite there.

Hey, if you can cast your blink spells AND your cure spells at the same time, please do us all a favor. I'm dying to know.

[wigglestyx]

What the fuck is wrong with you people? ...........

Choosing not to blink at this point is idiotic.

Why do you care if people blink or not, people are going to play this game how they like to play it (ie: AsDraBael wanting attack)

[Balbus]

Why do you care if people blink or not, people are going to play this game how they like to play it (ie: AsDraBael wanting attack)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ omg finally

[Eurlin]

I thought the idea of a forum was about finding out the most optimal way to do somthing as a group? Saying they play the game how they feel like playing in a forum to me is the most idiotic thing you can do. only because if it's how you play then it's not always the most optimal way to play it's a damn preference. people are trying to debate what's the best way to go upon fighting something.. not just what works

What works better is full blown gear swaps on every thing, you can't tell me you wouldn't preform better if you had macros for every little thing making that situation that much better/easier

[Phlow]

Why do you care if people blink or not, people are going to play this game how they like to play it (ie: AsDraBael wanting attack)

I'm not sure Kap is expressing himself as tolerantly as he should. The real basis of his argument is "If you're going to build efficiently for an inefficient way of playing, you're not playing at the top of your game."

So, the frustration is derived from someone saying "Yeah, I understand Fast Cast would be better for me, my character, and my party, but I'd rather play sub-par and say 'that's how I spend my 14.95'".

[pathwriter]

Forum dwellers care entirely too much about theorycrafting the perfect method, but the game is still plenty manageable without having to be permanently invisible. I'm personally able to keep someone healed who blinks constantly, but I also know what I'm doing (I've been lazy and have yet to swap over to <stpt>, too, still using <stpc>). This whole concern about, "You must do it this way or you're not being efficient enough!" is nonsense. The same people who say that are also the ones who say that there is no challenge left in this game (and then promptly wipe to Dark Ixion).

[FurionStormRage]

<stpt> and <stal> took away any reason to bitch about blinking tanks.

The people at this point who choose not to blink or allow blinking tanks are either so set in their ways that nothing is going to change that (Asdrabael), or lazy and living in the past.

Either way, not my LS so not my problem