[justkarmel]

What do you guys think? With RDM's new JA, can a RDM beat a DRG/SAM with a specific sub? what are the chances?

RDM have joytoy, dusk hands and feet, walhara turban for haste gear. Im thinking that a RDM can build TP fast, nuke, and have stoneskin/Phalanx on.

Can a DRG over power through the stoneskin and phalanx and make it a quick fight? DRG subbing WHM will be a tougher fight?

Who has a better chance of winning?

[Tainted]

fail torll

[Stonedmage]

ur just as garbage tainted

[justkarmel]

WTF? Im asking for advise and this what i get??

w/e.....

[babyboy]

Well idk when i use to play i could 1v1 rdms easily on my drg....idk how it is now though

[TenPounds]

NInJa wIN! alLLLLLL

{fact} /hurray for chImiChanGAs

[Angel of Enders]

10 page thread inc

[Symbios]

ur just as garbage tainted

Just like your English.

Don't take that too serious, couldn't help myself. =P

[Darkin#1]

RDM's loose to DRGs? since when lol?

[Jacker]

if the drg can quickly do 1500+ dmg without changing gear, while interrupting the rdm's spell casts, then the drg stands a chance. give the rdm time to buff or cripple the drg then it's all over.

[Aeonknight]

I'm going to go with... it's a toss up.

I've seen RDM's tank 3 or 4 people, and by same token i've seen RDM's lose to DNC's 1v1.

If the RDM knows what he's doing it's scaled in his favor. But they're hardly unbeatable.


My opinion: if a RDM tries to melee any real DD job it's asking for an ass kicking.

[SenseiShotokan]

My opinion: if a RDM tries to melee any real DD job it's asking for an ass kicking.

I hope you have RDM, if not I'll tell you that you are wrong 100%. Watch out those RDM/PLD and RDM/BLU with physical dmg -% gears, I can take 4 DD with it, melee!. I also love fighting those SAM and DRK, and show them that Gekko and Guillotine is not silencing me. (Not going to argue if RDM can lose in ballista or not, cause this is a stupid question, it all depend of the player skills. But what you said about "melee" a DD, is completely false, I can guarantee you that)

[justkarmel]

I hope you have RDM, if not I'll tell you that you are wrong 100%. Watch out those RDM/PLD and RDM/BLU with physical dmg -% gears, I can take 4 DD with it, melee!. I also love fighting those SAM and DRK, and show them that Gekko and Guillotine is not silencing me. (Not going to argue if RDM can lose in ballista or not, cause this is a stupid question, it all depend of the player skills. But what you said about "melee" a DD, is completely false, I can guarantee you that)

Thats what i was thinking; a RDM sub BLU or PLD can easily have a 500+ def. Also I see RDM Kiting (if its even possible in PvP) if so, then the DRG will lose if he cant get to the RDM. RDM can sleep and gravity to prevent any DD from reaching them. Im thinking 1v1 by the way.

[Aeonknight]

I hope you have RDM, if not I'll tell you that you are wrong 100%. Watch out those RDM/PLD and RDM/BLU with physical dmg -% gears, I can take 4 DD with it, melee!. I also love fighting those SAM and DRK, and show them that Gekko and Guillotine is not silencing me. (Not going to argue if RDM can lose in ballista or not, cause this is a stupid question, it all depend of the player skills. But what you said about "melee" a DD, is completely false, I can guarantee you that)

Those RDM that are using physical -% gears are also not using an earth staff, unless they want to splinter their victim to death. Now while a RDM is still a tough nut to crack, that stoneskin isn't going to last forever. it's how the melee reacts after it drops that's going to determine if they stand a chance or not.

You're absolutely right about silence not sticking. Now bear in mind that if the melee is subbing RDM themselves (DRG/RDM or DRK/RDM for examples) it goes both ways. Toss in some dispels and see what happens. A good RDM will adapt, while a bad RDM won't get another spell off till his HP hits 0.

Hence the disclaimer at the start of my post: it's a toss up really.

and fyi, if you try and melee a PLD/RDM with atonement... yea you really are begging for death. But I guess we're not "real" DD's lol

quick edit for karmel:
The OP, that being your OP btw, mentions if the RDM melee's. If they do their usual kite or nuke strategies then it's pretty obvious which one's going down. The scenario was a RDM going toe to toe, using composure, with DRG specifically. Seeing how lackluster melee RDM is in general...... yea.

[Angel of Enders]

Just like your English.

Don't take that too serious, couldn't help myself. =P

Holy crap Kincard, what's up?

It's Mizrahi from way long ago. >BO

[SenseiShotokan]

Those RDM that are using physical -% gears are also not using an earth staff, unless they want to splinter their victim to death. Now while a RDM is still a tough nut to crack, that stoneskin isn't going to last forever. it's how the melee reacts after it drops that's going to determine if they stand a chance or not.

You're absolutely right about silence not sticking. Now bear in mind that if the melee is subbing RDM themselves (DRG/RDM or DRK/RDM for examples) it goes both ways. Toss in some dispels and see what happens. A good RDM will adapt, while a bad RDM won't get another spell off till his HP hits 0.

Hence the disclaimer at the start of my post: it's a toss up really.

and fyi, if you try and melee a PLD/RDM with atonement... yea you really are begging for death. But I guess we're not "real" DD's lol

quick edit for karmel:
The OP, that being your OP btw, mentions if the RDM melee's. If they do their usual kite or nuke strategies then it's pretty obvious which one's going down. The scenario was a RDM going toe to toe, using composure, with DRG specifically. Seeing how lackluster melee RDM is in general...... yea.

Oh well idk what kind of RDM you saw fighting but it looks like I'm pretty different. All I can tell you is I did fought PLD/RDM and DRK/RDM many times, and they will not resist my silence even by subbing rdm and casting baraero + barsilence, they will need a lot of luck to resist. I doubt the DD out there will sub RDM to resist a rdm silence anyway. Unless that rdm enfeeb suck, you will not resist. And I'm not even dispelling DD/RDM, waste of time and mp, I just silence it.
PLD/RDM with atonement? If I can take 4 DD about 2 SAM's and 2 DRK, and able to put back stoneskin without getting interrupted, I doubt a PLD/RDM with atonement is more dangerous. RDM/BLU I have 687 defense(this is my cap for now), and spell interruption rate down gears + merits, 4DD have hard time to interrupt me. I don't need earth staff, I use genbus's umbra and jelly ring. But I do not underestimate any job in ballista.
Some people try to handicap the rdm before a 1vs1, like no silence no sleep. If you kill a rdm by asking him to not use his own skills, that is good for you, but you did not killed a Red Mage. I'm not saying rdm is unbeatable. But I'm hard to beat even when my stoneskin drop. Now the differences are coming from wich one have more experiences.
(Let's not start a discussion about "ballista strategy", we'll never finish. Because if I say, I'll silence you, you can easily reply: oh I'll sub RDM to resist. Then I'll reply: Oh but I'll put that gear,.. and so on . The real thing is on the battlefield. The OP question is not a good question, because it depend of the players experiences in ballista. There is no real answer to who would win between rdm and drg. But what I can tell you is, RDM meleeing a DD is easy, nothing dangerous there like you tried to pretend. By the way, Shield is better than staff most of the times.)

[Tainted]

PLD/RDM atonement isn't that big of a deal for RDM in terms of 1v1. The PLD has to get TP first, which with out the help of Shield Mastery (Why would RDM be meleeing PLD?) is going to be fairly difficult. PLD resist against RDM is pretty much banking on Fealty, which any half decent RDM should be able to straight tank a PLD easily until it wears and they can land silence. That's with the PLD spamming dispel, which ultimately will slow down his TP gain as well, making atonement a non-factor since they probably won't have it before the RDM can silence and dispel.

OP Scenario is dumb, there is no reason for a RDM to try and melee a DRG/SAM. On top of that, why wear dusk? All the RDM has to do is land shield bash (PLD is really the only sub worth using against DRG) and land sleep...Yeah, that combo that takes roughly 3 seconds to complete ends the fight. A DRG can't do anything at that point except get nuked down.

687 DEF is nothing, only reason RDM can tank is because of phalanx. If DEF really meant the ability to tank 4 DDs with out a worry then well geared MNK/BLU would be even better.

WS silence is a joke to resist with baraero let alone barsilence.

[Aeonknight]

PLD/RDM atonement isn't that big of a deal for RDM in terms of 1v1. The PLD has to get TP first, which with out the help of Shield Mastery (Why would RDM be meleeing PLD?) is going to be fairly difficult. PLD resist against RDM is pretty much banking on Fealty, which any half decent RDM should be able to straight tank a PLD easily until it wears and they can land silence. That's with the PLD spamming dispel, which ultimately will slow down his TP gain as well, making atonement a non-factor since they probably won't have it before the RDM can silence and dispel.

OP Scenario is dumb, there is no reason for a RDM to try and melee a DRG/SAM. On top of that, why wear dusk? All the RDM has to do is land shield bash (PLD is really the only sub worth using against DRG) and land sleep...Yeah, that combo that takes roughly 3 seconds to complete ends the fight. A DRG can't do anything at that point except get nuked down.

687 DEF is nothing, only reason RDM can tank is because of phalanx. If DEF really meant the ability to tank 4 DDs with out a worry then well geared MNK/BLU would be even better.

WS silence is a joke to resist with baraero let alone barsilence.

Exactly. If a RDM wants to melee a PLD they're going to eat a hefty atonement in the face, whether it be from TP gained after dispelling stoneskin or TP fed to them from shield mastery. If they play their job properly (DoT's, nukes, drains/aspir, kiting) then it becomes much harder. But this is something we've already seen, it's nothing new. And most importantly: Composure does not change a thing. lolmeleeRDM is still lolmeleeRDM.

and like Tainted said, I wouldn't bank on RDM/BLU against a DRG specifically. Remember a little thing called Angon?
let me give an example:
RDM/BLU gets to full buff, so DRG gets to meditate and wait for timer.

Fight starts, RDM starts meleeing the DRG/SAM.
I hope the RDM is smart enough to dispel seigan at this point:
Angon (there goes cocoon. you go from a 50% defense bonus to -50%)
Pop a Wyvern, Deep Breathing, Drakesbane.

Unless you're packing full darksteel with all the trimmings, chances are your stoneskin is down after Drakesbane. Just in time for that deep breathing Wyvern breath (which iirc, hurts like a bitch. Haven't fought a DRG in awhile though.) And he still has his jumps.

On the flipside though, like tainted states, RDM/PLD: sentinel will prevent you from gettin quickly ganked by angon. Can't guarentee it'll save you next time he gets TP though.

I could go ahead and post about 7 different video's of various jobs beating RDM, but I think we're all on the same page. It can be done, but it's a hell of a lot less efficient than what you're used to. Composure didn't change a thing.

[Tainted]

An unbuffed RDM might take an additional 350-400 damage from a Deep Breathing wyvern. I'm not entirely sure if natural MDEF or Shell is effective against wyvern breath since well, the Wyvern breath is enhanced by MATK (That is what Deep Breathing is, MATK bonus) or if the RDM would need -Breath %. But yeah it hurts.

But this should never be an issue and is why melee RDM is dumb. A decently geared RDM (You don't need to gear for defensive 1v1 as /PLD) should be able to kill the average DRG/SAM in about 3 nukes + Bio II. I don't get why the RDM would waste a 30 second sure thing to try and melee and possibly lose. If they start out with prebuffs then there is absolutely no excuse at all for the RDM to try and melee.

[SenseiShotokan]

687 DEF is nothing, only reason RDM can tank is because of phalanx. If DEF really meant the ability to tank 4 DDs with out a worry then well geared MNK/BLU would be even better.

You are right. Actually yes when I talked about my def I didn't mean phalanx is not important, actually it's my prefered tool:D. I just don't wanted to enter too much in the "ballista strategy" details, cause we'll never finish. But yes when I tank 4 DD, phalanx and DEF are my tools. But no, phalanx is not the only thing that will help you if your physical defense is weak. You will need high DEF, phalanx and spell interruption rate down to do that. RDM/PLD with shield mastery and spell interruption rate down is even harder to interrupt when he cast, because when he block with shield there is no interruption. High def, strong phalanx and spell interruption rate down are the keys to take out many DD's. Also with composure RDM buffs can stay even longer. Regen for example is now 3.75min, that is making rdm even harder to take down considering that normal dmg hit me for 1-30 when I sub blu or pld(normal damage, not critical hit or ws). So I'll say thank you SE for this:D.
And yes the OP thread should not even be there, ballista is something that happen on the battlefield imo, so even if we make 10 pages about rdm vs other jobs, it's not going to bring anything new or constructive. So, bye bye.

Exactly. If a RDM wants to melee a PLD they're going to eat a hefty atonement in the face, whether it be from TP gained after dispelling stoneskin or TP fed to them from shield mastery.

Actually you miss what he said. When he said "(Why would RDM be meleeing PLD?)"? he meant that it's better to stay back and nuke it, because pld resist physical dmg more. He did not said that PLD atonement is dangerous for rdm. Lol I'm always laughing when you bring that, if you gonna wipe vs a pld cause of atonement, I'm asking myself what kind of rdm you have, or what kind of rdm you saw fighting. Atonement is not a big deal against RDM. I want you to explain please, whats the big deal with atonement dmg, when rdm can take out real dd with more dangerous ws.