[Hyriu]

I find it best to ignore baseless accusations such as Hyriu's, so many little kids out there that get off on ignorant flaming, I doubt we'll ever see an intelligent, well thought response about PLD tanking from him.

trollin' you.

I wasn't flaming anyone except the guy who thinks he's god himself and trash talks everyone who doesn't think the same way he does, which isn't you, or Rhadamantis...

FYI- Once my PLD hits 75(62) I'll be doing 5/5 Shield Bash/Sentinel(inb4i'mretarded and trash).

Not sure about second tier merits but I'm thinking 5 Guardian, 4 Fealty, 1 Chivalry but then again I'm not sure, the PLD I played on had lackluster cat2 merits so I didn't have the time to experiment with those.

Other than that, about PLD tanking I can't really say much at the moment with the whole Atonement craze because my other char did not have it, or any Nyzul floors.

So, what'd you say?

Spoiler! --Click here to view--

ps: not trollin'

<3 Kap

[FurionStormRage]

I personally feel that Shield Bash is more useful than Rampart, and have 5 SB merits to back that up, so I'm not blasting you for that.

The only thing you had previously contributed to this thread was "urdumb and a shitty player", which is pretty immature and does nothing to help push the topic forward, so my previous statement still stands.

I'd love it if you'd prove me wrong and try to be an asset to the thread.

[Hyriu]

I just voiced my opinion on PLD merits, Shield bash is great, my LS 7 manned Khimaira a week ago with only 1 BLM and 2 PLD Bashing Fulms and none got off because both our PLDs had 5 SB merits, the BLM could nuke because the PLDs could Bash the next 2 Fulm so he didn't have to worry about it(Not like we'd have died but still) and it also provides more hate than rampart, rampart on the other hand is great for mitigating Magic Damage when you gear correctly for it(Koenig, VIT), it'll usually provide less hate than Shield Bash on the NMs my LS does(No Kings where you stand on each others), I do believe it's a matter of preference and my preference is Shield Bash.


Anyway, the arguments I brought up have probably been discussed already(didn't read all the posts), I can't be an asset to this thread by saying arguments that have already been said.

Sorry about the english, canadia, etc.

[Hyriu]

Actually I take back what I said, I just read about half the thread and they were both insulting each other, so... carry on.

[Thelian]

5/5 sent 5/5 ramp, but i started meriting b4 they fixed shield bash and haven't redid them yet

5/5chiv, 4/5guard, 1/5fealty is what i will have when i get around to careing, i've been afk from endgame for the past 6months or so.

[Rhadamantis]

The only good part of this thread is Hyriu

I wasn't flaming anyone except the guy who thinks he's god himself and trash talks everyone who doesn't think the same way he does, which isn't you, or Rhadamantis...

Ah, ok. Forget about it then, since you actually provided your opinion.
I dunno if the guy is a shitty player or not, he's just an old-fashioned prick, I would say.

But Phlow pretty much summed it up about Guardian, for those who get kinda confused about it.
Hitoseijuro emitted a common misconception about Guardian: "do you realize how much damage and how fast you have to be getting hit under sentinel to actually notice guardian??".
Actually, its enmity loss reduction effect does not only apply to the damage you take while Sentinel is on; it applies to everything. It's as simple as that: for every 30 seconds under 4 minutes, your volatile enmity decay is significantly reduced.

[Hitoseijuro]

Hitoseijuro emitted a common misconception about Guardian: "do you realize how much damage and how fast you have to be getting hit under sentinel to actually notice guardian??".
Actually, its enmity loss reduction effect does not only apply to the damage you take while Sentinel is on; it applies to everything. It's as simple as that: for every 30 seconds under 4 minutes, your volatile enmity decay is significantly reduced.

Would you please care to provide the proof of this statement? As kanican already stated, that there is nothing known yet, that affects the rate of decay of VE. In other words, it always decays at 60VE per second.

-note- not saying you're wrong, I might of missed these recent tests. As iirc it was already done, and stating it doesnt affect VE decay.

[Rhadamantis]

In other words, it always decays at 60VE per second.

And the person who said this had Guardian merited?

"Reduces enmity loss while using Sentinel."

The interpretation is simple. It doesn't say "Reduces enmity decrease when taking physical damage" (see Burtgang).

When you're constantly holding hate, with or without Guardian, it's difficult to notice if there's an actual reduction because, well, you're tanking and doing your job. I have four Guardian merits for quite some time, I already got used to it.
But what we can do is have two skilled PLDs with the same gear, one with Guardian merits and one without, tanking something to see if one's enmity decay is faster than the other's. I can try to arrange that, but what people commonly know about Guardian is that it slows down volatile enmity decay while Sentinel is up.

[Phlow]

Would you please care to provide the proof of this statement? As kanican already stated, that there is nothing known yet, that affects the rate of decay of VE. In other words, it always decays at 60VE per second.

No. You are the one challenging the fact that it doesn't work in the manner that is stated on the merit description. You must provide proof that it doesn't. Thanks for playing.

Kanican, while thorough in all of his testing, did not share how he came to the conclusion that: "* Nothing known in game affects the -60 VE/sec decay rate". Given his thorough explanations and hypothesis testings, I think he would appreciate the fact that I cannot simply accept that just because he was unable to find an in game way to reduce VE loss, means that there are no means of reducing VE loss.

[Kaeko]

Hello everyone.

I have personally tested Guardian merits with a PLD friend and it does not alter VE. My comment regarding the fact that nothing known affects the VE decay rate is based on the fact that I have personally seen nothing that affects it, which included Guardian merits. I did not provide a testing procedure on how I did it, but I did allude to this in post 9 I believe. People are free to test themselves if they do not believe me as always. I've been corrected multiple times throughout the last 2 years on enmity and it would be far from shocking to have it happen again; however, I feel pretty good about this one.

Also, try not to read too much into help text and ability descriptions. They give general statements which can be helpful when providing you numbers, but can be very nebulous with talking about game mechanics. Personally I don't ever trust what the game text tells me about these things unless I'm able to somehow verify it myself.

HOWEVER,

if you are a fan of believing SE, you can check out this translated interview by Elmer with the Dev team regarding T2 merits.

http://www.jpbutton.com/?p=831

"Question: If you fully merit Guardian, the amount of enmity you lose is cut by 95%. Does Guardian affect all actions by a player?

Answer: The way that enmity is lost changes while Sentinel is active. Basically speaking, you’ll see the change in the amount of enmity lost after taking damage from the enemy."

Hope this helps!

Kaeko

[Hitoseijuro]

Hello everyone.

I have personally tested Guardian merits with a PLD friend and it does not alter VE. My comment regarding the fact that nothing known affects the VE decay rate is based on the fact that I have personally seen nothing that affects it, which included Guardian merits. I did not provide a testing procedure on how I did it, but I did allude to this in post 9 I believe. People are free to test themselves if they do not believe me as always. I've been corrected multiple times throughout the last 2 years on enmity and it would be far from shocking to have it happen again; however, I feel pretty good about this one.

Also, try not to read too much into help text and ability descriptions. They give general statements which can be helpful when providing you numbers, but can be very nebulous with talking about game mechanics. Personally I don't ever trust what the game text tells me about these things unless I'm able to somehow verify it myself.

HOWEVER,

if you are a fan of believing SE, you can check out this translated interview by Elmer with the Dev team regarding T2 merits.

http://www.jpbutton.com/?p=831

"Question: If you fully merit Guardian, the amount of enmity you lose is cut by 95%. Does Guardian affect all actions by a player?

Answer: The way that enmity is lost changes while Sentinel is active. Basically speaking, you’ll see the change in the amount of enmity lost after taking damage from the enemy."

Hope this helps!

Kaeko

Thanks Kaeko!

I do believe you meantioned this on another forum, but I couldnt find the right one to quote and I didnt want to falsely paraphrase it either.

Testing it would be easy, provided you find both paladins with the same amount of emnity and 1 without guardian merited and one with. Have a third person go with you, put both tanks at opposite ends of eachother within a med range(not too far where the distance might affect the mobs running/hate decay) Let the 3rd player get a very very small amount of hate with CE, under 100 if possible. Then have both tanks time voke at the same time. And watch how the mob behaves, clearly the mob will run to the one whom voked a milli second faster. However within 28-29 seconds it should run back to the 3rd person. Voke again if you like to make sure you get the same reaction. After that, time sentinel. If what is said that guardian does not affect CE, than you will get the same reaction from what you got with provoke. If wrong, the mob will not return to the 3rd player at the same time it did with voke. And it will be noticeable the time it stays on the pld with merits.

[Mefit]

It still is as helpful and useful as it ever was. But it sounds to me like you haven't tanked anything greater than a tier III znm.

You can't rely on atonement to do everything for you. If that's what you think, then you're no better than those faggot bandwagon paladins I see everyday in campaign.

There will be times where converting your TP into MP will be far more useful than spamming atonement. Namely, when you're at capped enmity; where any mere action will bring the mob's hate back to you. Perfect scenari would be fighting khim or ixion. those are fights where you will need to rely more on JA combos as well as mp and cross cures, because atonement's damage is shit.

I'd like to see you tank with a PLD who has capped or near capped chiv, and guardian. If he's good and knows what he's doing, then you would more than likely be just standing there swinging your joyeuse, cringing everytime you hit for 0.

And another thing. If you don't have an aegis, 5/5 sentinel 5/5 rampart is the way to go. Anybody should be able to tell you that. the whole point of having a maxed shield bash is to use it in conjunction with aegis' ridiculous augment.

Learn your fucking job.

I love this guy

Shieldbash 5 Sentinel 5 Chivalry 5 Guardian 4 Fealty 1
I have to say i dont use chivalry as much but i love it.helps me solo nicely on pld/rdm!I went 5/5 on sentinel b/c it stacks with flash and a really good combo if something is to happen where u do loss hate. Alot if KI plds will probably trash my 1 fealty and 4 guardian ("much possibly my sentinel merits as well")

[Mefit]

I been thinking on changing my 5/5 str Merits to 5/5 Dex to increase more crits and acc.Being Elvaan i alrdy have highest str then other races even if they merit str but ....elvaan lack dex ALOT!

[Saxonian]

garbage talk that made me lulz

You should merit INT, elvaan LACK that shit, and you're nukes when /rdm will do more dmg.

[Rhadamantis]

I been thinking on changing my 5/5 str Merits to 5/5 Dex to increase more crits and acc.Being Elvaan i alrdy have highest str then other races even if they merit str but ....elvaan lack dex ALOT!

Choke on shit and die.

[JackalTheManCat]

About guardian: i kind of assumed that when the description says it reduces enmity loss... that it was talking about VE not CE. Of course sentinel already reduces CE loss because you're taking less damage (unless the enmity loss calc is done before the damage reduction calc, but why the fuck would SE do that).

The comment about cure kits and guardian probably has to do with popping sentinel and spamming self-cure (with doubled CE and VE, possibly with VE loss reduction) to pull ahead in hate.

p.s. hyriu is retarded... and trash