[Clide]

Ok, so I've just recently started getting merits, and I've come to a fork in the road. I'm having a hard time deciding on which combat merrits/stats to get. The two jobs I use are PLD and MNK any kind of input would be greatly appreciated.

[FurionStormRage]

If I had those two jobs, I would do 8 H2H, 8 Sword, 4 Shield.

I have 8 Sword, 4 Shield, 8 Great Axe. PLD and WAR are my most used jobs.

[Rhadamantis]

8 HP, 5 STR, 8 H2H, 8 Sword, 4 Shield.

5 Shield Bash, 5 Sentinel, 5 Fealty, 1 Chivalry, 4 Guardian.

[Prothescar]

8 HP, 5 STR, 8 H2H, 8 Sword, 4 Shield.

5 Shield Bash, 5 Sentinel, 5 Fealty, 1 Chivalry, 4 Guardian.

[Rhadamantis]

You should be using your TP for WSing most of the time. Chivalry isn't that helpful anymore, unless you don't have Atonement.

[Hitoseijuro]

8 HP, 5 STR, 8 H2H, 8 Sword, 4 Shield.

5 Shield Bash, 5 Sentinel, 5 Fealty, 1 Chivalry, 4 Guardian.

Not sure your reason behind Fealty, chivalry, guardian merits.

Anyhow if you wanted to merit with usefulness, than 5 fealty and 5 chivalry are a better way to go. If you think chivalry is less useful, than using an abilitly that reduces enmity on something that already reduces the damage that you take, minimizing already the enmity that you take, is less useless.

[FurionStormRage]

I find Chivalry to be very useful, especially if you tend to low-man things or solo a lot.

Saying your TP is better used on Atonement is usually true, but shit's situational, some mobs take crap damage from Atonement, and having the ability to completely fill up our MP every ten minutes has it uses.

[Ryuumaru]

You should be using your TP for WSing most of the time. Chivalry isn't that helpful anymore, unless you don't have Atonement.

It still is as helpful and useful as it ever was. But it sounds to me like you haven't tanked anything greater than a tier III znm.

You can't rely on atonement to do everything for you. If that's what you think, then you're no better than those faggot bandwagon paladins I see everyday in campaign.

There will be times where converting your TP into MP will be far more useful than spamming atonement. Namely, when you're at capped enmity; where any mere action will bring the mob's hate back to you. Perfect scenari would be fighting khim or ixion. those are fights where you will need to rely more on JA combos as well as mp and cross cures, because atonement's damage is shit.

I'd like to see you tank with a PLD who has capped or near capped chiv, and guardian. If he's good and knows what he's doing, then you would more than likely be just standing there swinging your joyeuse, cringing everytime you hit for 0.

And another thing. If you don't have an aegis, 5/5 sentinel 5/5 rampart is the way to go. Anybody should be able to tell you that. the whole point of having a maxed shield bash is to use it in conjunction with aegis' ridiculous augment.

Learn your fucking job.

[Hitoseijuro]

Perfect scenari would be fighting khim. those are fights where you will need to rely more on JA combos as well as mp and cross cures, because atonement's damage is shit.

Last I checked, 320+ was better damage than 0. You dont need to rely much on anything to tank khim, other than slow/elegy to keep him tamed. Khim is easy to keep hate on provided your whm doesnt spam cure you each TP move. If you dont tp burn khim and do it the way of blms, your atonement damage is going to be on par with a blms(not overall) to a degree. But its khim, dont rely on tp for chiv or atonement, he tends to spam TP lose TP moves

And guardian is over rated, you are already taking the minimalist amount of damage while sentinel is up. Guardian feels like something ppl merit because they have nothing better to merit. Ppl who cant find a reason to merit fealty passed the unlocked merit stage, usually just merit guardian b/c there isnt something better to merit.

And another thing. If you don't have an aegis, 5/5 sentinel 5/5 rampart is the way to go. Anybody should be able to tell you that. the whole point of having a maxed shield bash is to use it in conjunction with aegis' ridiculous augment.

You sure about that? Free stun every 4 mins is better, than something thats situational. The reason A~plds merit shield bash is because you actually produce a good deal of extra damage every 4mins. Non A~plds merit shield bash because its a smarter thing to do vs rampart. Any damage you will be negating/reducing from rampart, you could of completely negated with shield bash. There are only a few mobs out there that it wont help obviously (lolixion). I feel SB has more uses over rampart, than you are giving credit to.

Shield bash has a better chance of saving you more than rampart does.

[Rhadamantis]

Not sure your reason behind Fealty, chivalry, guardian merits.

Anyhow if you wanted to merit with usefulness, than 5 fealty and 5 chivalry are a better way to go. If you think chivalry is less useful, than using an abilitly that reduces enmity on something that already reduces the damage that you take, minimizing already the enmity that you take, is less useless.

If you need Chivalry in any fight whatsoever every 10 minutes, you're doing something wrong.
Also, Cure Kits are your friend, and Guardian has proved being satisfactory when shit goes wrong. It is situational, yes, as Chivalry is. That's why I included each to my build, and it works well.

It still is as helpful and useful as it ever was. But it sounds to me like you haven't tanked anything greater than a tier III znm.

Dark Ixion, Sky Gods, some Einherjar bosses, Tier IV ZNMs, some Jailers. Not into HNMs much, but I'm sure that I'd do well against those.
Not accepting differences in playstyles doesn't roll with me. Shut the fuck up.

You can't rely on atonement to do everything for you. If that's what you think, then you're no better than those faggot bandwagon paladins I see everyday in campaign.

Did I say I rely on Atonement to do everything for me? Where did I write that?
All I've said is that most of the time, you should be using your TP on something that actually helps speeding up the fight and generates a good amount of hate. The productivity of Atonement isn't something to throw away, and I'll repeat: if you need Chivalry every 10 minutes, you're doing it wrong.

There will be times where converting your TP into MP will be far more useful than spamming atonement. Namely, when you're at capped enmity; where any mere action will bring the mob's hate back to you. Perfect scenari would be fighting khim or ixion. those are fights where you will need to rely more on JA combos as well as mp and cross cures, because atonement's damage is shit.

One thing for certain: you don't need Atonement to tank anything. I agree. And I don't spam Atonement on Dark Ixion, it's a fight which demands survivability over all-out offense. But I still didn't need Chivalry every 10 minutes against it.
Well, do you? Then learn how to manage your MP effectively. Fealty is very useful in such fights as well, and denying that is just not wanting to see that people can tank shit using a different method than yours.

Again, using Chivalry once every 20 minutes is okay for me. Never had a problem with it.

I'd like to see you tank with a PLD who has capped or near capped chiv, and guardian. If he's good and knows what he's doing, then you would more than likely be just standing there swinging your joyeuse, cringing everytime you hit for 0.

I'd like to see that shitty Paladin using a lolEcphoria ring every time he gets hit by Lightning Spear and gets Amnesia, or relying in a WHM to use Sacrifice all the time.

And another thing. If you don't have an aegis, 5/5 sentinel 5/5 rampart is the way to go. Anybody should be able to tell you that. the whole point of having a maxed shield bash is to use it in conjunction with aegis' ridiculous augment.

Learn your fucking job.

I lol'd.

Your 'way to go' is virtually old-fashioned; go back to '07.

[Hitoseijuro]

Also, Cure Kits are your friend, and Guardian has proved being satisfactory when shit goes wrong.

What does cure kits have to do with guardian? And how does guardian help you when shit goes wrong? Do you realize how much damage and how fast you have to be getting hit under sentinel to actually notice guardian??

Unless you are taking 200+ with sentinel up and constantly throughout the duration, you wont notice it.

I do agree though, everything is situational, but the point is, to pick the ones that benefit more situations. Having the ability to recover your MP completely within 10mins after use *should you need to* is better than an ability that is limited to you taking damage for 30 seconds. For me, when I use sentinel, its for 1: hate, or 2: shadows got wiped, I just took damage enough to put me in a danger zone(an amount of hp not high enough to survive the mobs TP move or a DA/Crit) I pop sentinel and cast my shadows up within 1-4 seconds(ni/ichi)Theres a possibility I could get hit, that one hit wont make a difference, esp if that hit is shield blocked.

Guardian is ok, but imo is far from something you should worry about meriting, and even farther from stressing to fully merit.

-note- btw, tossing in cure kits actually works against your claims, as if you are cure cheating, chances are you will be using up more of your MP. Idk about you but when I was doing HNMs I tended to do 80% of my own curing. Only time that percent dropped was when I was solo tanking, or doing khim.

[Chareos]

Huh, I was under the impression that Shield Bash Vs. Rampart merits was a matter of choice, I went for bash as I find it more situationally helpful, and on some of the fights that matter, Cerb/Khim, it provides a greater enmity gain as only the co-tank is going to get hit with Rampart, in which case Shield Bash's constant enmity gain and free stun are more beneficial.

Only my opinion, then again I haven't been bothered to make a full VIT+ macro to get the most out of my rampart yet, I'm sure I'll get round to it eventually.

I also went for 1 Fealty, 4 Guardian, 5 Chivalry, I can see the advantages of fully meriting Fealty, but it didn't seem enough compared to Chiv's usefulness in a lower member situation.

[Ryuumaru]

Dark Ixion, Sky Gods, some Einherjar bosses, Tier IV ZNMs, some Jailers. Not into HNMs much, but I'm sure that I'd do well against those.
Not accepting differences in playstyles doesn't roll with me. Shut the fuck up.

Wow congrats, you beat the fucking game. amagad. I wasn't dissing your playstyle, I was just calling you a fucking idiot for underestimating Chivalry.

Did I say I rely on Atonement to do everything for me? Where did I write that?
All I've said is that most of the time, you should be using your TP on something that actually helps speeding up the fight and generates a good amount of hate. The productivity of Atonement isn't something to throw away, and I'll repeat: if you need Chivalry every 10 minutes, you're doing it wrong.

I'd rather have something I don't need every ten minutes to twelve minutess, than need it and not have it. It's perfect for ixion too, would lose little to no hate assuming the DD aren't retards because of your near infinite mp.

I'd like to see that Paladin using a lolEcphoria ring every time he gets hit by Lightning Spear and gets Amnesia, or relying in a WHM to use Sacrifice all the time.

Are you even solo tanking Ixion with that flimsy build of yours on ffxiah? lCute terror shield by the way. lol

and if your whm doesn't take those debuffs down just as fast as they come up, then he's garbage. He's not going to use stance or an aoe every fucking time you get bound or grav either.

You sure about that? Free stun every 4 mins is better, than something thats situational. The reason A~plds merit shield bash is because you actually produce a good deal of extra damage every 4mins. Non A~plds merit shield bash because its a smarter thing to do vs rampart. Any damage you will be negating/reducing from rampart, you could of completely negated with shield bash. There are only a few mobs out there that it wont help obviously (lolixion). I feel SB has more uses over rampart, than you are giving credit to.

Shield bash has a better chance of saving you more than rampart does.

This could be true from your point of view, and I could see what you mean.

But honestly, I've been working fine with bash on it's regular timer, so have all my co tanks. Most of the TP moves khim, cerb, tiamat do aren't that dangerous for me to need a stun every 4 minutes. I invested my merits into rampart because I end up solotanking half the time, and I find it more useful for bash. That may just be preference though.

But our RDM/DRKs hardly miss their stuns, and it's not like Dreadstorm or Thunderstrike or whatever Khim and Cerb may use is that lethal....especially with the right support and timing of rampart or sentinel.

I'd still do 5/5 Shield Bash if I had an aegis though, because of the damage, and the fact that -25% full time magic damage taken + D ring would make rampart unnecessary.

btw, tossing in cure kits actually works against your claims, as if you are cure cheating, chances are you will be using up more of your MP. Idk about you but when I was doing HNMs I tended to do 80% of my own curing. Only time that percent dropped was when I was solo tanking, or doing khim.

Though the cure kits are nice, I would have to agree that doing your own curing is much better. Curing anyone in the alliance during a fight with significantly low hp is a much more effective approach, especially when your DD's get WS happy or take a hit from AOE. I use my cure set mainly when there isn't anyone to cure.

[FurionStormRage]

This thread is full of people that can't wrap their heads around situational usage of their job and resort to insults to drive their points home because they don't stand on their own merit.

[Hyriu]

lol

all I have to say

urdumb and a shitty player

[Rhadamantis]

I also went for 1 Fealty, 4 Guardian, 5 Chivalry, I can see the advantages of fully meriting Fealty, but it didn't seem enough compared to Chiv's usefulness in a lower member situation.

Yes, it all depends on your playstyle, your group, etc. I don't tend to be in serious lowman situations, maybe in that case, a fully merited Chivalry might be better.

Wow congrats, you beat the fucking game. amagad. I wasn't dissing your playstyle, I was just calling you a fucking idiot for underestimating Chivalry.

I'm sorry, I thought that "learn your fucking job" was you trying to tell me that my playstyle sucks. You should learn to make sense, then.

Also, all I've said is that most of the time you should be using TP for Atonement, if you have it. I'm not underestimating Chivalry; I'm just saying that since most of the time Atonement spamming is very effective, I won't be needing Chivalry every 10 minutes. It's really that simple.

I'd rather have something I don't need every ten minutes to twelve minutess, than need it and not have it. It's perfect for ixion too, would lose little to no hate assuming the DD aren't retards because of your near infinite mp.

When I start needing Chivalry every 10 minutes in any situation, I'll agree with you.

Are you even solo tanking Ixion with that flimsy build of yours on ffxiah? lCute terror shield by the way. lol

Your conservative approach to our job kinda disgusts me. It doesn't really matter what I wear if I get the job done, but no, that is town gear.

And yes, Terror Shield sucks.
Wait, what?

[Rhadamantis]

lol

all I have to say

urdumb and a shitty player

Says who?
Oh yeah, the random troll.

[FurionStormRage]

Says who?
Oh yeah, the random troll.

I find it best to ignore baseless accusations such as Hyriu's, so many little kids out there that get off on ignorant flaming, I doubt we'll ever see an intelligent, well thought response about PLD tanking from him.

[Phlow]

Just an fyi, the purpose of Guardian is more for the VE than the CE. With 4 merits, you'd lose 76% less hate due to time for 30 seconds every 4:10.

Which is possibly more useful in scenarios when CE is capped and you need a boost to catch up to the cotank's hate.

[Kaparu]

The only good part of this thread is Hyriu