[Matsuo]

Actually, because it's fSTR2, I'm fairly certain that in situations where your attack is capped vs. mob defense, Seiryu's Kote becomes the best option for both Slug Shot and Sidewinder outright (though yes, more noticeably for Slug Shot), although by an absurdly small amount. Again, that's only in situations where you're zerging with capped Ranged Attack though, otherwise duh, Skadi > all for damage.

EDIT: page ding

[pathwriter]

pathwriter if you are wondering why this is:

Thank you, numbnuts, I knew that. You think I don't look up WS modifiers, even though I've known about the universal modifiers of archery and marksmanship weaponskills for years?

[Jiyo]

I've read that thread on Allah regarding "whats better for SW/SS", and although it is useful as a guideline, it is not completely accurate...

Using Vali's Bow+Kabura Arrow, and fighting Lvl 82 G.Colibri, per normal shot in low Def/high pDIF situations:

Scout's
(71+38+23) * [(507/327) - (.175)] = 181

Buccaneer's
(71+38+25) * [(502/327) - (.175)] = 182

The higher your Rng Att gets, the more Buccaneer's pulls "ahead". Would you agree?

Using Vali's Bow+Kabura Arrow, and fighting a Lvl 92 mob, per normal shot in high Def/low pDIF situations:

Scout's
(71+38+0) * [(407/600) - (.425)] = 27
I ignored fSTR in this case due to the mob being significantly higher level, it would also have higher VIT. It shouldn't really matter though.
(71+38+2) * [(402/600) - (.425)] = 27

The higher defense/VIT the mob gets, the closer Scout's and Buccaneer's gets to each other, with Buccaneer's being >= Scout's. Would you agree? The results should be the same for Gun/Xbow, where if you reach pDIF cap, Buccaneer's is always better and if you hit fSTR cap, Scout's will probably be better. If R.Acc is an issue, Scout's would be more of a plus, however most Rng's probably use Sushi in high lvl mob situations making Scout's for TP a little less appealing.

Now for WS. I'll just use some generic/easy numbers.

100 base STR/AGI. 500 base Rng Att. Lvl 82 G.Colibri.

Sidewinder:
Scouts
(71+38+18] + [(100*.16 + 105*.25)*.83] * 5.0 * [(507/327) - .175] = 1106
Buccaneer's
(71+38+20) + [(104*.16 + 100*.25)*.83] * 5.0 * [(502/327) - .175] = 1108

Slugshot (Hellfire+1, Silver Bullet):
Scouts
(42+81+18] + [(105*.30)*.83] * 5.0 * [(507/327) - .175] = 1141
Buccaneer's
(42+81+20) + [(100*.30)*.83] * 5.0 * [(502/327) - .175] = 1135

Buccaneer's > Scout's for TP in low Def/high pDIF situations
Buccaneer's >= Scout's for TP in high Def/low pDIF situations

Buccaneer's > Scout's for WS on Sidewinder, apply above situations for low/high pDIF
Scout's > Buccaneer's for WS on Slugshot, only when pDIF is capped/very high will Buccaneer's be better

In regards to Skadi Hands vs Seiryu's Kote...

Sidewinder:
Skadi > S.Kote if fSTR is capped
S.Kote > Skadi if pDIF is capped
Skadi > S.Kote if fSTR/pDIF is capped

Slugshot:
Skadi > S.Kote if fSTR is capped
S.Kote >= Skadi if pDIF is capped
S.Kote > Skadi if fSTR/pDIF is capped

It's a lot easier to find out whats better for YOU if you just download VZX's ranged damage calculator and plug in your stats.
In zerg fights, I would Sidewinder in S.Kote/Buccaneer's. On everything else I would WS in Skadi/Buccaneer's.

[Spider-Dan]

The higher defense/VIT the mob gets, the closer Scout's and Buccaneer's gets to each other, with Buccaneer's being >= Scout's. Would you agree? The results should be the same for Gun/Xbow, where if you reach pDIF cap, Buccaneer's is always better and if you hit fSTR cap, Scout's will probably be better. If R.Acc is an issue, Scout's would be more of a plus, however most Rng's probably use Sushi in high lvl mob situations making Scout's for TP a little less appealing.

See, that's the issue.

For high-DEF mobs (i.e. HNM) where sushi is use and Scout's accuracy advantage is unneeded, Scout's RATK bonus has more of an impact. For lower-DEF mobs, RATK is less impactful, but you aren't eating sushi.

In regards to Skadi Hands vs Seiryu's Kote...

Sidewinder:
Skadi > S.Kote if fSTR is capped
S.Kote > Skadi if pDIF is capped
Skadi > S.Kote if fSTR/pDIF is capped

Slugshot:
Skadi > S.Kote if fSTR is capped
S.Kote >= Skadi if pDIF is capped
S.Kote > Skadi if fSTR/pDIF is capped

How can the above three scenarios be true? If fSTR is capped, one of Skadi's main benefits (STR+5) is eliminated.

[Jiyo]

See, that's the issue.

For high-DEF mobs (i.e. HNM) where sushi is use and Scout's accuracy advantage is unneeded, Scout's RATK bonus has more of an impact. For lower-DEF mobs, RATK is less impactful, but you aren't eating sushi.


How can the above three scenarios be true? If fSTR is capped, one of Skadi's main benefits (STR+5) is eliminated.

Scout's RATK bonus will have more of an impact if your own RATK is pretty low, that's for sure. I only used my example to show that it's pretty much on par with Buccaneer's in low RATK situations (WS's may differ). However there should never be an instance where your RATK is that significantly low or you have absolutely no outside support (Dia, Angon, Songs, Rolls, Food). I should have phrased it "The lower your RATK is, the more Scout's and Buccaneer's are equal, with Scout's pulling ahead as your RATK gets lower. When your RATK increases, Scout's slowly falls behind Buccaneer's". On something like JoL, if you're shooting on your own, Scout's will probably be better. If you have Dia+Brd+Cor with you, Buccaneer's will probably be better.

On high VIT/DEF mobs,
Scout's >= Buccaneer's if you have no outside support
Buccaneer's >= Scout's if you have outside support

On high VIT/DEF mobs, you're basically choosing between -4 Enmity or 7 R.Acc. I personally TP in Buccaneer's, Barrage in Scout's and WS in Buccaneer's.

On low VIT/DEF mobs,
Buccaneer's > Scout's with or without support

Lets see,

1) If fSTR is capped on Sidewinder, Skadi pulls ahead of S.Kote still due to WSC and the pDIF increase from 10 R.Att

2) This one is wrong, S.Kote > Skadi if fSTR/pDIF are capped on Sidewinder, my mistake

3) This one varies. If your RATK/pDIF is low, S.Kote will better for Slugshot than Skadi in capped fSTR situations. If your RATK/pDIF is high, Skadi will do better than S.Kote. So like from the example above with JoL, no support = S.Kote, full support = Skadi.

[Matsuo]

Sidewinder:
S.Kote > Skadi if pDIF is capped

Slugshot:
S.Kote >= Skadi if pDIF is capped

Not that it's a huge deal, since Seiryu's Kote comes out on top either way, but aren't they further ahead in terms of Slug Shot damage due to the lack of STR in the WSC when you're no longer worried about Ranged Attack?

[Spider-Dan]

Oh, and as for the argument that every RNG should "easily" break 110 STR:


104 total STR

I have 4/5 STR merits and I could drop Cassie for another Triumph. If I replace Scout's with Bucc., that puts me at 110 on the nose (again, with maxed STR merits).

Any other upgrade is either extremely time-consuming/expensive (Skadi hands, wyvern+1, hachiryu legs) or downright idiotic (e.g. trade RATK+12 feet for STR+3, trade RATK+15 back for 3 more STR).

[Jiyo]

Not that it's a huge deal, since Seiryu's Kote comes out on top either way, but aren't they further ahead in terms of Slug Shot damage due to the lack of STR in the WSC when you're no longer worried about Ranged Attack?

It's not that big of an advantage really. In this situation, fSTR isn't capped so you get 2-3 points added to your weapon damage from the 5 STR on Skadi, and the 5 AGI may or may not give you another point added to your weapon damage. S.Kote by themselves usually only add 3 to your weapon damage.

Oh, and as for the argument that every RNG should "easily" break 110 STR:


104 total STR

I have 4/5 STR merits and I could drop Cassie for another Triumph. If I replace Scout's with Bucc., that puts me at 110 on the nose (again, with maxed STR merits).

Any other upgrade is either extremely time-consuming/expensive (Skadi hands, wyvern+1, hachiryu legs) or downright idiotic (e.g. trade RATK+12 feet for STR+3, trade RATK+15 back for 3 more STR).

omg only 104 STR you're gimp etc etc
Also, I hate you because you have Scout's Socks+1

[Spider-Dan]

3) This one varies. If your RATK/pDIF is low, S.Kote will better for Slugshot than Skadi in capped fSTR situations. If your RATK/pDIF is high, Skadi will do better than S.Kote. So like from the example above with JoL, no support = S.Kote, full support = Skadi.

This doesn't make sense.

The impact of +RATK bonuses will increase as RATK values decrease (and vice versa). If S.Kote beats Skadi (when fSTR is capped) under low RATK conditions, how can it possibly lose under high RATK conditions?

[Matsuo]

It's not that big of an advantage really.

Absolutely this!

In this situation, fSTR isn't capped so you get 2-3 points added to your weapon damage from the 5 STR on Skadi, and the 5 AGI may or may not give you another point added to your weapon damage. S.Kote by themselves usually only add 3 to your weapon damage.

My point is more towards the comparison you made. You're getting the benefits to fSTR from Skadi to both WS's, but the AGI from S. Kote is helping Slug Shot slightly more, while Slug is getting slightly less from Skadi's STR than Sidewinder because it doesn't have the 16% WSC. That's all... I'm a freak, I know it.

[Jiyo]

This doesn't make sense.

The impact of +RATK bonuses will increase as RATK values decrease (and vice versa). If S.Kote beats Skadi (when fSTR is capped) under low RATK conditions, how can it possibly lose under high RATK conditions?

I somehow mixed up my SW/SS data together in that explanation. To get back to the main dispute you had with my earlier statement [Skadi > S.Kote if fSTR is capped for Slugshot, how can that be true?], it's still better because of the R.Att. It's not as better compared to Sidewinder's boost from Skadi, only a few points of damage in the end, however it still has a damage edge. It's 10 AGI (2 weapon damage) vs 10 R.Att. Skadi will be even better when fSTR isn't capped (which is most situations), so you should basically Slugshot everything in Skadi if pDIF isn't capped, and assuming your R.Acc is fine.

My point is more towards the comparison you made. You're getting the benefits to fSTR from Skadi to both WS's, but the AGI from S. Kote is helping Slug Shot slightly more, while Slug is getting slightly less from Skadi's STR than Sidewinder because it doesn't have the 16% WSC. That's all... I'm a freak, I know it.

Yes >_ >?

[Kittyo]

rangers suck

[Fla$h619]

orly