[Air1]

Irreducible Complexity

[firefeng]

Irreducible Complexity

Aren't you just precious?

I've read enough of your discussion with Varizen not to even bother with you.

It's one of the sad ironies of history, that in the moment when one of it's greatest thinkers came to their intellectual defense, Christendom spurned him as a heretic. In fact nearly the entirety of Nietzsche's relevant work as I understand it can be surmised in the "God is Dead" parable. Perhaps if you read deeper you will find his second prediction about a new age to follow the nihilism as Europe reclaims its soul. I suppose this would be the time for it to happen with enemies now invading Europe on a large scale. Or perhaps it will simply be the triumph of Islam.

I'm dubious about the resurrection of spiritus mundi, at least in the near future, because we have become increasingly adept at distracting ourselves from the void down which we all cascade in disturbing, listless quietude. Rather than facing our present Hell we instead close our eyes and imagine ourselves to be vacationing in a sauna, while the mournful woes of our compatriots are countered by the barely emotive mediation that supplies us our virulent facade of apathetic peace; it is this denial of our present state that prophesies our continued, despondent Sisyphean struggle against the void, where our only reprieve from our knoll-prison becomes the pain of our bloodied soles and the rote mechanization with which we attack our boulders. The very existence of the story of Sisyphus and similar debasements of knowledge to be had in other arcane myths such as the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden, long before Nietzsche so boldly pointed out what everyone hid deeply behind their eyes, speaks to me not of the imminence of emergent enlightenment, but instead resigns me to the sentiment that nihilism is an inherent cancer that precedes and pervades the very existence of knowledge--knowledge from which we cannot escape once attained.

I don't believe the human mind is hardwired to comprehend the vastness of the universe, much less its own dizzying, wonderful capabilities. Such blissful solace that does spell the Utopian advent of the human race from itself and from the chains of its own knowledge will not come to our rescue in our lifetimes, but assuming we do not consume ourselves in our madness I see it occurring in the next few centuries; pivotal to our rapture is the technological ability to rewire and reconstruct ourselves beyond our natural limitations to place us outside the tenebrous grasp of despair, forever. If heaven has left us wanting, we are driven by fate's cold, gnarled hand to create it anew.

We will have to become gods, for certain, but far more so than just the philosophical re-imagining of the self as Nietzsche would have thought. The only questions are whether our waning flames of wonderment may burn until we do, and if we aren't just opening a Pandora's box--closed away from us by Elohim for our own preservation--in so doing.

I suspect that god, if there is one, spared us the curse of perfection for a damn good reason.

[Serataru]

And you Serataru, I never said that or implied it.

Wasn't addressing you, never implied or said that I was addressing you, sit down son, let the grown ups talk

[Metticus]

Oh yeah well you're ugly

[Serataru]

Oh, okay

[pathwriter]

I don't believe the human mind is hardwired to comprehend the vastness of the universe, much less its own dizzying, wonderful capabilities. Such blissful solace that does spell the Utopian advent of the human race from itself and from the chains of its own knowledge will not come to our rescue in our lifetimes, but assuming we do not consume ourselves in our madness I see it occurring in the next few centuries; pivotal to our rapture is the technological ability to rewire and reconstruct ourselves beyond our natural limitations to place us outside the tenebrous grasp of despair, forever. If heaven has left us wanting, we are driven by fate's cold, gnarled hand to create it anew.

We will have to become gods, for certain, but far more so than just the philosophical re-imagining of the self as Nietzsche would have thought. The only questions are whether our waning flames of wonderment may burn until we do, and if we aren't just opening a Pandora's box--closed away from us by Elohim for our own preservation--in so doing.

I suspect that god, if there is one, spared us the curse of perfection for a damn good reason.

What quantity and variety of drugs would I have to consume to produce a load of nonsensical tripe like this? We're apes with delusions of grandeur, some of us clearly more than others.

[firefeng]

We're apes with delusions of grandeur, some of us clearly more than others.

Speaking of nonsensical tripe, I have to wonder how feverish one's brain must be to believe humans will forever remain in the short, brutish state of barbarism that allows you to loathe your own kind so jejunely. How convenient for you, to think so lowly of yourself.

If you don't understand, you're welcome to ask for clarification. Or you could just assume I'm an insane druggie who never speaks in metaphors, which will happily and conveniently reaffirm your misanthropy, and disallow any extraneous thought from cluttering your clean and simple affirmation of distraction as being the primary means of escaping your own ill mind.

[Serataru]

Path, just repeat after me

"Oh, okay"

[pathwriter]

I'm not a futurist twat. I'm going to be dead within a century. Even accounting for the rapid rate of technological development, we're still going to be monkeys when I die. Rattling on about transcending ourselves, even with vague caveats about "within several centuries," is nonsense for pot-smokers and certain varieties of religious, moreso when there are claims about our imperfection and the ability to move beyond them. Prove the imperfection. Where is the comparison? When we approach the Carter catastrophe, I suspect we'll be recognizably the same as we were 50,000 years ago.

[firefeng]

I'm going to be dead within a century. Even accounting for the rapid rate of technological development, we're still going to be monkeys when I die.

Same here. In my case, though, such cold fact doesn't preclude me from thinking and talking about what may be. It's quite a handy distraction, after all.

Rattling on about transcending ourselves, even with vague caveats about "within several centuries," is nonsense for pot-smokers and certain varieties of religious, moreso when there are claims about our imperfection and the ability to move beyond them. Prove the imperfection.

We are not perfect. Using the law of excluded middle, we are thus imperfect. If you'd prefer to argue that we are perfect in spite of being delusional apes with a slightly larger forebrain than our near genetic cousins, by all means, enlighten me. There is presently no comparison to perfection; even before we "killed god", people only held the most vague notions of how and why their god was perfect. Moreover, I never claimed that man would achieve perfection; at best, we will achieve quasi-immortality, and sufficient technology to banish the most menial forms of suffering that one encounters today. Primarily, I was referring to man's future ability to modulate his own emotional response via genetic engineering and cybernetics to better allow him to cope with the vastness of existence, and his infinitesimal role in the grand scheme of things--which you can bet is the source of much of the self-destructive social anathema that afflicts Europe, and to a lesser but growing extent the United States. We are hardwired to be selfish, egoistic creatures to survive; there is no biological foundation in our brains that allow us to effectively cope with the simple fact that we are ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of existence in spite of our biological urgings to the contrary. The best method we have for doing so is ultimately ignorance, or if you prefer, distracting ourselves from the 800 lb. gorilla in the room of our minds. (Note that our close interpersonal relationships also qualify as "distractions"--I'll not besmirch people for loving their spouses, but meaning the world to someone doesn't rectify our present position even in spite of the solace it grants us.)

Granted, I could have made my point to Cruzander much more simply by saying:

"I disagree. I think nihilism is the byproduct of our knowledge of our place in the universe out-pacing our biological, and thus psychological, ability to cope with such knowledge. Therefore, it will continue to exist until the point in time where we may adjust our biology at our whim, technologically and genetically."

However, in my opinion simplicity is confining, and a lesser recognizable form of ignorance. I'm obviously not known for my sparsity of language here, and there's a reason for that; it's less entertaining to be completely straightforward, and my primary purpose for remaining here is my own entertainment, with a corollary interest in picking the minds of people I'd never come into contact with in my daily existence. People like you, for example. I know you think I'll contradict you for the sake of my own asininity, but you're just misinterpreting my desire to get inside your head, to understand you a bit more. I'm hardly a pragmatist, though I do try to keep some stock of common sense somewhere on the dusty shelves of my mind, and seeing such qualities in other people perplexes me. I'll poke and prod them until they're more forward about themselves, sometimes bluntly, sometimes subtly at my own whim.

So, unless I'm particularly adamant about ensuring my point is properly made, I'll express my notions via metaphors, grandiosity, and a wholly unnecessary litany of hyperbole and connotative grandiloquence. Sparse succinctness achieves neither of my aims in being here. Complex vagaries prove far more adept in providing for my own entertainment, and inciting those who recoil at my methods to speak up. That's why if you ever want me to clarify something, feel free to ask. I generally know what I'm talking about, even if you disagree with me or my methods, and considering the large list of things I can find to deprecate myself, I'm hardly averse to admitting I'm wrong when it's so menial a blow to my somewhat imbalanced psyche.

I'm also hoping your mention of the Carter catastrophe is a vagary after my own heart, rather than a serious point, or else I fear I may have overestimated your intellect.

[pathwriter]

The reference to the Carter catastrophe is just one of those things. Human extinction is probably about as certain as Sol exploding. I'm not saying it's going to happen next year, but I mostly just like to refer to it because it's a more interesting way of saying, "When our species dies."

The problem with the word "perfect" is the one you pointed out. Then you rambled about cutting out our emotions and making us able to cope with the universal. Why? Here in the 21st century, it wouldn't serve much purpose for the everyday fork-and-spoon operators to have that kind of perspective. I've actually contemplated it and, you're right, our brains are not equipped to cope with pointlessness. But the notion of improvement is a dubious one. Evolution is lateral change, but high school biology teachers have a habit of pretending that it's an ascent.

I'll give an example of why I question whether the next major change to the human species would qualify as an improvement. When we became civilized, that is, when our great-grandfathers first built cities in the south Asian river valleys and started cultivating plants instead of hunting for food, our dental health went to hell. Human teeth support themselves just fine on forage, but a significant diet of grains wreaks hell. In order to live longer and have more stable lives by living in the same place year round and controlling food instead of hoping that passing antelope will provide, we gave up dental health and have had to have dentists ever since. The net result has been positive, if one considers a massive population increase to be a positive, but hundred of millions (I'm guessing, obviously) have died from infected and rotten teeth.

If we take to the stars and suddenly have a need for being able to consider the awesome distances involved and our psychology adapts to it, that doesn't make it better than our Earth-centered lives are today. Trying to keep a roof over our heads and raise the next generation are sufficient concerns for most people. Thinking about the overwhelming vastness of the universe and the human insignificance against it is about as useful as teaching quantum physics to a housecat. Even if the pussy could being to grasp what was being said, it's completely inutile.

[Xani]

Shouldn't this be moved to Flame Wars, already?
You're all just going round in circles ¬_¬.

[Serataru]

What the fuck is the problem here? They're discussing something. If you don't like it, don't read the goddamn thread. God I am really getting sick of all this fucking whining.

[Varizen]

Just cause there's some disagreement doesn't mean it needs to be in flame wars. Don't get too sensitive. Feng and my argument is pretty much done at this point. Air needs to learn to examine flagella more though. Flagella come from cillia which are less complex. Much the same, they, and other forms of movement originate from something similar to what amoebas use.

[Serataru]

I get so sick of that pussy bullshit, two people start a discussion and because they don't agree it's "ZOMG MOEV IT TO FLAEM WARZ!!!1" Shut up, just.. ugh

[Symbios]

In b4 this gets moved to Flame Wars because of Serataru. =P

[Varizen]

Sera sucks cause she's suggesting we all can't get along

[Xani]

I love how in one thread I'm not important enough for her to flame, and yet in here it like I'm teh queen.
Plus she's a bitch so there we go.

And FYI, I wasn't saying it needs to be moved to Flame Wars because people are arguing. It should be moved because it's a debate, and all debates more or less end up in FW.


EDIT: Serataru... Cheer the fuck up

[Serataru]

I love how in one thread I'm not important enough for her to flame, and yet in here it like I'm teh queen.
Plus she's a bitch so there we go.

And FYI, I wasn't saying it needs to be moved to Flame Wars because people are arguing. It should be moved because it's a debate, and all debates more or less end up in FW.


EDIT: Serataru... Cheer the fuck up

The Queen? Nobody even really knows who the fuck you are, they all just tolerate you because you post pictures of yourself in a corset, and they think that maybe if they're really nice they'll get more pics of you in your underwear. Why don't you just go back to Gaia online? I'd rather be a bitch than a camwhore.

You scream for everything to get moved to FW when people debate, then when it gets to FW you bitch because they're flaming. I think you need to tampax that leak in your vagina and start minding your own goddamn business, child -- adults are talking.

EDIT: Xavi... Get the fuck out

[Varizen]

I wasn't flaming Sera at all. You need to be more familiar with my brand of sarcasm Xani.