[Aledacia]

LV56COR/PLD trying to solo Bark Spider. >.>

Wish my LS member hadn't pointed that one out to me.

[Ezekial]

COR/BRD is pretty fail imo used to see it all the time.

[Arkley]

COR/BRD is awesome for manaburn parties. In fact, COR/BRD is hands down the best support available for BLM or SMN parties. It can be pretty useful around level 50~60ish in regular parties too if the situation's right for it. Maybe you ought to know what you're talking about before you make an assertion like that?

[hideo]

Actually I can see COR/PLD working, to a point. I would do it, I thought about doing it. PLD is lvl 6 though >.>


And Im more concern abour lvln WAR and NIN and BLM to 37 to worry about a Subjob I may not use as often.

[Daiiawn_]

COR/BRD is awesome for manaburn parties. In fact, COR/BRD is hands down the best support available for BLM or SMN parties. It can be pretty useful around level 50~60ish in regular parties too if the situation's right for it. Maybe you ought to know what you're talking about before you make an assertion like that?

^ its also extremely useful at many endgame events where the cor shouldnt be getting hit and the blms (or tanks) could use that extra bit of mp

[ArwynOfOdin]

COR/BRD is awesome for manaburn parties. In fact, COR/BRD is hands down the best support available for BLM or SMN parties. It can be pretty useful around level 50~60ish in regular parties too if the situation's right for it. Maybe you ought to know what you're talking about before you make an assertion like that?

In all fairness, the example you used above is extremely rare. I've done a manaburn PT once in my entire COR career, and I found a replacement within 20 minutes because it was so awful. In end game parties where I've been the COR supporting BLM/SMNs, I'm /whm because I think a pool of 500+ MP with /whm capabilities is far more effective in the long run than a single tick of MP, especially since evoker's roll itself isn't consistent. Since the refresh effect itself is always dynamic anyway, mages end up making due with w/e they have at any given moment. Its sort of like RDM AF2 hat. Does it help? Sure. Is it needed for RDMs to get the job done? Of course not. However, more importantly to the point I'm getting at, any curing the COR could do, (which can be a lot with a good MP pool) is having to be made up for by other mages in the alliance spending MP, so that extra 1 tick is being wasted anyway on curing that the COR could be doing. And when other jobs are busy curing other players, utilizing the COR to cure the mages, or even tanks when times get rough, rather than just having him stand there, is arguably the far more effective option in support PTs then COR/BRD.

As for using it in the 50-60s, I really can't imagine a situation where an extra tick of mp would be worth the significant damage loss associated with losing a DD sub on COR, or even a mage sub. Even if there was one, again, its situational enough that its barely worth mentioning, simply because one could find a use for a lot of sub jobs at least somewhere in the game at some point.

So really, in general, I think Ezekial's statement was quite justified.

[Kandi_]

Justified? not rly.

if its situational, ist still situational.

and not so much in exp PTs 50-60, but in Lv caps its been great. but once again situational, as /WHM is still good in "more" situational moments.

as for /PLD, how so at Lv56? maybe when they get auto refresh, but even then, why not /WHM or /RDM until then?
maybe im a sucker for larger MP pool when soloing.

[ArwynOfOdin]

Justified? not rly.

if its situational, ist still situational.

and not so much in exp PTs 50-60, but in Lv caps its been great. but once again situational, as /WHM is still good in "more" situational moments.

as for /PLD, how so at Lv56? maybe when they get auto refresh, but even then, why not /WHM or /RDM until then?
maybe im a sucker for larger MP pool when soloing.

Just about everything is arguably situational. That doesn't address the OP's original question. The OP said the WORST, so that would imply the LEAST useful. I think calling out /brd is pretty justified, since at the moment, the only main use is manaburn PTs, which, no one does, because the exp not as effective as the every day camps like Nyzul. Hell, even /pld has more use than /brd. Take any kited fight in a group setting where the COR wants to be the main kiter. Having flash and sentinel along with the damage capabilities from QD would pretty much solidify the hate on the COR.

Find me a situation where /brd trumps all other subs outside manaburn PTs. To be fair, I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just pretty hard-pressed in finding any.

[Kandi_]

true enough, worst hes seen was probably /BRD.

but sentinel and flash arnt available to COR at 56 (not saying u said that) so im going to still say its not great (better than other SJs tho)

well with the "worst ive seen" will be altered to a COR/WHM (/WHM is good) who was told to sub RNG for the DMG since we lacked it. he didnt have /RNG or any SJ for DDing, just Def gear. didnt have MP gear either. just sat back rolling, thats it, not even a cure.

but i pretty much only see /whm /nin and /rng so i havnt "actually" seen a SJ problem, other than what i said.

[Arkley]

So really, in general, I think Ezekial's statement was quite justified.

Er, no, it wasn't. COR/BRD is the best support available for two different kinds of parties, BLM & SMN. It's also the best combination a COR can get for supporting a tank party. Manaburns might not be terribly common anymore, but they still happen, and BLM/SMN parties are still common at endgame.

so that extra 1 tick is being wasted anyway on curing that the COR could be doing.

Are you fucking retarded? You were almost making an arguable point until this too, it was horribly dissapointing to stumble across. You write about how /BRD for COR is unecessary, slightly helpful, but ultimately unneeded...and then you go on to talk about cures from a COR/mage? Cures from COR/mage in endgame events are the very freaking definition of "kinda helpful but unneeded". It's like you just said "Cars are unecessary, you should get a car instead".

I promise you, a COR not curing isn't going to result in BLMs suddenly having to spam cures or much, if any more MP being spent.

Hey, some things you might want to know about your big 500mp pool. Where d'you think it all goes when you macro into QD gear? Do you have Evoker's roll on yourself at all times?

COR/WHM is not as useful as you seem to think it is. Judging by the message you wrote I'd wager you haven't even used it at a serious event. Even when extra cures are nice, /RDM is still better unless you need -nas or Erase, and /BRD is often better than that unless you're going to get good consistant numbers from QD.

As for using it in the 50-60s, I really can't imagine a situation where an extra tick of mp would be worth the significant damage loss associated with losing a DD sub on COR, or even a mage sub. Even if there was one, again, its situational enough that its barely worth mentioning, simply because one could find a use for a lot of sub jobs at least somewhere in the game at some point.

But that's the thing. A lot of people (most noticeably the ones that don't know wtf they're talking about) seem to think BRD mid level is "losing a lot of DD potential for 1/tick". It isn't. You lose very little DD potential in terms of raw statistics, you lose the offhand weapon from /NIN or ACC bonus & the SJ specific gear from /RNG. Barrage isn't available pre-60. In return you gain an extra 1/tick for the mage (useful especially if you're the only source of Refresh) and a DD buff for the rest of the party, and yourself - which will probably result in more damage dealt overall by the party as a whole than you would have added with the relatively small bonuses from /NIN or /RNG at that level.

So, let's list the situations where /BRD trumps other subs for COR:

Manaburn parties
Endgame BLM/SMN parties (<- note that this one is situational in itself though, for HNMs that don't resist QD like crazy /RDM could be better (and better than /WHM too))
SMN parties
Mid-level exp parties
Tank parties

There are multiple situations in which /BRD is the best choice and none of them are particularly uncommon. Manaburns aren't as common as they used to be, but they still happen. There is no way in hell it's justified to say that /BRD is fail or that it's the worst SJ for COR. I'd even go as far as to say that if you do a lot of different endgame events as a career COR it's something you should have levelled.

[ArwynOfOdin]

Are you fucking retarded? You were almost making an arguable point until this too, it was horribly dissapointing to stumble across. You write about how /BRD for COR is unecessary, slightly helpful, but ultimately unneeded...and then you go on to talk about cures from a COR/mage? Cures from COR/mage in endgame events are the very freaking definition of "kinda helpful but unneeded". It's like you just said "Cars are unecessary, you should get a car instead".

You know, I've read your posts before and watched you act like an ass on this forum, and up till now, I haven't said a word because you haven't said anything offensive to me personally, but I guess now is as good a time as ever to share my personal opinion of you Arkley, one that I'm sure others share as well. You'll argue a point into the ground (while being completely and utterly disrespect to the other person), simply because your elementary ego can't handle being wrong, or even remotely adjusted, rather then actually participate in an enlightening and thought-provoking discussion. This is why you come across on this forum like a childish, pretentious, fundamentally insecure asshole. In all seriousness, while I really don't know you beyond your ridiculous behavior on this forum, maybe that's just what you are.

Lets get this over with. Again, the OP said 'WORST' implying the least useful subs. Someone stated /brd, and while they were being a little harsh in how they brought up /brd, I felt overall, it was at least somewhat justified, and at the very least, certainly didn't merit the nasty response you gave:

Maybe you ought to know what you're talking about before you make an assertion like that?

Based on the above comment, you're basically implying that not ONLY is /brd very useful, but its so useful that any experienced COR would know and agree with this (assuming of course an experienced COR would 'know what they're talking about.')

You gave the following examples as a way of rebutting my argument:

Manaburn parties
Endgame BLM/SMN parties (<- note that this one is situational in itself though, for HNMs that don't resist QD like crazy /RDM could be better (and better than /WHM too))
SMN parties
Mid-level exp parties
Tank parties

In your attempt to magnify your argument, you were a little redundant. So let me re-write your list.

BLM/SMN parties
Endgame parties (BLM/SMN or tank)
EXP parties

Lets start with BLM/SMN parties:

First of all, who does these? Are these so popular again that it merits being continually brought up and repeated? Well, in any event, I already acknowledged that /brd would be ideal in this sort of an exp PT. But I also went on to point out that due to its rarity, its not worth mentioning because you could find rare uses for a LOT of sub jobs. The point here is - which are LEAST useful in the grand scheme of things? Due to BLM/SMN parties being so rare ( and the latter being practically non-existent last time I checked ), the usefulness of /brd ranks low compared to other subs. Its like me trying to argue that /pld is great for COR because its so good in kited fights where the COR is main kiter. Would it be good in that situation? Of course. Does the situation happen often enough that it merits NOT ranking /pld as one of the least useful subs for COR? Of course not.

Endgame parties (BLM/SMN or tank):

Honestly, do your LSs have you actually take COR/BRD to end game events? This feels an awful lot like one of your other arguments I've read by you where it honestly seems like you're only interested in being right so you're searching for something, rather then using valid rebuttals. Anyway, lets break down the differences between the more commonly used subs in BLM/SMN end game parties.

/whm: A quick tangent to answer your question, where does my MP go when I'm QDing? Well, Arkely, I'm not always using QD! Any lowman end game event where extra support is absolutely needed including na's and erase, I simply don't use QD gear! If extra support isn't necessary, then I'm free to use my QD gear, but still have the ability to emergency cure, na, erase, and even raise members. If the latter isn't needed, then I'm free to /rdm for the boosted QDs.

/rdm: as above, offers curing except with a boosted QD.

So it comes down to the following choices - 1 mp refresh (40 MP every 2 minutes), OR cures w/ either full support capabilities or boosted QD. Now just to get an idea here, I'm no SMN, but 40 MP will last a SMN what? 15 seconds maybe with an avatar out? And 40 MP every 2 minutes is an extra nuke every 10 mins for a BLM? Ok, well to be fair, that seems to have some use. Hey, extra MP is extra MP, even if it is unnecessary. But the real question is - are these slight increases in damage output worth rendering a COR dead in the water outside his buffs? Well, I think that is best left answered by the end game community as a whole, since they've actually had the chance to collectively discern which is more efficient for them in the long run. But of course, I'm sure you'll stand by your COR/BRD in BLM/SMN end game parties. So, by all means Arkley, take your COR/BRD to end game events. But the next time a battle starts to go down the crapper for w/e reason, and you can't cure, you can't raise, you can't do anything except stand there and pick your butt, ask yourself - was that unnecessary and unnoticeable extra 1 tick of mp really worth it?

As for the COR/BRD in tank PTs... Again, people do this? I'm not even going to argue this one because the mere idea of a completely unbuffed, defenseless COR running in to ballad tanks every two minutes for the sake of 1 tick of mp is so inefficient in the grand scheme of things, it really seems silly. The damage the COR would be taking in the long run alone would be offsetting w/e extra MP he was providing to the RDM and/or WHM. And please don't pull the "Oh, but a good COR could time it perfectly when he runs in everytime!" Sounds great on paper, but its one of those things that always fails in practice. In general, the COR would be getting rocked enough that it wouldn't be worth it in the long run.

EXP parties:

Wait, so we're talking pre-60? Keep in mind, a COR/BRD wouldn't even get ballad until level 50. So that leaves 10 levels at best based on your argument. I'm guessing it takes maybe 1-2 weeks to get from 50 to 60 for the average player (one day for the hardcore gamer). Assuming your argument that COR/BRD WAS the best choice ( or even a good choice ) during those levels, you honestly felt that brief moment in a COR's life is worth using as an argument that /brd is NOT among one of the least useful subs in the game in general? Again, this is assuming that COR/BRD was most effective from 50-60, which I don't believe it is. First of all, unless your mage is going bone dry on MP, COR/BRD is not necessary at all, and hence, any extra boosts from a different sub would be more efficient. Second of all, if your mage is going bone dry on MP during an exp PT, you have bigger things to worry about then needing a COR/BRD. Either way, that window is so brief in a COR's life, its silly to use it as an argument.

So in conclusion, yes - /brd does have uses, particularly when paired with groups of SMNs and BLMs, but like a lot of subs (/pld for kiting, /drk for stun, /bst for soloing), merely having uses SOMEWHERE in the game does not merit /brd being deemed a good choice for the job in general. When it comes down to the original question at hand - is it among the least useful subs? Yes. The versatility associated with a COR/mage, particularly in battles where things are going south, is clearly more effective than a dead in the water, extra 1 mp/tick providing COR that WILL go unnoticed, especially when evoker's roll is dynamic anyway. And the end game community clearly agrees, because last time I checked, COR/BRD was not being used at the majority (if any) end game events.

So before you lose your cool Arkley because someone actually doesn't agree with you, try to pull yourself together and offer your rebuttal free of juvenile insults.

[Blueyes]

Hm... It seems a dispute has erupted. I didn't have high hopes for this topic to begin with.

Um.. I believe the term people use is, "shit is situational?" Whm, Sch, Rdm, Blu, and Brd are the basic alternatives for situations where you can't effectively engage the enemy. Each available sub has it's own positive and negative points, but are generally equal in terms of effectiveness given the situation calls for.

/Whm - Whm excels at status removal and reducing magical damage sustained with -bar spells, though to a lesser degree when compared to a full Whm main. Provides a variety of cures and the ability to raise and reraise.

/Sch - Sch is top of the game for personal MP management, providing Sublimation and the ability to cast half cost cures or regens. Sch also includes raise and reraise spells and can remove some status alignments through light arts. Can also potentially be used for sleep or dispel while under dark arts.

/Rdm - While Rdm lacks status removal spell, it can still provide a degree of curing power. The main attracting that this sub provides is its magic att. bonus trait, allowing you to effectively aid your party's overall damage while still providing curing support.

/Blu - Like Rdm, this sub can also provide magic att. bonus trait while still allowing you to cure party members. While it does have a limited selection of cure spells, it does provide an AoE cure spell, something /Rdm does not have access to.

/Brd - Brd is unique in that it won't provide you with MP or curing spells, but can still support the party's longevity or even potentially enhance your party's damage output. Mage's ballad provides additional MP for the mages to help them sustain MP for cures or other spells. Additionally, Army's peon can provide a 3 hp regen for your front line jobs. If peon is not needed, minuet or madrigal can be used to tone your party member's strengths.

In my personal opinion... besides situations where status removals are critically important, I find /Whm to be the weakest of the jobs listed. If you're not needed for status removals but will be relied on for backup healing support, /Sch wins hands down. /Rdm and /Blu are extremely useful solely for the sake of adding magic att. bonus trait for Quick Draw. Cures are just an added bonus. Best used for situations where the Corsair isn't being heavily relied on for healing support. /Brd is a great utility sub job, able to provide additional refresh and cost free regen or even toning the party's attack/accuracy. The level utility of /Brd can provide is comparable to /Sch. Not as much direct support, but able to "fine tune" the party.

[Arkley]

You know, I've read your posts before and watched you act like an ass on this forum, and up till now, I haven't said a word because you haven't said anything offensive to me personally, but I guess now is as good a time as ever to share my personal opinion of you Arkley, one that I'm sure others share as well. You'll argue a point into the ground (while being completely and utterly disrespect to the other person), simply because your elementary ego can't handle being wrong, or even remotely adjusted, rather then actually participate in an enlightening and thought-provoking discussion. This is why you come across on this forum like a childish, pretentious, fundamentally insecure asshole. In all seriousness, while I really don't know you beyond your ridiculous behavior on this forum, maybe that's just what you are.

Ohoho, oh no, sunshine, did I upset you? Did my lack of tolerance for the imbeciles that post here, yourself included, bother you just a little? Wether my ego won't allow me to be wrong or not is completely irrelevent given the fact that I'm entirely right, and I'm afraid I'm just going to have to disregard your truly laughable attempts at Dr. Phillery in this post with the same belittling, eye-rolling "yawn" that each and every one of your posts has inspired so far.


As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to quote your padded-with-nonsense paragraphs and respond to them piece by piece, because it's all a bunch of desperate "what ifs" and "maybes", not unlike the initial nay-sayer response to NIN tanking (but wat if u get diaga'd after u cats ni?????????)

Your entire post is based around trying to say that /BRD isn't useful and that your defense of a post accusing it of being the worst SJ for COR was justified (and that said initial post was justified) when the fact of the matter is BRD is not only the best SJ for COR in certain situations, but it is the best job/subjob combination out of any of the jobs for those situations.

Now let's compare that to COR/BLM, which is only "useful" for e-peen QD screenshots, and then combinations like COR/SMN, COR/THF...oh yeah sunshine, that post was totally justified. Did you even think, at all, before you posted? Or did you just think "I'll be a contrary twat and then get my panties in a twist when someone shits all over me for it"?

/BRD is certainly not among the least useful subjobs because in several situations it is the best available.

The damage the COR would be taking in the long run alone would be offsetting w/e extra MP he was providing to the RDM and/or WHM. And please don't pull the "Oh, but a good COR could time it perfectly when he runs in everytime!" Sounds great on paper, but its one of those things that always fails in practice. In general, the COR would be getting rocked enough that it wouldn't be worth it in the long run.

My god, you're an idiot. COR/BRD is used in tank parties for MP when there's only one BRD available. Letting the COR take care of MP frees up both song spots from the other BRD for marches. If the tanks get low on MP, the BRD can switch to one Ballad for a little while and have the other Ballad taken care of by the COR. The other roll spot is used for Hunter's Roll, if you're using Excal/Atonement PLDs. As for the COR "getting rocked", have you ever even tried this? 'Cause I've played both COR and BRD in a tank party in numerous endgame situations and I can count the number of times I've taken damage while running up to buff the tanks on one hand. Maybe you're a load of shit at doing it, but I'm pretty damn awesome, thanks very much.

Just let me offer you a bit of advice; just because you don't know how something works, just because you don't understand how it could work, doesn't mean it doesn't work, and it certainly doesn't mean you should come here and start waving around feeble arguments about why it's not optimal, especially if you're going to try to argue with someone who knows what they're doing.

Besides, if I remember correctly, you were the only other guy on the pro-Winning Streak team besides Carri, weren't you? Not a good start there sweetheart. On both counts; supporting Carri and supporting Winning Streak.

[Kilhart]

FUCK I'M SURROUNDED BY WALLS OF TEXT LET ME OUT

[ArwynOfOdin]

Do you like, not read stuff? In all honesty, its amazing how your brain twists the other persons actual opinion around to make a more black/white argument. Actually, its not amazing, its pathetic and desperate. Unfortunately, we have documentation here proving you talk out of your ass.

Your entire post is based around trying to say that /BRD isn't useful and that your defense of a post accusing it of being the worst SJ for COR was justified (and that said initial post was justified)

My entire post is based around me saying /brd isn't useful? Please quote me, and at least attempt to stop talking out of your ass. I believe I actually said the following, first concerning the non-existent BLM/SMN parties...

Well, in any event, I already acknowledged that /brd would be ideal in this sort of an exp PT.

And then later, I said this concerning BLM/SMN end game parties...

Ok, well to be fair, that seems to have some use. Hey, extra MP is extra MP.

And obviously, you didn't read my main argument, the one you continue to fail to directly respond to. No ones debating that /brd DOES have use, and is certainly NOT one of the worst. However, the REAL argument here (since you prefer to make up your own in your sad attempts at simply being 'right') is that even with its situational uses, it still ranks lower compared to the more commonly used sub jobs. I'll repeat, so try not to miss it this time!

...the usefulness of /brd ranks low compared to other subs. Its like me trying to argue that /pld is great for COR because its so good in kited fights where the COR is main kiter. Would it be good in that situation? Of course. Does the situation happen often enough that it merits NOT ranking /pld as one of the least useful subs for COR? Of course not.

Does this mean /pld is a great sub job for COR too? Or /drk when extra stuns are needed? Based on your OWN example, I'd say needing a COR/BRD in a tank PT because you're missing a necessary refresh is about as rare as needing a COR/PLD for main kiting, or COR/DRK for an extra stun (Byakko, Cerb). Does it happen? Ok, sure. But guess what? Having rare situational uses does not rank a sub job above the commonly used ones like /rng, /nin, /war, /whm, /rdm, etc. Seriously, try to argue that its going to see more action then any of those listed. Obviously, it ranks higher then complete duds like /THF (which ironically, even that one I've used for sacing in RvB). But in the long run, its not going to see even close to as much action as the mainstream subs, and rightly so, because the situational uses it has are rare, like a lot of the sub jobs in the game. Does it has some use? Sure, but so do a lot of sub jobs that people rarely use. So yes, its fair to say, at the very least, its among (even if it ranks higher in this grouping) the least useful sub jobs, because its necessity is rare.

And might I also mention that when the poster said /brd was pretty fail, I at some point stated the following...

Someone stated /brd, and while they were being a little harsh in how they brought up /brd...

So again, this reemphasizes how I was NOT condemning /brd, but merely point out that among the sub jobs COR uses, its among the least used, and hence, at the very least, the poster did not deserve the nasty response you gave. This also shows you much like you to talk out of your ass since most of what you claim I say/feel is bullshit.

And the whole winning streak topic... that's a pretty weak attempt at discrediting my character. Whats wrong? You're that incapable of addressing my actual points that you need to pull crap like that out of your ass? As I recall, I spent my time in that topic trying to figure out the advantages and disadvantages to all possible merit combos, rather then simply dismissing Winning Streak because its 'lazy'. And I believe I ended my posts in that topic with the following, which you obviously failed to remember/mention in your attempt to claim I'm a winning streak advocate.

Honestly, 5/5 PR and 5/5 Fold is what I'm most currently interested in, but I'm still not sure. I rarely bother with Random Deal, so I'd also like to hear more arguments for and against doing away with 1/5 Loaded Deck for a full 5/5 Fold.

You like to talk out of your ass Arkley, and twist whatever you can in an attempt to further fluff your already bloated arguments. And trust me, I'm not going Dr. Phil on you, because unlike me, Dr. Phil actually gives a shit about the people he so easily calls out on their psychological profiles.

[Kilhart]

You two should box.

[Marcicus]

What Kilhart said, someone give me a cliffnotes version of this shit please.

[Robert Redford]

Arkley, I've watched you transform from being one of the corsair community's most helpful and knowledgeable players to someone who completely flips a lid the first time someone says something you disagree with. Instead of simply expressing a counterpoint to Arwyn's opinion and actually contributing something to the discussion, you immediately popped a blood vessel and turned it into a flame war, calling him "fucking retarded" before launching into a condescending tirade of absolutely no value, which appears to be becoming a trend for you. So congratulations, I guess. You win the Internet tough guy award.

[Marcicus]

so ITT Arkley e-thuggin? or am i missing something here

[Kilhart]

someone give me a cliffnotes version of this shit please.

Aledacia: Worst COR/sub Combos you've seen? LV56COR/PLD trying to solo Bark Spider. >.> Wish my LS member hadn't pointed that one out to me.
Arkley: i herd u ben talkn 2 mai gurl
ArwynOfOdin: wat
Arkley: dont wat me
ArwynOfOdin: wut if i wuz
Arkley: u best stop frontin
ArwynOfOdin: wut u gon do bout it
Arkley: letz take dis outside
ArwynOfOdin: u finna get hurt dawg
Arkley: letz see bout dat
Kilhart: HAI GUYZ