[Metticus]

So apparently they found the missing link between monkeys and humans. I guess we are descendants from Lemurs.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...link-found.html

May 19, 2009—Meet "Ida," the small "missing link" found in Germany that's created a big media splash and will likely continue to make waves among those who study human origins.

In a new book, documentary, and promotional Web site, paleontologist Jorn Hurum, who led the team that analyzed the 47-million-year-old fossil seen above, suggests Ida is a critical missing-link species in primate evolution (interactive guide to human evolution from National Geographic magazine).

(Among the team members was University of Michigan paleontologist Philip Gingerich, a member of the Committee for Research and Exploration of the National Geographic Society, which owns National Geographic News.)

The fossil, he says, bridges the evolutionary split between higher primates such as monkeys, apes, and humans and their more distant relatives such as lemurs.

"This is the first link to all humans," Hurum, of the Natural History Museum in Oslo, Norway, said in a statement. Ida represents "the closest thing we can get to a direct ancestor."

Ida, properly known as Darwinius masillae, has a unique anatomy. The lemur-like skeleton features primate-like characteristics, including grasping hands, opposable thumbs, clawless digits with nails, and relatively short limbs.

"This specimen looks like a really early fossil monkey that belongs to the group that includes us," said Brian Richmond, a biological anthropologist at George Washington University in Washington, D.C., who was not involved in the study.

But there's a big gap in the fossil record from this time period, Richmond noted. Researchers are unsure when and where the primate group that includes monkeys, apes, and humans split from the other group of primates that includes lemurs.

"[Ida] is one of the important branching points on the evolutionary tree," Richmond said, "but it's not the only branching point."

At least one aspect of Ida is unquestionably unique: her incredible preservation, unheard of in specimens from the Eocene era, when early primates underwent a period of rapid evolution. (Explore a prehistoric time line.)

"From this time period there are very few fossils, and they tend to be an isolated tooth here or maybe a tailbone there," Richmond explained. "So you can't say a whole lot of what that [type of fossil] represents in terms of evolutionary history or biology."

In Ida's case, scientists were able to examine fossil evidence of fur and soft tissue and even picked through the remains of her last meal: fruits, seeds, and leaves.

What's more, the newly described "missing link" was found in Germany's Messel Pit. Ida's European origins are intriguing, Richmond said, because they could suggest—contrary to common assumptions—that the continent was an important area for primate evolution.

More on Missing Links

• National Geographic-Funded Study of Human Missing Links

• Make Missing Links Morph: National Geographic Channel's Interactive on Extreme Evolution

—Brian Handwerk
Photographs courtesy PLoS ONE

[firefeng]

As interesting as the article is, it won't make any difference to Fundies, who will (a) claim that the earth is not 36 million years old, thus forcing this creature to exist side-by-side with man in the last 10,000 years, or (b) demand that the link between this new creature and humans is found.

They're particularly fond of the latter "argument", being wholly incapable of understanding the concept of evolution and the rarity of complete fossil specimens (although with smaller specimens, such as plankton, it's not very difficult to see the evolutionary progression given that their small size lends itself to better preservation through geological catastrophes than larger fossils).

[Vigilous]

( demand that the link between this new creature and humans is found.

Can't stop... Laughing... Side... Side is BURSTING!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Serataru]

I thought we all already knew about Rambus

[Varizen]

I think Rambus might need some ointment for that one.

[Geothermal]

Well, that's apparently another gap filled, that religious folks will invariably ignore at any given moment.

[Serataru]

I think Rambus might need some ointment for that one.

20 bucks says he'll need to use google to even get the joke

[Samurai-Kimera]

Hmm thats a slap straight to religions face.

[Littlebender]

Hmm thats a slap straight to religions face.

Unless you worship monkeys?

[Fencer of Alexander]

If arguing this issue with "fundies" (omg I love that term), I would avoid bringing up missing links in general. As evolution is an ongoing process, everything is part of the link. The fundie would just keep insisting that a missing link needs to be found - but will never be found. Best to stick with the DNA evidence, anatomical adaptations to the environment, and the fact that biological pathways for the vast majority of eukaryotic organisms are pretty much the same.... but then again I doubt that will work as most of these people believe that CO2 is harmless because it's in soda.

The real reason fundies and other wackos refuse to believe in evolution is that they don't want to come to terms with the fact that their distance ancestors (and that of all humans) are from Africa, and that is all there is to it.

[pathwriter]

I wonder if people are thinking too much of this. This is the Rosetta Stone, it's a way of translating between the hieroglyphics of proto-primates and the ancient Greek of early primates. We already knew the proto-simians existed, this just shows up the in-between. There had never been any doubt in the scientific community of the ascendancy of primates from other mammals.

[Samurai-Kimera]

Just let my mom read the article, and shes a severe bible thumper. This is what I got.

Mom: Well how come it doesn't happen anymore, I dont see evolution
Me: Its super gradual
Mom: So what started it
Me: Well chemicals were fused in the big bang, and became more and more complex o0o0o ahhh blah
Mom: Well, why does it not happen now? The chemicals
Me: Well its about a billion degrees color... natural fusion doesnt really occur on earth mom
Mom: No only god did it
Me: What.. why him? You cant even prove he exsists.
Mom: People need their faith, and they cant prove he doesnt exsist.
Me: You cant prove that Rylee(My 5 year old sis)s imaginary friend doesnt exsist but we know it doesnt
Mom: Youre splitting hairs. Look at all the miracles hes done
Me: Like what?
Mom: Like curing diseases
Me: Uhm, yeah those were done by scientist who ripped their hairs out in a lab testing and experimenting
Mom: Well how do you explain that humans got here
Me: Well a bacteria eventually learned something that made it stronger or faster for survival, and passed it to its offspring, and so on so forth until eventually that little fin that bacteria grew was a big fin and became a creepy ass fish who learned things to make it survive better, and being on land too helped its chances, and somewhere along the lines it slowly developed a faster way to move on land and it got sweet legs, and then one of them learned, oh shit being omnivore makes my chances to live THAT MUCH BETTER! and they ate nuts berrys and other little critters, then eventually they learned that standing on two legs gave them better vision, and then they learned that communication made easier hunting and then they learned intellegence made everything easier, and thumbs helped grasp tools, and tools helped kill things easier, and so on so forth, and here you are so many millions of years later asking me why a big glowing man did not make the world.... thats just plain silly. Reverse evolution is crappy.
Mom: Don't talk to me that way in my house. You will respect my views.
Me; Just telling it like it is.

-march off to post on KI-

[firefeng]

Me: Well a bacteria eventually learned something that made it stronger or faster for survival, and passed it to its offspring, and so on so forth until eventually that little fin that bacteria grew was a big fin and became a creepy ass fish who learned things to make it survive better, and being on land too helped its chances, and somewhere along the lines it slowly developed a faster way to move on land and it got sweet legs, and then one of them learned, oh shit being omnivore makes my chances to live THAT MUCH BETTER! and they ate nuts berrys and other little critters, then eventually they learned that standing on two legs gave them better vision, and then they learned that communication made easier hunting and then they learned intellegence made everything easier, and thumbs helped grasp tools, and tools helped kill things easier, and so on so forth, and here you are so many millions of years later asking me why a big glowing man did not make the world.... thats just plain silly. Reverse evolution is crappy.

No. NO. Bad Lamarckian evolutionist. Go to your room.

Edit: My mom's a crazy fundie, too. I learned a long time ago that it wasn't worth my time to argue with the woman.

[Metticus]

I'm totally for this. I'm glad they found the missing link. On a side note this doesn't really have anything to do with the absence of God though.

[Varizen]

If arguing this issue with "fundies" (omg I love that term), I would avoid bringing up missing links in general. As evolution is an ongoing process, everything is part of the link. The fundie would just keep insisting that a missing link needs to be found - but will never be found. Best to stick with the DNA evidence, anatomical adaptations to the environment, and the fact that biological pathways for the vast majority of eukaryotic organisms are pretty much the same.... but then again I doubt that will work as most of these people believe that CO2 is harmless because it's in soda.

The real reason fundies and other wackos refuse to believe in evolution is that they don't want to come to terms with the fact that their distance ancestors (and that of all humans) are from Africa, and that is all there is to it.

You know. You should read the argument I've been having with Air for 2 months in the Lounge. I'm merely humoring myself with the attempt to explain that a monkey didn't suddenly give birth to a human. I like the quote "faith is the denial of observation to preserve a belief." I'm fine with fundies believing what they want too. But when they start trying to parade their ideas as science and provable that's where I take issue.

However, your idea as to why fundies refuse to give it up is a might off. It's more like they've been raised to believe that's the way it is. And when you honestly believe something and that's all you've ever known, it's hard to shake it off and accept there might be other truths. They're not really propagating lies per say, as they just refuse to give up the foundation with which they were brought up. And most of them are honestly scared of what things would be like without that foundation. Not all of us can be fearless about death. A lot of people just can't handle the thought of not existing. And if you disprove god or prove their foundation of beliefs wrong, they won't be able to handle it.

My personal belief is the person who disproves god has signed a death warrant. That person won't have set people free of mental bonds what restricted them and opened the way to truth. That person will have done something terribly cruel by shattering people's worldview and taking away what little hope there was that something lies beyond death. And because of that... they will be very unstable, and will all be terribly vengeful against such a person.

[Phlow]

I wonder if people are thinking too much of this. This is the Rosetta Stone, it's a way of translating between the hieroglyphics of proto-primates and the ancient Greek of early primates. We already knew the proto-simians existed, this just shows up the in-between. There had never been any doubt in the scientific community of the ascendancy of primates from other mammals.

You're talking about Science here. If you can't see it, touch it, smell it, taste it, or hear it, it's just an interesting idea and that's it. Theory is theory and one could theorize little purple men live in the sun create the thousands of nuclear reactions needed to produce light and heat from it's surface. Until fact proves otherwise, it's on the same playing field as other unproven theories.

It's like the Higg's Bosen - We knew it existed, but we had to go and build a gigantic billion dollar particle accelerator to smash protons at speeds close to the speed of light only to have a proverbial subatomic shit-storm of quantum matter fly all over the god damned place in order to actually see it.

I'm totally for this. I'm glad they found the missing link. On a side note this doesn't really have anything to do with the absence of God though.

This statement struck me as... off. Not the god part, mind you, though that is an excellent point (the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, etc). How can you be "totally for" a scientific fact? It's like saying "I'm totally for the Sun being hot."

[firefeng]

Theory is theory and one could theorize little purple men live in the sun create the thousands of nuclear reactions needed to produce light and heat from it's surface. Until fact proves otherwise, it's on the same playing field as other unproven theories.

Clarify something for me: this is just you pantomiming people who have no idea what they're talking about and not your actual, false opinion, right?

"Theory" doesn't mean what you pretend it means.

[Varizen]

In science, theory means an idea that has some evidence to support it, and that the scientist involved are looking at its weak points to disprove the theory in its current form and modify it into a better one. A theory in science isn't some random speculation you make. It's an idea you start to put together after looking at some evidence and is the first steps to explain the evidence. It is not an everyday theory.

A law is a theory that has over time accumulated overwhelming evidence. Just because its law doesn't mean its 100% true and it is still being modified. However, when a theory becomes law, it is excepted as true in most circumstances.

To make the above statement a theory, Phlow, you would have to find evidence that purple people were on the sun doing it. Until then... that's what you call a "Hypothesis." And to test your hypothesis you need a null-hypothesis to explain what you expect in case your hypothesis proves untrue based on the otherwise natural expected result.

[Xani]

But weren't we originally thought to descend from Orangutans?
And now we're Lemurs...?

EDIT: Re-read, nevermind!

[Samurai-Kimera]

But weren't we originally thought to descend from Orangutans?
And now we're Lemurs...?

EDIT: Re-read, nevermind!

I died a little on the inside. But you know I still love you Xani. You just lost 3 points =/