[nefarious.lover]

I think you'd use those even over Heca +1 for anything but Mercy Stroke.


ANNM, FoV, and ACP augmented gear noteworthy to THF goes here, kthx.


I'd say post it in the accomplishments thread, but if you notice gear and it's not yours, that's not the right place, so lets keep random shit we find in once central place, and not post a new thread each time we find new gear.

[nefarious.lover]

And of course this makes me die a little inside.

Someone mentioned it in another thread, here's the pic.



Want so bad Q_Q

[synthetic]

i heard ppl talking about the 7 dex hands. i'd love to get em, but no info on where they drop exactly.

[Melos]

Well the Dragon Mittens come from the Crawlers Nest (S) ANNM. But, the chances of you getting a pair with DEX +7 again aren't very high. That augment shit is pretty random. It's a matter of luck really. Grats to whoever got those. Best WS hands bar Mercy Stroke.

[Shadowmeld]

The only reason to use these over Heca +1 would be for the extra 2 Enmity. The +8 STR on heca is equivalent to the extra +2 DEX these have over it. Anything with TA should have Rogue's Armlets +1 as the final goal. These at most are a place holder for Heca +1 only.

[Daggermaster]

uh, no. you're mistaken :X

[nefarious.lover]

The only reason to use these over Heca +1 would be for the extra 2 Enmity. The +8 STR on heca is equivalent to the extra +2 DEX these have over it. Anything with TA should have Rogue's Armlets +1 as the final goal. These at most are a place holder for Heca +1 only.

You are a placeholder for someone with a fucking brain.


Good day and goodbye!

[Ture]

You are a placeholder for someone with a fucking brain.


Good day and goodbye!

QFMFT

[Kat Scythe]

The only reason to use these over Heca +1 would be for the extra 2 Enmity. The +8 STR on heca is equivalent to the extra +2 DEX these have over it. Anything with TA should have Rogue's Armlets +1 as the final goal. These at most are a place holder for Heca +1 only.

Dare thou impose upon our threads?


THOU HATH INCURRED THE WRATH OF DRAGONS UPON THEE! I SHALL SMITE THEE LEST THOU VACATES THE PREMISES

[Symbios]

Wait, so 2 DEX outdoes 8 STR? How are you supposed to figure out how much STR warrants use over DEX gear?

[Shamaya]

Those hands look pretty scrumptious.

Not only for sa/sb/de/ev, but also for tanking. Currently I use Denali Wristbands because from what I can tell they're not only the best piece for pure evasion (aside from master mitts), but also have offensive stats and -% dmg. These hands however also have precious subtle blow, which on top of the evasion is real nice for some builds.

[Shadowmeld]

QUOTE (Shadowmeld @ Apr 29 2009, 10:41 AM)
The only reason to use these over Heca +1 would be for the extra 2 Enmity. The +8 STR on heca is equivalent to the extra +2 DEX these have over it. Anything with TA should have Rogue's Armlets +1 as the final goal. These at most are a place holder for Heca +1 only.



You are a placeholder for someone with a fucking brain.


Good day and goodbye!

Explain then why these are better than Heca +1 for all WS barring Mercy Stroke, because I just don't see it.

[Melos]

Explain then why these are better than Heca +1 for all WS barring Mercy Stroke, because I just don't see it.

Then you just need to quit fucking playing Thief then, dumb ass. I mean really, come the fuck on, do you really want someone to fucking explain it to you?

[rambus]

im interested in earings what they can give there.

[Symbios]

Then you just need to quit fucking playing Thief then, dumb ass. I mean really, come the fuck on, do you really want someone to fucking explain it to you?

I don't need an explanation as to why they're better, but I'm wondering if there's some sort of formula you guys are using that somehow tells you 8 STR < 2 DEX, because I've always been under the impression that a large amount of STR would end up doing more for your damage than a bit of DEX.

[Shamaya]

Bah I had a post written and then my IE crashed. I'm at work now and pics are blocked, but iirc there was also 2attack on the piece shown in the OP. If that is so, then the comparison between the pieces is roughly broken down as so:

+2dmg 1st hit (if sa), +4dmg 1st hit (if ta), +0.6dmg all hits (ws mod), +1acc, +x%Crit
vs
+1~2(closer to 2) dmg all hits (+fStr), 2atk

For DE I think maybe the Heca+1 is still pretty nice. Hard to say so with Evisceration though. The +x%Crit is the key issue here I think. Lately, thx to more recent anecdotals and experience including contributions here by that angel Treelo, it's beginning to look like Evisceration has (almost?) always outclassed DE. Most of us just hadn't (or haven't) geared it properly. Take these very recent SS's for example:

and

..and these are unstacked (no sa/ta). I'll have to add that in this party we had double minuet and chaos roll and I was using mtithkabobs. But still, freaking unstacked. 600-900dmg was fairly common but there were a whole lot of 1300-1500's as well. I just got love torque and cuchulain's mantle in the past few days, boosting me from 125->134 dex, and I can say that I've noticed a huge increase in my EV's, so something must've tiered up.

I'm very used to breaking everything down to a decisive formula but I've started to realize that oftentimes there just isn't one available. There's likely some function, say dCrit, maybe a function of PcDex/NpcAgi, I'd imagine, and at various dCrit tiers (let's just say 10, 20, 30, and so on for example) you get a corresponding crit%+ tier boost. The boosts seem significant.


The point is: experiment with as much dex stacking as possible for your WS (evisceration). If you can't seem to get good numbers then you're probably not tiering up, and it's not a terrible idea to stack less dex or use DE instead. But at least give high-dex EV a chance. As for me I would very likely use these for EV.

And don't forget shark bite as well (higher Dex mod, higher fTP, less hits).
And solo SA (heca has slow on them).

[Ture]

I don't need an explanation as to why they're better, but I'm wondering if there's some sort of formula you guys are using that somehow tells you 8 STR < 2 DEX, because I've always been under the impression that a large amount of STR would end up doing more for your damage than a bit of DEX.

Then you just need to quit fucking playing Thief then, dumb ass. I mean really, come the fuck on, do you really want someone to fucking explain it to you?

fucking seriously go play sam or something.

[Shadowmeld]

Then you just need to quit fucking playing Thief then, dumb ass. I mean really, come the fuck on, do you really want someone to fucking explain it to you?

So, I should just accept that these are better because someone says "Hey, these are better...," with no resoning other than that. Wow, maybe you should quit playing altogether.

Here I can break it down for each individual WS for you if you would like. We will ignore TA, because, as I said in my original post, anything involving TA should have a final goal of Rogue's Armlets +1.

Heca +1
8 STR: on any mob outside of gods, this should be giving you +2 fSTR (that is +2 base damage to all 5/6/7/8 hits)
4 Atk: From the 8 str, notice, this is higher than the atk value that the augmented Dragon hands are giving you.
5 DEX: +1 WSC, or if you can work it out before hand, you have about a 25% chance of this giving +2. +5 Base damage on SA (first hit)
Crit Rate +x%: Not on DE, SB, MandStab, no crits, sorry. Literally x% on Evisceration, unless you have definitive information that I don't have.
2 or 3 Acc: From the DEX
+10 HP: No reason, just for completion
7% Slow: Not applicable on WS

Augmented Dragon Mittens
4 AGI: Useless if you have Rogue's Armlets +1, otherwise +4 Base Damage on TA
7 DEX: +1 WSC, or 75% chance of +2, +7 Base Damage on SA (First hit)
Crit Rate +y%: Same as above.
3 or 4 Acc: Will always be +1 over Heca +1, so added 0.5% hit rate
2 Atk: slight increase in cRatio, less than Heca +1
2 Subtle Blow: Mob gets 100 tp in 4.2 seconds instead of 4.
4 Evasion: Nope, doesn't help you on WS
-16 HP: Nope, doesn't help you on WS
+2 Enmity: WS gets more hate than same item with no enmity, no help on damage at all.

Solo WSs first:
DE:
Heca Wins: +1-2 base damage, -0.5% acc, +2 atk

EV:
Same as above, but you have y% crit. Based on currently known and chronicalled information (not fact, just no other data out there) if you are over about 120 DEX on normal mobs, x% crit and y% crit will be equal. I will call this a tie until crits are more well known. + base damage is actually worth more here than in DE, because you don't get the added damage from CHA too.

SB:
This one is a little more difficult, because the DEX mod on SB is 50% dex. Both pieces guarantee +2 WSC, Dragon mittens have a 90% chance of doing +3 WSC due to level correction. This means Heca +1 still wins, because of the +2fSTR.

MandStab:
Same DEX mod as DE or EV, so higher base damage is going to win here.

SAWS:
DE:
First hit - Heca still wins, 1.1875 fTP mod before factoring in DEX for SA, so, Heca is adding 2.35 base damage, instead of 2. So with the DEX on Dragon Mittens, the base damage difference on first hit is -0.35 to +0.65. Heca still gives +1-2 base damage on all other hits.
EV:
First hit - Heca looses on first hit by 0-1 base damage, All other hits Heca wins by +1-2 base damage, again, actual data on crit rates unknown. We will call this one a tie again.
SB: I would call this one a tie too. First hit will favor Dragon mittens, but only by a small amount. (0-1 base damage from SA, after fTP takes into account higher base damage increase from Heca), second hit, still in favor of Heca.
MandStab:
Same as SB really, lower dex mod favors heca more.

SATAWS:
Aim for Rogue's Armlets +1.


As a last comparison for completion, I looked at probably what motivated this discussion in the first place.
price of dragon mittens: 0k, getting it from ANNM
Avg Price of Cursed Mittens -1: 3.5M

Shamaya: I haven't seen one yet with +2 acc on it, that could potentially push the multihits in its favor. Thanks for your post.

Melos: Perhaps when someone asks a legitimate question in the future, you should probably think a bit before posting so that you don't look like an ass.

Edit: One situation that favors the Dragon Mittens is capped fSTR, which is possible. There are probably other equipment slots that would benefit more from switching though.

[Symbios]

fucking seriously go play sam or something.

Christ, way to actually answer an honest question, jackass. So far the only time I've seen most of you thieves say why 8 STR < 2 DEX is simply "Because I think so." If it's so obvious to you all because you've been playing THF for so long, then it shouldn't be that hard to show some simple math for it.

Thanks for posting some actual content, Shamaya. I've always actually stacked as much DEX as I can because you guys say so, but I simply wanted to see some more concrete things about it.

[Shamaya]

Shamaya: I haven't seen one yet with +2 acc on it, that could potentially push the multihits in its favor. Thanks for your post.

That was actually my bad. I was browsing Allah' as well and someone said something about +2 acc. Idk much about ANNM, but I imagine it was prolly incorrect info.

EV:
Same as above, but you have y% crit. Based on currently known and chronicalled information (not fact, just no other data out there) if you are over about 120 DEX on normal mobs, x% crit and y% crit will be equal. I will call this a tie until crits are more well known

I think your whole post is great and your breakdowns are very good. I think I'd have to agree with Just about all of it. Except this part--did you mean that with over 120Dex on most of our merit mobs, your crit will cap? My evidence is anecdotal, but if that's what you meant I'd definitely have to disagree. I was mentioning in my last post that I had a total of 125 Dex in my evisceration build last week. This week I upgraded. My build now has ~4 more acc aside from Dex, 1 more Str, 8 less attack, and 9 more Dex (new total of 134). The damage increase I saw was very substantial; huge even. part of that is from the increased accuracy yielding more consistent results (which I saw), but I never got highs like I got in this party, both before and after we started doing minuets. Again it's only anecdotal, but I'm fairly convinced my crit rate became increased.

I've lost the links for any crit rate bloggage that I might have seen in the past. But from what I read I don't remember anything about a 120 cap on merit mobs. Can you remember where you read what you read in particular?

edit: I've just taken a look at the wiki article for crit, and saw a link for a blog I remembered seeing: http://seaseaseaseasea.livejournal.com/2008/01/06/ (haven't had a chance to read it over again yet)