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Ok "terrible" might be an exaggeration. However, compared to how other MMO developers are pandering to their subscribers these days, SE is definitely the asshole of the MMO world.
This is a reply copy and pasted from fantastic Massively.com editorial When I was reading it, it got me excited but it got me thinking about how much we long-time FFXI take SE's bullshit for granted and if new players will be as forgiving.
It's long and whiny, and kind of exaggerates at times. But I think the message is right. I love FFXI, and SE's work, I just wish they would take a look around at how other MMOs handle what is essentially customer service.
Beautifully written and even inspirational,. I love what you said about it being designed as the best FF game to date first and an online game second since that was what really stood out to me from the press conference as well. However.
I think you're a little over-optimistic and are a tad blinded by the brand name.
Yes, they succeed profoundly at making beautiful, detailed game worlds, but looking at how they've developed FFXI compared to other MMOs on the market, they fail immensely at maintaining an MMO!
A few examples:
They seem to have no concern or concept of class balance at ALL. Thief, beastmaster have been woefully underpowered since the game was released. Most jobs have ever only recieved 2 adjustments in 7 years... They keep adding classes that offer nothing unique and have no clear purpose in the game. SE's response "we just don't know what to do with pet classes." Really? I'd figure it out, because even though you're more highly praised than Jesus in Japan, Square Enix, it's still your job to find solutions to your game's problems.
They don't communicate and don't seem to have any real desire to communicate with their players. When asked why they don't open official forums they say it's because of the multilingual, international player base. Apparently having 1 forum for English, and 1 forum for Japanese is just too difficult. Or they just can't be bothered to listen to what we have to say.
Hackers, botters and cheaters have COMPLETELY taken over end game and SE doesn't seem to have the slightest idea. Want the best gear in the game. Visit ffxiapps.com before applying to the game's greatest guilds, because they REQUIRE you to verify that you will help them bot on the APPLICATION. The botters themselves have even started to grow weary and try to think of solutions to the botting problem. Square Enix's repsonse: nothing. They've never even mentioned it.
They keep the game mechanics a secret and refuse to reveal even fundamental mechanics of the game. Thief's level 5 ability, Steal, how does it work? Nobody knows. Their prized job trait, Treasure Hunter, is even more of a mystery. Players have speculated they don't reveal the information, because they don't KNOW the information. The people who engineered the mechanics are all spread out on different projects within the company. On one hand, this does create a unique air of mystery in the game that can make it seem more "real" and less like a giant math formula. In the end though, visit any endgame forum on final fantasy and that's exactly what you'll see: countless threads of math geeks with their speculative maths on game mechanics. Great for math nerds, off putting for everyone else.
Then there's Absolute Virtue... It has become the joke of the FFXI world. 4 years and STILL nobody knows how to beat it? They even released a video to give "hints" on how to beat it which revealed, in typical complacent SE style, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Except that they designed the fight to take over 18 hours... They did that on purpose! When they got heat from main stream media for adding another 18+ hour fight that made people physically ill, (Pandemonium Warden) they patched 2 hour time limit on both bosses, making them even more impossible to kill! Popping both these bosses takes HUNDREDS of hours of tedious, grindy work (work, not play) from dozens of players, and yet every attempt is only an experiment to figure out how to even damage the thing...
Final Fantasy XI is greater than the sum of its parts. It has a certain something that is so special and unique in the MMO market, that it makes playing it worthwhile to me. Sorry to sound so negative, I DO absolutely love FFXI. Square Enix themselves on the other hand just repeatedly gives the community an enormous ," F U. We don't care." They are so smugly satisfied with themselves for doing a less than mediocre job at maintaining their MMO.
I could not be more excited for FF14, but I can't help but wonder what the new, mainstream MMO market will have to say about Square Enix's arrogance and indifference.
7 years ago, it was all we knew. Smallish patches 3-4 times a year were standard. Now, with games like WoW and WAR, people expect obviously unbalanced classes to be adjusted. They expect direct, regular communication from the developers. Part of me hopes they continue their antics so that they might learn a lesson in serving their customers when the MMO market rejects their complacent attitude, another part of me hopes that they've just been so busy making FF14 the most awesome game that has ever existed they've unintentionally neglected FFXI.
SE is a terrible MMO development company.
My criticisms and concerns for 14
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#2
Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:06 PM
QUOTE
They seem to have no concern or concept of class balance at ALL.
Ha.
QUOTE
They don't communicate and don't seem to have any real desire to communicate with their players.
Ha!
QUOTE
Hackers, botters and cheaters have COMPLETELY taken over end game and SE doesn't seem to have the slightest idea.
HA!
QUOTE
They keep the game mechanics a secret and refuse to reveal even fundamental mechanics of the game.
Becasue we need them to tell us for half that crap?
QUOTE
Then there's Absolute Virtue...
Oh snap! Something we agree on.
#3
Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:11 PM
Right, because being told everything about anything in a game like FFXI will make it so much more enjoyable.
#4
Posted 08 June 2009 - 10:32 PM
No we don't need them to tell us everything. Actually I agree that it might make the game MORE enjoyable on some level.But I think it's indicative of their arbitrary silence. And also, I find it tiresome that people are belittled within the community for not understanding complicated maths of the game mechanics. I think casual gamers would find this very off putting.
In the recent JPButton JP/EN questionnaire, it was clear that both sides agree on something: SE does not, and indeed doesn't appear to want to communicate with the players. So I'll respect you're opinion but I'm fairly confident you are in the minority if you're fine with their manner and method of communication.
My opinion stems from a lot of experience with a lot of different MMOs. Like I said, it's easy to overlook SE's complacency because I'm so used to it, but when I stop and think about the amount of effort other companies put into things like class balance (which if you REALLY think classes are balanced in FFXI you are completely kidding yourselves. How exactly is Beastmaster balanced with Samurai? Red Mage and Summoner? If this were WoW or Warhammer, the state the classes have been in FFXi for 7 years would be hot fixed within 24 hours! <---- EDIT: Quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever said lol)... SE is flat out incompetent by comparison.
In the recent JPButton JP/EN questionnaire, it was clear that both sides agree on something: SE does not, and indeed doesn't appear to want to communicate with the players. So I'll respect you're opinion but I'm fairly confident you are in the minority if you're fine with their manner and method of communication.
My opinion stems from a lot of experience with a lot of different MMOs. Like I said, it's easy to overlook SE's complacency because I'm so used to it, but when I stop and think about the amount of effort other companies put into things like class balance (which if you REALLY think classes are balanced in FFXI you are completely kidding yourselves. How exactly is Beastmaster balanced with Samurai? Red Mage and Summoner? If this were WoW or Warhammer, the state the classes have been in FFXi for 7 years would be hot fixed within 24 hours! <---- EDIT: Quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever said lol)... SE is flat out incompetent by comparison.
#5
Posted 08 June 2009 - 11:09 PM
maybe your thf is underpowered but please refrain from speaking on all of our behalves...
#6
Posted 08 June 2009 - 11:14 PM
QUOTE (Aurion)
If this were WoW or Warhammer, the state the classes have been in FFXi for 7 years would be hot fixed within 24 hours!)... SE is flat out incompetent by comparison.
I am enamored with your complete lack of bias on this issue. How long have people been complaining about Death Knights being overpowered, by the by? And before that, Druids? And before that, Warlocks? I'm sure google could help me find other MMO analogues just as easily as it did for WoW.
How exactly is Beastmaster supposed to be balanced with Samurai? And SMN with RDM? You're complaining about an issue that has precious little to do with balance, and a lot to do with community perception of those classes, both of which still have their own niche at the end of the day (just like every other non-essential class in FFXI, to varying degrees).
I enjoy the relative silence of the Devs. It promotes community growth, and forces people to interact more. Better they're silent so we're never completely sure of our ability to min/max our characters than for them to open their mouths and remove all doubt about what cookie cutter is the requisite path to community acceptance.
#7
Posted 08 June 2009 - 11:34 PM
Okay argument time!
They actually do have a concept of class balance. If you haven't noticed, the game is more balanced now than when it was in 2004. The "superior" DD's have changed from Dual Wield to 2 handers, but that doesn't mean that they didn't make any progress. The gap between 2 handers and Dual wielders is closer now than it ever was before the patch. Jobs like thieves have also gotten more unique things that make them different from other jobs, such as Accomplice and Collaborator.
COR has been buffed to the level of BRD, however without replacing each other, they complement each other.
WHM is now the king of healing as it should be. RDM and SCH come behind, but both have unique things that make them desired in endgame and outside it.
Fixing BLM is a more complex matter, but we should be hearing SE's reply soon. What this game needs however is not a BLM update, but monsters and events that require or at least make BLM a desirable choice.
I think you have a vision that only huge job adjustments can balance things out, which is humbug. SE does these subtle fixes all the time, which in the long run actually matter more than any big adjustment. It is also more Safer way to update jobs. If you update jobs too much the consequences may be unknown, which results in a need to Nerf the job. Do you notice that SE hasn't been nerfing practically Anything since 2005? Jobs now complain that they haven't gotten an update in ages, but there's no kind of crying about nerfs at all. Have you noticed that since 2006 most of the job adjustments that SE has made are actually pretty well received and well thought out? That's because they've learned. Do you know of the Marinara pizza? That is a fix to all dual wielders as well as hand to handers, that makes the gap between them and the 2h even closer too, but because it wasn't in the update notes, it's not a fix?
Pet jobs have a problem which SE can't do anything about, too. The playerbase sees them as weak, which isn't true (in the case of PUP at least). The job is actually pretty damn close to being "fixed". SMN needs more work, but it has received tons of updates since it came out. It is actually on par with other job if it was 2005, however some changes have to be made to make them desireable for the fast gameplay of endgame these days.
I've asked this on many forums already, and I'll ask it again; Why should they communicate with the playerbase? Do the developers of single player games communicate with their players when making sequel, or is it not necessary? And before you say "lolsingleplayergame", what is the difference between MMO and a single player game in the first place?
The problem is that while there are things SE could do, they are incredibly complex and nobody has figured out a way to detect the newest bots such as NASA. SE also can't just ban someone without any proof, so they need a solid evidence which they right now can't get. Salvage bans were a different case altogether, because SE Could detect the cheaters.
They want the community to act together and figure it out themselves, which they've done. It creates a atmosphere of teamwork which you don't see in any other game. While it would be nice to know the exact acc, eva, m acc, mab, crit hit% by just looking the equip screen, things like damage calculations or how to deal with a new event shouldn't be told to us.
Minor annoyance at best. One mob can't be beaten, FFXI suxorz.
And again, what makes them expect these things? It's not a developers job to communicate.
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 9 2009, 04:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A few examples:
They seem to have no concern or concept of class balance at ALL. Thief, beastmaster have been woefully underpowered since the game was released. Most jobs have ever only recieved 2 adjustments in 7 years... They keep adding classes that offer nothing unique and have no clear purpose in the game. SE's response "we just don't know what to do with pet classes." Really? I'd figure it out, because even though you're more highly praised than Jesus in Japan, Square Enix, it's still your job to find solutions to your game's problems.
They seem to have no concern or concept of class balance at ALL. Thief, beastmaster have been woefully underpowered since the game was released. Most jobs have ever only recieved 2 adjustments in 7 years... They keep adding classes that offer nothing unique and have no clear purpose in the game. SE's response "we just don't know what to do with pet classes." Really? I'd figure it out, because even though you're more highly praised than Jesus in Japan, Square Enix, it's still your job to find solutions to your game's problems.
They actually do have a concept of class balance. If you haven't noticed, the game is more balanced now than when it was in 2004. The "superior" DD's have changed from Dual Wield to 2 handers, but that doesn't mean that they didn't make any progress. The gap between 2 handers and Dual wielders is closer now than it ever was before the patch. Jobs like thieves have also gotten more unique things that make them different from other jobs, such as Accomplice and Collaborator.
COR has been buffed to the level of BRD, however without replacing each other, they complement each other.
WHM is now the king of healing as it should be. RDM and SCH come behind, but both have unique things that make them desired in endgame and outside it.
Fixing BLM is a more complex matter, but we should be hearing SE's reply soon. What this game needs however is not a BLM update, but monsters and events that require or at least make BLM a desirable choice.
I think you have a vision that only huge job adjustments can balance things out, which is humbug. SE does these subtle fixes all the time, which in the long run actually matter more than any big adjustment. It is also more Safer way to update jobs. If you update jobs too much the consequences may be unknown, which results in a need to Nerf the job. Do you notice that SE hasn't been nerfing practically Anything since 2005? Jobs now complain that they haven't gotten an update in ages, but there's no kind of crying about nerfs at all. Have you noticed that since 2006 most of the job adjustments that SE has made are actually pretty well received and well thought out? That's because they've learned. Do you know of the Marinara pizza? That is a fix to all dual wielders as well as hand to handers, that makes the gap between them and the 2h even closer too, but because it wasn't in the update notes, it's not a fix?
Pet jobs have a problem which SE can't do anything about, too. The playerbase sees them as weak, which isn't true (in the case of PUP at least). The job is actually pretty damn close to being "fixed". SMN needs more work, but it has received tons of updates since it came out. It is actually on par with other job if it was 2005, however some changes have to be made to make them desireable for the fast gameplay of endgame these days.
QUOTE
They don't communicate and don't seem to have any real desire to communicate with their players. When asked why they don't open official forums they say it's because of the multilingual, international player base. Apparently having 1 forum for English, and 1 forum for Japanese is just too difficult. Or they just can't be bothered to listen to what we have to say.
I've asked this on many forums already, and I'll ask it again; Why should they communicate with the playerbase? Do the developers of single player games communicate with their players when making sequel, or is it not necessary? And before you say "lolsingleplayergame", what is the difference between MMO and a single player game in the first place?
QUOTE
Hackers, botters and cheaters have COMPLETELY taken over end game and SE doesn't seem to have the slightest idea. Want the best gear in the game. Visit ffxiapps.com before applying to the game's greatest guilds, because they REQUIRE you to verify that you will help them bot on the APPLICATION. The botters themselves have even started to grow weary and try to think of solutions to the botting problem. Square Enix's repsonse: nothing. They've never even mentioned it.
The problem is that while there are things SE could do, they are incredibly complex and nobody has figured out a way to detect the newest bots such as NASA. SE also can't just ban someone without any proof, so they need a solid evidence which they right now can't get. Salvage bans were a different case altogether, because SE Could detect the cheaters.
QUOTE
They keep the game mechanics a secret and refuse to reveal even fundamental mechanics of the game. Thief's level 5 ability, Steal, how does it work? Nobody knows. Their prized job trait, Treasure Hunter, is even more of a mystery. Players have speculated they don't reveal the information, because they don't KNOW the information. The people who engineered the mechanics are all spread out on different projects within the company. On one hand, this does create a unique air of mystery in the game that can make it seem more "real" and less like a giant math formula. In the end though, visit any endgame forum on final fantasy and that's exactly what you'll see: countless threads of math geeks with their speculative maths on game mechanics. Great for math nerds, off putting for everyone else.
They want the community to act together and figure it out themselves, which they've done. It creates a atmosphere of teamwork which you don't see in any other game. While it would be nice to know the exact acc, eva, m acc, mab, crit hit% by just looking the equip screen, things like damage calculations or how to deal with a new event shouldn't be told to us.
QUOTE
Then there's Absolute Virtue... It has become the joke of the FFXI world. 4 years and STILL nobody knows how to beat it? They even released a video to give "hints" on how to beat it which revealed, in typical complacent SE style, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Except that they designed the fight to take over 18 hours... They did that on purpose! When they got heat from main stream media for adding another 18+ hour fight that made people physically ill, (Pandemonium Warden) they patched 2 hour time limit on both bosses, making them even more impossible to kill! Popping both these bosses takes HUNDREDS of hours of tedious, grindy work (work, not play) from dozens of players, and yet every attempt is only an experiment to figure out how to even damage the thing...
Minor annoyance at best. One mob can't be beaten, FFXI suxorz.
QUOTE
7 years ago, it was all we knew. Smallish patches 3-4 times a year were standard. Now, with games like WoW and WAR, people expect obviously unbalanced classes to be adjusted. They expect direct, regular communication from the developers. Part of me hopes they continue their antics so that they might learn a lesson in serving their customers when the MMO market rejects their complacent attitude, another part of me hopes that they've just been so busy making FF14 the most awesome game that has ever existed they've unintentionally neglected FFXI.
And again, what makes them expect these things? It's not a developers job to communicate.
#8
Posted 08 June 2009 - 11:49 PM
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's long and whiny, and kind of exaggerates at times. But I think the message is right. I love FFXI, and SE's work, I just wish they would take a look around at how other MMOs handle what is essentially customer service.
I think SE is above average in customer service, actually. Not the best, but certainly not the worst.
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They seem to have no concern or concept of class balance at ALL.
I don't think any game is immune from balance issues.
I feel the nerf bat was generally used as a last resort, especially because of the outcry and repercussions to any job being nerfed. An early lesson was the smoldering crater that was Dragoon after Pentathrust was blessed with a nerf. Ranger and Beastmaster were never the same once smote with the bat, either.
I think they held restraint again ninja tanking and red mage healing as well, and they held out a long time again black mages until it got of hand with RMT.
I'm not sure how they could have done a better job while they were witnessing their creations in FFXI for the first time, but now that they've learned their lessons, I'm sure FFXIV will only be a better experience for it.
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They don't communicate and don't seem to have any real desire to communicate with their players.
POL (with a feedback form), official web site, annual fan festival, GMs, event moogles...
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hackers, botters and cheaters have COMPLETELY taken over end game and SE doesn't seem to have the slightest idea.
They formed STFU (and no, I wasn't telling you to shut up just now
). You really haven't seen the official web site, have you?QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They keep the game mechanics a secret and refuse to reveal even fundamental mechanics of the game.
Part of the fun is figuring out how it works?
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then there's Absolute Virtue... It has become the joke of the FFXI world. 4 years and STILL nobody knows how to beat it?
Okay, maybe that stopped being fun.
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Final Fantasy XI is greater than the sum of its parts. It has a certain something that is so special and unique in the MMO market, that it makes playing it worthwhile to me.
Maybe this Auronius should talk the Auronius I was just arguing with.
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I could not be more excited for FF14, but I can't help but wonder what the new, mainstream MMO market will have to say about Square Enix's arrogance and indifference.
It sounds like you hate yourself, at this point.
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
7 years ago, it was all we knew. Smallish patches 3-4 times a year were standard. Now, with games like WoW and WAR, people expect obviously unbalanced classes to be adjusted. They expect direct, regular communication from the developers.
No game is perfect. I think SE actually does a good job with patches and updates most of the time. But you can't please everyone all the time, and just plain old mistakes will be made from time-to-time. If FFXI has been that bad for you, might I suggest sticking with an MMO you like better than risk FF14? This is, after all, supposed to be fun.
#9
Posted 08 June 2009 - 11:55 PM
You know... You're right. lol
That's actually why I quit WoW. S3 Warlocks anyone? S4 druids. That shit was fucking ridiculous. After the pre WOTLK patch, when lolRets were just facerolling entire battlegrounds in seconds, I had had enough.
I still stand on the fact that Blizzard TRIES to balance classes. Rets and Warlocks got so overpowered because they were both underpowered for a long time. When I quit, Warlocks had balanced out nicely.
Beastmaster is supposed to be balanced with Samurai because they are both damage dealers... SE did design all the classes with some kind of archtype role in mind. They are so paranoid about pet classes being overpowered (or something) and yet... sekkanoki... apparently not paranoid at ALL about sams being overpowered.
It's their attitude that bothers me. Beastmaster is just the obvious example. I remember back when they made the bst changes in 2006, it was apparently spawned from the BST community uproar after an interview with Pikko where, when she said something like, "The next thing I want to ask about is Beastmasters" The dev's burst out laughing, said they had no plans and indeed didn't know what to do with the class.
In recent interviews they STILL say they don't know what to do with the class except to say things like, "we really want them to be experts on all the enemies in Vana'diel." Translation: "I'm just making some bullshit up spur of the moment so we can move on to the next question"
Don't implement 20 classes if you only care to maintain 15 of them.
@ Hyan and Crispleaf:
All very good arguments and have left me feeling more optimistic.
Minor adjustments over a longer period IS in fact better than huge sweeping changes as Blizzard has learned, and as Mythic is showing the MMO world right now with their latest patch fiasco.
I do love FFXI and like I said, I think I was more excited than anyone after the FF14 announcement. I just hope SE takes a more "mainstream" approach to how they deal with the players this time.
That's actually why I quit WoW. S3 Warlocks anyone? S4 druids. That shit was fucking ridiculous. After the pre WOTLK patch, when lolRets were just facerolling entire battlegrounds in seconds, I had had enough.
I still stand on the fact that Blizzard TRIES to balance classes. Rets and Warlocks got so overpowered because they were both underpowered for a long time. When I quit, Warlocks had balanced out nicely.
Beastmaster is supposed to be balanced with Samurai because they are both damage dealers... SE did design all the classes with some kind of archtype role in mind. They are so paranoid about pet classes being overpowered (or something) and yet... sekkanoki... apparently not paranoid at ALL about sams being overpowered.
It's their attitude that bothers me. Beastmaster is just the obvious example. I remember back when they made the bst changes in 2006, it was apparently spawned from the BST community uproar after an interview with Pikko where, when she said something like, "The next thing I want to ask about is Beastmasters" The dev's burst out laughing, said they had no plans and indeed didn't know what to do with the class.
In recent interviews they STILL say they don't know what to do with the class except to say things like, "we really want them to be experts on all the enemies in Vana'diel." Translation: "I'm just making some bullshit up spur of the moment so we can move on to the next question"
Don't implement 20 classes if you only care to maintain 15 of them.
@ Hyan and Crispleaf:
All very good arguments and have left me feeling more optimistic.
Minor adjustments over a longer period IS in fact better than huge sweeping changes as Blizzard has learned, and as Mythic is showing the MMO world right now with their latest patch fiasco.
I do love FFXI and like I said, I think I was more excited than anyone after the FF14 announcement. I just hope SE takes a more "mainstream" approach to how they deal with the players this time.
#10
Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:06 AM
SAM is not That overpowered.. they have the highest potential, sure, but trust me, I've seen SAM's getting outparsed by PUP's, thieves, and BST's.
BST just needs a niche in endgame. Very few mobs utilize BST's strengths nowadays, so adding some mobs to make BST more desireable would fix the issue without need for updates.. and BST is by no means weak, it gets A+ skill to axe as well as tons of good melee equip. The pet just isn't enough to offset the lack of offensive buffs. But thats only a problem at 75 anyway, pre 75 BST owns, as does PUP, SMN, THF,etc. The problems arise because the gameplay changes at somewhere around Colibri.
Blizzard and SE use different methods to balance things. Blizzard goes all out, and obviously they have to nerf jobs as well as buff them. SE actually Thinks more than that, so there won't be nerfs, however the buffs may come too slowly. Pick your favorite system and go with that, but I wouldn't say one beats the other.
Also one more thing they said in an interview IIRC: They think they went a bit overboard with jobs in XI, so they'll have a little less of them this time so they can balance them better.. sounds good, aye?
BST just needs a niche in endgame. Very few mobs utilize BST's strengths nowadays, so adding some mobs to make BST more desireable would fix the issue without need for updates.. and BST is by no means weak, it gets A+ skill to axe as well as tons of good melee equip. The pet just isn't enough to offset the lack of offensive buffs. But thats only a problem at 75 anyway, pre 75 BST owns, as does PUP, SMN, THF,etc. The problems arise because the gameplay changes at somewhere around Colibri.
Blizzard and SE use different methods to balance things. Blizzard goes all out, and obviously they have to nerf jobs as well as buff them. SE actually Thinks more than that, so there won't be nerfs, however the buffs may come too slowly. Pick your favorite system and go with that, but I wouldn't say one beats the other.
Also one more thing they said in an interview IIRC: They think they went a bit overboard with jobs in XI, so they'll have a little less of them this time so they can balance them better.. sounds good, aye?
#11
Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:38 AM
Blizzard has a whole different class design philosophy which is: they want all classes to feel overpowered. Which is freakin awesome on the PvE side of things and FUCKING MIND BLOWINGLY INFURIATING on the PvP side ^^;
And that's actually something worth mentioning, if SE has more focus on PvP this time (as well they should because the market loves PvP) it makes these issues even more important.
Ahem.
Who knows what SE's design philosophy is... I couldn't even begin to guess.
And that's actually something worth mentioning, if SE has more focus on PvP this time (as well they should because the market loves PvP) it makes these issues even more important.
Ahem.
Who knows what SE's design philosophy is... I couldn't even begin to guess.
#12
Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:44 AM
I think it's "classes are underpowered alone, but balanced in a group" while mobs are the OP ones..
at least in FFXI! Who knows how it'll be in this one
That kinda system makes things more interesting though.. beating that OP mob with as few people as possible, it's truly a great accomplishment
Like soloing LBC, 6 manning Jormy, soloing Charybdis...beating the odds!
at least in FFXI! Who knows how it'll be in this one
That kinda system makes things more interesting though.. beating that OP mob with as few people as possible, it's truly a great accomplishment
Like soloing LBC, 6 manning Jormy, soloing Charybdis...beating the odds!
#13
Posted 09 June 2009 - 01:18 AM
I think the main reason SE chooses not to have good custumer service is because ti costs money.
I tried to make a poll about this:
http://killingifrit.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178333
it appears because people are addicted to gaming anyway people will play it regardless of the customer service, if people stop giving them money and not play the games when they choose to have low customer service, they will listen then.
I tried to make a poll about this:
http://killingifrit.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178333
it appears because people are addicted to gaming anyway people will play it regardless of the customer service, if people stop giving them money and not play the games when they choose to have low customer service, they will listen then.
#14
Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:11 AM
By "low customer service" you mean "the same customer service like in any other game, except for few exceptions"?
#15
Posted 09 June 2009 - 06:36 AM
QUOTE (Auronius @ Jun 8 2009, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok "terrible" might be an exaggeration. However, compared to how other MMO developers are pandering to their subscribers these days, SE is definitely the asshole of the MMO world.
This is a reply copy and pasted from fantastic Massively.com editorial When I was reading it, it got me excited but it got me thinking about how much we long-time FFXI take SE's bullshit for granted and if new players will be as forgiving.
It's long and whiny, and kind of exaggerates at times. But I think the message is right. I love FFXI, and SE's work, I just wish they would take a look around at how other MMOs handle what is essentially customer service.
Beautifully written and even inspirational,. I love what you said about it being designed as the best FF game to date first and an online game second since that was what really stood out to me from the press conference as well. However.
I think you're a little over-optimistic and are a tad blinded by the brand name.
Yes, they succeed profoundly at making beautiful, detailed game worlds, but looking at how they've developed FFXI compared to other MMOs on the market, they fail immensely at maintaining an MMO!
This is a reply copy and pasted from fantastic Massively.com editorial When I was reading it, it got me excited but it got me thinking about how much we long-time FFXI take SE's bullshit for granted and if new players will be as forgiving.
It's long and whiny, and kind of exaggerates at times. But I think the message is right. I love FFXI, and SE's work, I just wish they would take a look around at how other MMOs handle what is essentially customer service.
Beautifully written and even inspirational,. I love what you said about it being designed as the best FF game to date first and an online game second since that was what really stood out to me from the press conference as well. However.
I think you're a little over-optimistic and are a tad blinded by the brand name.
Yes, they succeed profoundly at making beautiful, detailed game worlds, but looking at how they've developed FFXI compared to other MMOs on the market, they fail immensely at maintaining an MMO!
I have to agree with you on the poor customer service, I mean it really wasn't ever a big deal to me because I didn't need the customer service much but I heard of a lot of people that had issues with SE.
I really don't see the customer service being any different with this new game.
Class balance in other MMOs is actually worse than FFXI in my opinion. Take WoW for example... Rogues, Warlocks, Death Knights, have been the overpowered classes since they were in existence because of their mechanics and abilities.
I have 5 level 80s two of them being the rogue and warlock and I can say they are way overpowered compared to the other classes. I wouldn't want SE doing what Blizzard does when they patch ever other week. They nerf the crap out of classes and call it 'balancing' when in reality they are just listening to whoever bitches on the forums more. This kind of 'balancing' leaves you unsure if your class will be worth a damn every other week, you might be playing a good class one day and it changes to be a horrible class the next.
^ that is a big reason I am unsure about wanting official forums because there would be so much bitching on it, that SE might feel obligated to turn patching into nerf-fest because complainers know SE is listening. Official forums would be nice in the aspect that I wouldn't have to go to unofficial sites that have possible keyloggers/spyware on them.
#16
Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:04 AM
They gimped Death Knight. 
#17
Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:13 AM
I would have to disagree with every point this WoWfan boy has to make.
Job Balancing is probably one of the most consistant things about FFXI that makes me LOVE the job system. Yes. THF, PUP, BST, can out Damage, SAM, DRK, WAR, etc. People simple don't understand that big weaponskill numbers isn't the only damage you have to count. Count the puppet, count the DOT, count the enfeebles, All of this adds up. On parsers you can really tell how closely match ANY 2 jobs compared. It's just a stigma that people put on jobs and the community accepts it and boycotts jobs. LOLDrG? Ya, not in many many years has DRG been lol.
Don't communicate? SE has had Fan Festivals with Developer Panels. They update info on website about once everyone 4-5 days. Your forums rant is valid except if you go to pol.com and go to community you litterally are directed (from SE) to over 20 different forums, strategy sites, LS webpages.
Hackers, Botters, When was last time, you had a hackers, botter mess with your ZM, ANMM, Dynamis, Limbus, Sea, Salvage, Nyzul Isle? SE has developed entire end game systems around the ability to hacker and bot.
As for keeping game mechanics a secret. That's the point. If you knew exactly have everything work, you would have people gear swapping before every steal, before every cure, before every...everything. Gear swapping now has become such an overused donkey. People switch gear so much it looks like they are blinking in a strobe light. It's not what SE intended, at least not at first. But like all good companies. SE listens to the community and observes how it plays. So now SE makes specialized gear that is situational.
Ah. Then there's another rant about AV and PW. This is what really shows people the difference between WoW and FFXI. Difficulty levels. FFXI is made to be hard. In the beginning FFXI said fuck Solo'er, it said fuck casual gamers. SE wanted FFXI to be different. It wanted it to be hard. Now I see from interviews and such FFXIV will have more content at the start for both types of players.
Bottom line is SE made the game they wanted to make. It wasn't as appealing to a broad audience because people are lazy, or they don't want to devote that much time to a game (both are perfectly fine). They have had tweaks and updates to help ease casual players into it but I think they still want to be true to the people who want the challenge. I for one love the challenge that FFXI can still bring to me on a day to day basis. So until I am sure FFXIV can offer that kind of challenge and adventure I'll be playing FFXI.
Job Balancing is probably one of the most consistant things about FFXI that makes me LOVE the job system. Yes. THF, PUP, BST, can out Damage, SAM, DRK, WAR, etc. People simple don't understand that big weaponskill numbers isn't the only damage you have to count. Count the puppet, count the DOT, count the enfeebles, All of this adds up. On parsers you can really tell how closely match ANY 2 jobs compared. It's just a stigma that people put on jobs and the community accepts it and boycotts jobs. LOLDrG? Ya, not in many many years has DRG been lol.
Don't communicate? SE has had Fan Festivals with Developer Panels. They update info on website about once everyone 4-5 days. Your forums rant is valid except if you go to pol.com and go to community you litterally are directed (from SE) to over 20 different forums, strategy sites, LS webpages.
Hackers, Botters, When was last time, you had a hackers, botter mess with your ZM, ANMM, Dynamis, Limbus, Sea, Salvage, Nyzul Isle? SE has developed entire end game systems around the ability to hacker and bot.
As for keeping game mechanics a secret. That's the point. If you knew exactly have everything work, you would have people gear swapping before every steal, before every cure, before every...everything. Gear swapping now has become such an overused donkey. People switch gear so much it looks like they are blinking in a strobe light. It's not what SE intended, at least not at first. But like all good companies. SE listens to the community and observes how it plays. So now SE makes specialized gear that is situational.
Ah. Then there's another rant about AV and PW. This is what really shows people the difference between WoW and FFXI. Difficulty levels. FFXI is made to be hard. In the beginning FFXI said fuck Solo'er, it said fuck casual gamers. SE wanted FFXI to be different. It wanted it to be hard. Now I see from interviews and such FFXIV will have more content at the start for both types of players.
Bottom line is SE made the game they wanted to make. It wasn't as appealing to a broad audience because people are lazy, or they don't want to devote that much time to a game (both are perfectly fine). They have had tweaks and updates to help ease casual players into it but I think they still want to be true to the people who want the challenge. I for one love the challenge that FFXI can still bring to me on a day to day basis. So until I am sure FFXIV can offer that kind of challenge and adventure I'll be playing FFXI.
#18
Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:24 AM
Hold on just a second there! You are kind of contradicting yourself lol
You said Rogue Warlock and DKs have been OPed since inception but Blizzard nerfs the crap out of classes constantly because of bitching on the forums
Blizzard's actually pretty good (really good) at NOT caving to bitching about OPed classes. Which, in my opinion, is a shame because when you have 1000s and 1000s of people who seem to agree that (for instance) SL/SL warlocks really SHOULDN'T be invincible AND able to melt anyone's face off with instant cast dots, then 99% of the time there is some truth behind the complaints.
Same with S3/4 druids, same with Ret Pallies, and I'm guessing same with Death Knights (although I haven't played WOTLK at all). Rogues... they go back and forth. Usually overpowered, yes, but even as a mage, i never felt they were SO horrendously unfair like Druids and Locks clearly were.
So yes, every MMO has its class balance problems. And whether or not making constant changes is really the best method of keeping them balanced is anyone's guess.
Anyway, the class balance and lack of forum issues are really 2 separate concerns. Yes, there's a lot of "nerf that class, buff my class" that can muddy up forums, but it's also a place where players can tell devs about bugs and exploits. And where devs can gauge player concerns overall. I wonder if SE would do more about botting if the magnitude of the problem could be communicated to them
Crispleaf and Hayu above said that a) they do as much as they can to combat cheating
their actions are limited by technical and legal barriers. If you visit Botgartr.org you'll see many of the number 1 offenders actually brainstorming solutions to the problem. Things like Kings spawning claimed to a random person in range, or spawning with a "Touchdown" that stuns everyone in AOE for several seconds. There are feasible work arounds but I get the sense that SE just doesn't realize how bad it's gotten because the liasons, interviewers and community site leaders are probably all guilty of at least tolerating botting themselves.
No, I won't get over it because "everyone does it, so it's ok!" and yes I'm bitter because of the dozens and dozens of hours of my life wasted in DA back in the day when not all LS's botted and the ones that did kept it a secret and douched honest, hard working players out of content and gear. I was bitter then, so imagine my surprise when I came back to the game last winter and instead of botting being a shameful secret, it's now a thuggish source of pride.
Wow, tangent. My point was that forums are for more than just bitching about class balance and there's a lot of valuable information devs could gain from players.
You said Rogue Warlock and DKs have been OPed since inception but Blizzard nerfs the crap out of classes constantly because of bitching on the forums
Blizzard's actually pretty good (really good) at NOT caving to bitching about OPed classes. Which, in my opinion, is a shame because when you have 1000s and 1000s of people who seem to agree that (for instance) SL/SL warlocks really SHOULDN'T be invincible AND able to melt anyone's face off with instant cast dots, then 99% of the time there is some truth behind the complaints.
Same with S3/4 druids, same with Ret Pallies, and I'm guessing same with Death Knights (although I haven't played WOTLK at all). Rogues... they go back and forth. Usually overpowered, yes, but even as a mage, i never felt they were SO horrendously unfair like Druids and Locks clearly were.
So yes, every MMO has its class balance problems. And whether or not making constant changes is really the best method of keeping them balanced is anyone's guess.
Anyway, the class balance and lack of forum issues are really 2 separate concerns. Yes, there's a lot of "nerf that class, buff my class" that can muddy up forums, but it's also a place where players can tell devs about bugs and exploits. And where devs can gauge player concerns overall. I wonder if SE would do more about botting if the magnitude of the problem could be communicated to them
Crispleaf and Hayu above said that a) they do as much as they can to combat cheating
their actions are limited by technical and legal barriers. If you visit Botgartr.org you'll see many of the number 1 offenders actually brainstorming solutions to the problem. Things like Kings spawning claimed to a random person in range, or spawning with a "Touchdown" that stuns everyone in AOE for several seconds. There are feasible work arounds but I get the sense that SE just doesn't realize how bad it's gotten because the liasons, interviewers and community site leaders are probably all guilty of at least tolerating botting themselves. No, I won't get over it because "everyone does it, so it's ok!" and yes I'm bitter because of the dozens and dozens of hours of my life wasted in DA back in the day when not all LS's botted and the ones that did kept it a secret and douched honest, hard working players out of content and gear. I was bitter then, so imagine my surprise when I came back to the game last winter and instead of botting being a shameful secret, it's now a thuggish source of pride.
Wow, tangent. My point was that forums are for more than just bitching about class balance and there's a lot of valuable information devs could gain from players.
#19
Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:29 AM
they made one game an MMO, give them a break its their first time
#20
Posted 09 June 2009 - 07:40 AM
Sadly those problems come from RoTZ era- when you make a system like Kings, there will be botters sooner or later, lol.
I guess we can add it to the list of "things SE didn't see coming" when they made the expansion
which IMO is the worst one out of them all just because SE couldn't see ahead (which is understandable..like colenzo said, it was their first MMO.. they were noobs when it came to endgame) but they chose to do horizontal progression which didn't really work because of the wtfpwnage equipment added in RoTZ... well, let's hope that FFXIV - The rise of the ancient race-X will do things better from the start!
I guess we can add it to the list of "things SE didn't see coming" when they made the expansion
which IMO is the worst one out of them all just because SE couldn't see ahead (which is understandable..like colenzo said, it was their first MMO.. they were noobs when it came to endgame) but they chose to do horizontal progression which didn't really work because of the wtfpwnage equipment added in RoTZ... well, let's hope that FFXIV - The rise of the ancient race-X will do things better from the start!
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