[Shamaya]

Regarding maximizing exp/hr, I think the following could be used as a good order of priority:
1.Survivability
2.DPS
3.Pull Rate
That is, make sure your party has what it takes to survive fights and long/infinite chains. Then make sure your party can kill as fast as possible. Assuming your party can kill fast, then make sure the pulls keep coming in without delay.
(Also, I see there's already a "how cor should be played" thread up from JP-button, but I didn't come here to participate in that thread)

Something that's always irritated me is at how self-righteous many Cors can be. They're just about quicker than any other job class to point the finger and say "you're doing it wrong." I think what's always irked me about this is that I could very very rarely find a Cor (even if they seem to come off as one of 'the best of the best') that could do what I asked them to as party leader, in the best interest of the party, as well as in the interests of that Cor's exp/hr. That is, pulling . I'm not talking about poor or mediocre parties having the cor pull. I'm sure there are times where in some party formations, the cor is the best person for the job (as could be said of my main job class, Thief) of pulling. But there's usually someone else there (preferably a bard) who can do that job for them.

I'm not talking about those parties though, I'm talking about peaked parties. With how long this game has been out, it is now not uncommon to build a party that can quote-unquote "cap" exp/hr at common merit camps. I'd even go so far to say that it doesn't even take a "great" party to be able to achieve this; "mediocre" parties can too. With a single, skilled bard puller, pulling all the available traditional mobs within the radius of their camp, the cap seems to be somewhere around 20-22k/hr+ without corsair's roll. But since merit parties are supposed to be about exp/hr I almost never merit without Brd+Cor anymore; I like my exp roll.


The problem is that this "cap" that I'm talking about is kind of an illusion. And the reason that it is so is because the mob supply at most merit camps (MMJ south and north, Birds mid and maybe lower) can be larger than most parties realize. Perhaps talking theoretically isn't as good as giving a solid example, so I'll get to the point and do that instead.

Let's take a great party setup. Outside heals if they're available, but that's unconventional and unnecessary (unless there is no "haster" within the party). Let's say mid bird camp. Let's say the healer is either a Dnc 5/5HasteSamba or Sch (accession+erase wivres) w/ outside heals, or a contemporary Rdm or even a Whm. Obviously we'll need a Brd/Nin. And of course 3 of the best "relic level" DD's you can get. I'm talking War/Sam, Mnk/War, assorted relics, Sam's with good pole builds, or w/e. The best of the best isn't even close to necessary to get well over 25k/hr, but let's say we've got that. Now we obviously need a cor for our exp roll (the main reason I put Cors in my pt).

So here's the meat of the issue. How should the Cor play? Straight DD? Support role? DD extra support? Well obviously given the topic of the thread, there's my preference: puller. One might say "ah, but there's already a bard." Decent point, but there's a very good reason why I would like a Cor to pull as well. That reason: the bard can't keep up with the pulls. This is more fact than opinion, and I know it first hand since I am a (pretty decent) bard. Even if your bard knows the camp perfectly, plays well, and has a chakram to pull with (which every bard bring for bird merits just in case it is required), it's not easy for them to keep up with regular 5-15 second kills and with no mobs up within their visual range.

There are two ways to amend this problem: 1.Increase the mob supply, and 2.Increase the pull rate. Mid birds is now my favorite camp because it seems the easiest for increasing mob supply. First, there are 3 wivres. Secondly, there's a whole floor of birds (and more wivres) next to you, and very many of them within 25' firing range. If that weren't enough, there's a floor of pullable mamools above you, and sometimes you can pull up to 5+ at a time (not necessarily a bad thing).

The problem is that it's very hard for a single bard to keep up w/ all these pulls and leave no downtime between fights. Ideally, if possible, a party should aim for 0 downtime between fights. If a mob dies, another one should be within melee range (not usually possible, but let's aim for that). For a bard trying to keep up 2-4 songs and travel up to 50' each way for another mob, 5-15 second fights may be too fast for this goal. This is where the cor comes in. I understand that you can't roll whenever you want to, but the rolls last a long time. If anything, let's keep it simple and say you just have to sing an exp roll and a dd roll. That leaves plenty of time to pull. With the kill rate given, /rng isn't going to help a whole lot. Our kill rate already exceeds our pull rate. Mp is fine, so support role isn't needed. The problem is the pull rate.

Darts

Corsairs can wear these. I frequently hear about corsairs saying they can't help pull because their guns are too slow. That's usually just their convenient excuse to say "I'd rather DD." But if gun speed is really a problem, darts are readily available and cheap. If a mob needs to be slept, dispelled, or light-shotted to enhance dia (wivres/lurkers), nothing is stopping the cor from making a macro to swap in the gun and ammo before the ability. Then they can swap back to darts and continue pulling.

I've had a few (rare) wonderful cors who have helped pull for my parties before (though never with darts). Cors, I guarantee you that if you get one of these calibur parties, co-pulling in the aforementioned way for the aforementioned reasons will increase your exp/hr (up to 35k/hr+, no fibs). And it should hopefully be fun too.


I'm interested to see what the cor community's thoughts are on this potentially perceivably outlandish proposal, especially since the caliber party I outlined above isn't even necessary to "cap" exp at most camps, and the easiest way to increase exp/hr from that "cap" will always be to add another puller (given the need for exp roll in an optimal party, this means it has to be the corsair). Also I am talking from experience as well; I have co-pulled on my sub-70 cor at mid birds before.

[Gyth]

MMJ south

As a bard, I can't say I've been in any 30k+ parties.
But dealing with puks at south gives me an idea of where you're coming from.
A cor picking up a couple pulls when I'm stuck behind a wall of puks and trying to get buffs up would be very useful.
So I guess if you're in a party that does to birds what most parties do to puks a 2nd puller would seem prudent.
Cor (and everyone) should also be ready to pull in a normal party if you're waiting for repops and the bard is out of position (or doesn't have a chakram).

First, there are 3 wivres. Secondly, there's a whole floor of birds (and more wivres) next to you

I usually pick off the 2nd floor birds first, unless there is a party there.
Wivres have always been chain breakers the 2-3 times I've been in a party that tried them.

[Kilhart]

Darts aren't the only option. CORs that bitch about long delay on guns for pulling and are 72+ need to quit the job ASAP.

And yes, in my opinion, BRDs are better pullers than CORs, but a COR should be ready to be either a solo puller or one of the pullers if needed.

Aside from that, my ADD kept me from reading your entire post, but I can only assume that it makes sense.

[Shamaya]

Yeah, sorry about the long post. It's a really bad habit.

I find that pretty cool that nobody has outright rejected the concept thus far. Maybe Cors on forums aren't like all the ones I meet in game who seem to think nothing but /rng DD'ing is ever acceptable, but is a wise insight only realized by the "select elite" (when really almost every cor I've seen at 75 is doing the same exact thing).

As a bard, I can't say I've been in any 30k+ parties.

I've never gotten anything that high without corsair's roll. I think I've only barely broken 30k/hr once or twice at mamools. I've touched 35k/hr a fair amount of times already at mid birds with crazy setups. In the parties that have done that, chaining wivres was pretty much not an option, but a necessity after the other floor's bird supply had been exhausted. Wivres can be chain enders for even the best of parties, but if you have really strong DD's and quick erases (and sometimes a little luck) you can chain reliably.

Also on a tangent note, for some strange reasons I've seen Cor land some extremely impressive slugs on Wivres. By impressive I mean that my mercy strokes normally do from 1k->1.3, and sometimes 1.5 to almost 2k. I've had a few friends land over 1900's almost every time (actually the exact same number several times in a row). Meanwhile their slugs do in the lower k range on birds while my mercies approach almost 2k every time, in the same party. Sometimes I think that this is some sort of glitch.

[Kilhart]

Birds simply have a straight multiplier to piercing damage. Wivre Berserk, however, shoots up ranged pDIF, so I can understand a COR with not that much ratt+ in gear/food/buffs doing more damage on Wivres than on birds.

[Kaparu]

Also on a tangent note, for some strange reasons I've seen Cor land some extremely impressive slugs on Wivres. By impressive I mean that my mercy strokes normally do from 1k->1.3, and sometimes 1.5 to almost 2k. I've had a few friends land over 1900's almost every time (actually the exact same number several times in a row). Meanwhile their slugs do in the lower k range on birds while my mercies approach almost 2k every time, in the same party. Sometimes I think that this is some sort of glitch.

Pretty much what Kill said. The damage Mercy Stroke and Slug Shot/Detonator do to Greater Colibri scales equally with eachother, while a detrimental effect like Berserk favors those who generally don't have the attack to support high numbers. In other words, their otherwise lackluster Slugs are going to peak, while your generally high Mercy Strokes are going to suffer from diminishing returns in pDIF.

[2ndcoming]

blah blah blah this shit is retarded.
Cor's job isn't made to just pull. We can buff and dd. Maybe it's just me but if i can do as much damage as a rng then why the hell should i just stick to pulling.

Basically what I'm trying to say is Cor's job is very diverse. If there is a brd + cor in your pt the sensible thing to do is have the brd main pull and have cor back up and sleep while he buffs and dd.

If a Cor was to be main pull, he or she would have to use quick draw or have a very low delay gun. Hence that's all he'd be doing if he or she accepts this role and your party is killing fast.

[Andy]

I don't think that the argument is what CORs should or shouldn't do, it's more about what they are able to do.

As a BRD, I fully expect that no COR I will ever party with will volunteer to main pull. I don't think they have to if they don't want to, but I do believe that it is completely within their capacity to main pull if they so desire. I've had CORs main pull on parties where I wasn't my BRD, and they did excellent. But I don't think there is anything wrong with a COR just buffing and spitting out slugshots.

[2ndcoming]

Yea i'm with you Andy

[Kilhart]

blah blah blah this shit is retarded.
Cor's job isn't made to just pull. We can buff and dd. Maybe it's just me but if i can do as much damage as a rng then why the hell should i just stick to pulling.

Basically what I'm trying to say is Cor's job is very diverse. If there is a brd + cor in your pt the sensible thing to do is have the brd main pull and have cor back up and sleep while he buffs and dd.

If a Cor was to be main pull, he or she would have to use quick draw or have a very low delay gun. Hence that's all he'd be doing if he or she accepts this role and your party is killing fast.

The argument isn't about what CORs should be doing most of the time. It's about if a COR should be ready to pull if the situation calls for it. Sometimes you'll be in a LS merit party with a 66BRD, for instance. Not all parties are optimal.

Also, find better RNGs if you're doing as much damage as them. If COR inherently possessed as high a potential damage output as RNG, then no one would use RNGs for anything except Shadowbind.

[Osvaldo]

COR's can pull, but most simply don't want to. They're already Buffing the PT, and can choose between either DD'ing secondary, or pulling/sleeping secondary. And their DD capabilities are better than their pulling ones, so that's what they would rather choose (again, this just applies to the majority of CORs that I've dealt with, including me in that line.) I'd be glad to pull for a PT, but when it becomes repetitive as the ONLY thing I'd get invited for in a merit PT and to be expected to do so everytime, It would just pull me away from wanting to do so. But if you need an extra puller (which I can understand when trying to maximize xp/hr) for large areas, there's no reason why the DD's can't do the same thing as what the COR would be doing; equipping darts or rocks or even the Aht Urgan chakrams to help pulls a bit. Last time I merited on DRG I was the only puller because the COR didn't want to, and still ended up with 25kxp an hour, which is more than acceptable imo.

[Robert Redford]

So the tl;dr version would be: having a COR/NIN co-pull with a bard instead of DDing will increase XP/hour, yes?

I think if you can arrange everything the OP described, it's certainly worth doing. But I'm skeptical about it being something the average player would be fortunate enough to accomplish because it requires unusually favorable circumstances.

First problem: The middle camp isn't always available. Even if it is, the chances of the top and/or bottom camps also being available to provide the additional mobs is quite low unless you happened to be meriting at off times (and even then, things sometimes change during the course of the party, such as other groups appearing later). Without starting a merit party ethics discussion, I'm assuming you wouldn't advocate pulling from either of the other levels if a party were already occupying it. (Perhaps needless to say but to cover my bases: The problem would be no different if you got the top camp and the middle was taken, or you got the bottom camp and the middle was taken.)

Without those additional mobs, we're simply at the same kind of "cap" we've all experienced a million times before: We've cleared the area, got buffs up to date, and the bard is sitting there waiting for something to pop because our kill speed is too high for the mob supply. If there are no mobs, it doesn't matter whether you've got one puller or six.

Another problem I see: without overestimating my DD abilities, the damage I contribute is sometimes part of the reason why we're maintaining the kill speed we've established. Having only 3 DDs works depending on their caliber, but sometimes 4 (I guess a COR would sort of be 3 and a half DDs) are needed.

That's because the majority of us are stuck with the burden of dealing in reality instead of the theoretical. And the reality is we're probably doing a /sea all 75 inv to get our DDs, and inevitably those DDs are going to suck. But you won't know until they arrive and begin TPing in STR gear and rocking a 75% hit rate with their askar bodies.

Combine those two problems, and you've got a COR/NIN who is adding nothing to the pulling department because there are no mobs to pull and who is adding little to the DD department because of a non-ideal subjob, which is causing the kill speed to drop.

So, I don't know. It sounds awesome if you can pull it off, and I hope I get invited to one of these parties one day. But it seems risky, because if the planets don't align quite right, you might end up creating something worse instead of something better.

UNRELATED SIDE NOTE: I wonder why everyone appears lately to be so averse to CORs DDing anyway. There are certainly CORs who focus too much on it and neglect their support duties, but there are also plenty who are perfectly capable of adding damage without sacrificing their primary duties, which I can only believe is a positive thing. It's not like we're bards trying to convince the party we should be allowed to melee for mordant rime; we're actually capable of packing a punch in addition to making other people pack their punch harder, but we get criticized for wanting to.

[Antithesis]

Sham likes cors that pull

[Kuz]

Also, find better RNGs if you're doing as much damage as them. If COR inherently possessed as high a potential damage output as RNG, then no one would use RNGs for anything except Shadowbind.

FACT!

Being both 75 RNG and COR... i'm not saying Cor doesn't have decent Damage Output.
But hell will freeze over the day I can out damage my RNG on my COR.
As it stands now, my Sidewinders do nearly 4x as much as my COR's slugs. and most gear is compatible between the two.


As for Pulling, I back up pull all the time on COR. never complain about it.
but, and i admit it freely, i'm one of those bitches that hate to main pull... because I generally suck at large chains.

I can back up the puller by bringing some mobs in, or sleeping and what-not.
but I like to hang back, focus on rolls and some DD over time.

[Gyth]

If there are no mobs, it doesn't matter whether you've got one puller or six.

If the bard isn't sure which side the next bird will pop, then someone watching the other side can be very helpful.

So the tl;dr version would be: having a COR/NIN co-pull with a bard instead of DDing will increase XP/hour, yes?

I think a cor being willing to pull is a lot more important than their subjob.
If kills are fast then /rng and pull with QD. (can you barrage darts?)

[Corrderio]

CORs can have good pulling potential, however I usually don't prefer it since I enjoy buffing/DD. I can do pretty good pulling on COR but so so many bullets/light cards down the drain or darts.

[Katchoo]

If kills are fast then /rng and pull with QD. (can you barrage darts?)

that made my head hurt ..... owe

[Kuz]

If kills are fast then /rng and pull with QD. (can you barrage darts?)

still scratching my head at this one...