[rambus]

I have a few questions about this.

where is it best used?

is it worth going 5/5 in MAB merit then 5/5 to the matching san spell? ( I do not care about tool merit i want performance)

and does INT effect these? like elemental magic?

[Ashokan]

I don't know a lot about ninja nuking @ 75. I'm not sure a lot of people here would know either. The most I've really seen it applied is a friend duo'd Ullikummi as NIN/BLM with a RDM. I'm not sure he if he fully merited his NIN for nuking.

and does INT effect these? like elemental magic?

It's calculated just like a regular nuke. Calculating Magic Damage @ Wikia. The base value and multiplier are listed. That will probably help you a little with your other questions.

[Nattack]

from what I understand, Ni nukes will outdo San nukes overtime. but thats just from word of mouth. High cost, low reward. It works wonders in a few capped BC's. (UO) but at 75 not so much.

though there are stories of getting the nukes up to nearly 500 damage a pop. i dont know if thats San or Ni, assuming san

[pathwriter]

though there are stories of getting the nukes up to nearly 500 damage a pop. i dont know if thats San or Ni, assuming san

I'll believe that when I see it. It probably involves Wizard's Roll with a Black Mage in the party, among other things, which implies a situation where a Ninja is probably better of meleeing, anyhow.

[evilpaul]

I'd go /RDM over /BLM, personally. Fast Cast helps out a bit and the sub provides only 4 less MAB.

500 damage :San spell...probably not. I think the most I managed to get up to was like 350 on mobs outside Bastok. Not maxxed out in merits or gear, but it's not like you're going to land 300 damage :Sans on anything worth a piss anyway.

[rambus]

from what I understand, Ni nukes will outdo San nukes overtime. but thats just from word of mouth. High cost, low reward. It works wonders in a few capped BC's. (UO) but at 75 not so much.

though there are stories of getting the nukes up to nearly 500 damage a pop. i dont know if thats San or Ni, assuming san

M = 1.0 for all Ichi and Ni Ninjitsu Spells
M = 1.5 for all San Ninjitsu Spells

base is 78 vs 105 meaning a san spell will cream a NI spell for damage but what si recast? am i better off unlocking them all with 1 and have 1 to 5 or?

ill have to see what int gear NIN can use and what i can get up too.

however, bases like that i consider pretty low so stuff with high int this would not be good to do

I can do everything by formula now once i learn what NIN has access too.

offtopic rant. fucking helix is wrong

[Nattack]

I dunno man i just write the stories i dont make them o_o

[evilpaul]

base is 78 vs 105 meaning a san spell will cream a NI spell for damage but what si recast? am i better off unlocking them all with 1 and have 1 to 5 or?

ill have to see what int gear NIN can use and what i can get up too.

however, bases like that i consider pretty low so stuff with high int this would not be good to do

I can do everything by formula now once i learn what NIN has access too.

offtopic rant. fucking helix is wrong

With capped recasts you can basically spam the Ni spells continuously. :San spells have a 60 second recast.

This is the best I could come up with.

INT+50, MAB+20, 5% damage bonus (relic head), 15% damage bonus (HQ staves). The hands are Hume RSE, there's also the INT+1 Garrison ones. I'd probably use relic hands for spamming Ninjutsu if I had them just because I'm a cheap bastard and tools are expensive.

I'm going to guess that because MAB has diminishing returns you'd be better off getting Level 2 in some of the spells and level 1 in the rest unless whatever you're planning on fighting is particularly resistant to a particular element.

As NIN/BLM at 75 with 5/5 INT merits I've got 72+35 INT, 20 MAB, HQ staff. I cast Burn on a Huge Hornet and then Hyoton: Ni and :San. No merits in group 1. Only one merit in Hyoton: San.

Hyoton: Ni did 293 damage.

Hyoton: San did 436 damage.

So doing 500 damage on a level 0 mob is plausible I'd say with better gear and merits. Particularly if you maxxed out one category.

My PS2 is being a cunt and overheating constantly, so I can't test further today.

I doubt my LS would let me show up NIN to much of anything much less come /RDM or /BLM, so I'll leave the trailblazing to someone else.

[rambus]

With capped recasts you can basically spam the Ni spells continuously. :San spells have a 60 second recast.

This is the best I could come up with.

INT+50, MAB+20, 5% damage bonus (relic head), 15% damage bonus (HQ staves). The hands are Hume RSE, there's also the INT+1 Garrison ones. I'd probably use relic hands for spamming Ninjutsu if I had them just because I'm a cheap bastard and tools are expensive.

I'm going to guess that because MAB has diminishing returns you'd be better off getting Level 2 in some of the spells and level 1 in the rest unless whatever you're planning on fighting is particularly resistant to a particular element.

As NIN/BLM at 75 with 5/5 INT merits I've got 72+35 INT, 20 MAB, HQ staff. I cast Burn on a Huge Hornet and then Hyoton: Ni and :San. No merits in group 1. Only one merit in Hyoton: San.

Hyoton: Ni did 293 damage.

Hyoton: San did 436 damage.

So doing 500 damage on a level 0 mob is plausible I'd say with better gear and merits. Particularly if you maxxed out one category.

My PS2 is being a cunt and overheating constantly, so I can't test further today.

I doubt my LS would let me show up NIN to much of anything much less come /RDM or /BLM, so I'll leave the trailblazing to someone else.

when in the fuck does MAB have "diminishing returns"?

[(107-1)*1+78]*1.15*1.44=303
[(107-1)*1.5+105]*1.15*1.44=436

something wrong with NI

insert this:

INT+50, MAB+20, 5% damage bonus

[(122-1)*1+78]*1.15*1.05*1.44=344

[(122-1)*1.5+105]*1.15*1.05*1.44=495

what this would look like on an imp on mire:


[(122-110)*1+78]*1.15*1.05*1.44=155

[(122-110)*1.5+105]*1.15*1.05*1.44=213

pudding:


[(122-89)*1+78]*1.15*1.05*1.44*1.25=238

[(122-89)*1.5+105]*1.15*1.05*1.44*1.25=332

kirin ( i think i do not know how neg differences work)

[(122-149)*0.5+78]*1.15*1.05*1.44=110

[(122-149)*0.5+105]*1.15*1.05*1.44=156

^ should be noted that something like maats cap is better in situations like this over the 5% esp if you can push your Dint to be positive.

as long as your Dint is not negitive this may be viable to do since you can spam these like a machine gun

[evilpaul]

You have 0 MAB. You add 10 MAB. You get a 10% increase in damage.

You have 10 MAB. You add 10 more MAB. You get less than a 10% increase in damage.

Your first return, 10%, is greater than your second return, less than 10%.

[Nattack]

that doesnt compute well with me, sounds like 20 mab isnt really 20 mab the way you put it. care to elaborate

[rambus]

that doesnt compute well with me, sounds like 20 mab isnt really 20 mab the way you put it. care to elaborate

he talking about the after effect the final damage output. ( that view is a misguided, mis judgment on how math works though)

exmaples:

adding 10 MAB:

100 *10 = 110 ( 10% in increase in final damage)

100*20 =120 ( 20% in increase in final damage)

110 vs 120.

the second 10 mab only added 9% damage compared to 110.

however 20 MAB still added 20% damage compared to what it was suppose to do.

no matter if your comparing adding 20 mab first time around vs 80 in final damage output, that 80 MAB still improves base damage by 80% but the final output comparison will not look like that, i/e 80 mab will not look like it added 60% damage to the 20 mab cast.

staff and weather and other and such outside bonus heighten that mis judgment since they are mulip0lied on top of the mab.

people tried this shit on the blm board. these facts I explained also leads to the mis guided views that high MAB staffs out do ele staffs because they think 25 is a bigger number then 15% ( see SE is a crappy MNO developer thread for more examples of that)

[evilpaul]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

You get less of a percentage increase in damage as you continue to add more MAB.

It's why when people say "Moldavite Earring boosts a BLM's damage by 5%!!!" they're wrong. BLM has 32 MAB to start with at 75. Going from a 1.32x multiplier on spell damage to a 1.37x multiplier isn't going to provide a 5% boost.

A spell that does 1000 damage with no MAB would do 1320 cast by an otherwise naked BLM. Slap on a MAB+5 earring and it would do 1370.

1370 / 1320 = 1.0378787878787878787878787878788 = ~3.8% increase.

Because of this it would seem to me that maxxing out only two element's group 1 merits would result in less overall damage assuming all six elements are effective on your target mob(s). As compared to putting two merits into four groups and one into the remaining two.

Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't see anyone providing any numbers or reasons to believe so.

[rambus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

You get less of a percentage increase in damage as you continue to add more MAB.

It's why when people say "Moldavite Earring boosts a BLM's damage by 5%!!!" they're wrong. BLM has 32 MAB to start with at 75. Going from a 1.32x multiplier on spell damage to a 1.37x multiplier isn't going to provide a 5% boost.

A spell that does 1000 damage with no MAB would do 1320 cast by an otherwise naked BLM. Slap on a MAB+5 earring and it would do 1370.

1370 / 1320 = 1.0378787878787878787878787878788 = ~3.8% increase.

Because of this it would seem to me that maxxing out only two element's group 1 merits would result in less overall damage assuming all six elements are effective on your target mob(s). As compared to putting two merits into four groups and one into the remaining two.

Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't see anyone providing any numbers or reasons to believe so.

you are mis using things.

Suppose that one kilogram of seed applied to a plot of land of a fixed size produces one ton of crop. You might expect that an additional kilogram of seed would produce an additional ton of output. However, if there are diminishing marginal returns, that additional kilogram will produce less than one additional ton of crop (on the same land, during the same growing season, and with nothing else but the amount of seeds planted changing). For example, the second kilogram of seed may only produce a half ton of extra output. Diminishing marginal returns also implies that a third kilogram of seed will produce an additional crop that is even less than a half ton of additional output. Assume that it is one quarter of a ton.

In economics, the term "marginal" is used to mean on the edge of productivity in a production system. The difference in the investment of seed in these three scenarios is one kilogram — "marginal investment in seed is one kilogram." And the difference in output, the crops, is one ton for the first kilogram of seeds, a half ton for the second kilogram, and one quarter of a ton for the third kilogram. Thus, the marginal physical product (MPP) of the seed will fall as the total amount of seed planted rises. In this example, the marginal product (or return) equals the extra amount of crop produced divided by the extra amount of seeds planted.

A consequence of diminishing marginal returns is that as total investment increases, the total return on investment as a proportion of the total investment (the average product or return) decreases. The return from investing the first kilogram is 1 t/kg. The total return when 2 kg of seed are invested is 1.5/2 = 0.75 t/kg, while the total return when 3 kg are invested is 1.75/3 = 0.58 t/kg.

if we took BLM for exmpale, use a base of 1000 w/e

add 10 MAB:

1000*1.10=1100

add 20 MAB:

1000*1.20=1200

every 10 mab is giving 100 damage ( it does not diminish) I have not found one thing where you get diminishing returns on MAB, can on INT however.
unlike quoted it said the second ton only gave .75kg, if it was MAB it would still be 1 to 1

you are confusing diminishing returns with compering final output damage.

that is not how you impurt math, people say mov earing gives them 5% damage are right in a way

it gives them 5% damage to the BASE, NOT FINAL output!

I want 10% of 1000 i get 1100, i changed my mind and say i want 5% more i would get 1150, i dont care about the prev output, just that i got 15% instend of 10%, not 5% on top of 10% (1155)

[evilpaul]

Adding 100 to a very small number is a bigger boost than adding 100 to 50,000,000,000. Every 100 you add is the same size increase of 100. But the percentage increase becomes smaller and smaller. That's called diminishing returns.

[rambus]

Adding 100 to a very small number is a bigger boost than adding 100 to 50,000,000,000. Every 100 you add is the same size increase of 100. But the percentage increase becomes smaller and smaller. That's called diminishing returns.

no it is not, your confusing FINAL OUTPUT compersions.

I say i need 10% of $50 000 000 000 in my sales fees.

i get 5 000 000 000

I do some reaersh and tell them i need 15% insted:

7 500 000 000

what i am not getting is 5% on top of the 10% something you are confusing with diminishing returns:
7 875 000 000

this is diminishing returns:
and you ref this

Suppose that one kilogram of seed applied to a plot of land of a fixed size produces one ton of crop. You might expect that an additional kilogram of seed would produce an additional ton of output. However, if there are diminishing marginal returns, that additional kilogram will produce less than one additional ton of crop (on the same land, during the same growing season, and with nothing else but the amount of seeds planted changing). For example, the second kilogram of seed may only produce a half ton of extra output. Diminishing marginal returns also implies that a third kilogram of seed will produce an additional crop that is even less than a half ton of additional output. Assume that it is one quarter of a ton.

In economics, the term "marginal" is used to mean on the edge of productivity in a production system. The difference in the investment of seed in these three scenarios is one kilogram — "marginal investment in seed is one kilogram." And the difference in output, the crops, is one ton for the first kilogram of seeds, a half ton for the second kilogram, and one quarter of a ton for the third kilogram. Thus, the marginal physical product (MPP) of the seed will fall as the total amount of seed planted rises. In this example, the marginal product (or return) equals the extra amount of crop produced divided by the extra amount of seeds planted.

A consequence of diminishing marginal returns is that as total investment increases, the total return on investment as a proportion of the total investment (the average product or return) decreases. The return from investing the first kilogram is 1 t/kg. The total return when 2 kg of seed are invested is 1.5/2 = 0.75 t/kg, while the total return when 3 kg are invested is 1.75/3 = 0.58 t/kg.

if that bold was MAB concept will still be 1 to 1 not 1 to .5 that averages to .75, and thus does not fit the defined of diminishing returns, like i said INT can do that however.

here is what a 1 to 1 graph looks like:



every time you up it by 10 mab the output ratio would be the same ( the spacing going up on y is the same progress on the x , 10 mab giving 10 more damage hence the 1:1 ratio that would make a graph look like this) comparing final output increases is a different conspet and is not reflected here nor in the meaning of diminishing returns.

not what the crop is doing ( true diminishing returns):


this is what a graph looks like when it goes though a positive diminishing return. the first ratio is 1:1, the second is 1:2, and the third is 1:4

the line that has the higher output (3:3 line) is MAB, paint is not letting me change the colour:



something that does not have diminish return ( straight line/ MAB) , vs the crop example you linked that does.

no matter how you label the graphs or the amount of damage/ mab compare, mab will still be straight like that while crop will arc ( because of the diminished return)

int can diminish on tair I spells so fast there is a point where more INT nets zero damage and would look like this on a graph:

[Jaceric]

Rambus is right.

It "would only" be diminishing returns if each additional percentage of MATB yields progressively smaller damage.

Example of Diminishing Returns

1000 base damage

10% MATB - 1100
20% MATB - 1150
30% MATB - 1175
40% MATB - 1192


And since that is in contrary to what the added damage MATB provide, this is not a case of diminishing marginal returns.


/end terminology debate.




Interesting thread though.

I'd like to see some damage screenshots of nuking NIN.

[Nattack]

MAB is linear, as far as i know.


things with curves have diminishing returns. such as Skill, Stats (INT, STR), women


things that go up in a line are static increases, such as acc, attack, MAB, and such. but they usually have a cap set in place (95% acc cap for instance)

[Fla$h619]

no it is not, your confusing FINAL OUTPUT compersions.

I say i need 10% of $50 000 000 000 in my sales fees.

i get 5 000 000 000

I do some reaersh and tell them i need 15% insted:

7 500 000 000

what i am not getting is 5% on top of the 10% something you are confusing with diminishing returns:
7 875 000 000

this is diminishing returns:
and you ref this



if that bold was MAB concept will still be 1 to 1 not 1 to .5 that averages to .75, and thus does not fit the defined of diminishing returns, like i said INT can do that however.

here is what a 1 to 1 graph looks like:



every time you up it by 10 mab the output ratio would be the same ( the spacing going up on y is the same progress on the x , 10 mab giving 10 more damage hence the 1:1 ratio that would make a graph look like this) comparing final output increases is a different conspet and is not reflected here nor in the meaning of diminishing returns.

not what the crop is doing ( true diminishing returns):


this is what a graph looks like when it goes though a positive diminishing return. the first ratio is 1:1, the second is 1:2, and the third is 1:4

the line that has the higher output (3:3 line) is MAB, paint is not letting me change the colour:



something that does not have diminish return ( straight line/ MAB) , vs the crop example you linked that does.

no matter how you label the graphs or the amount of damage/ mab compare, mab will still be straight like that while crop will arc ( because of the diminished return)

int can diminish on tair I spells so fast there is a point where more INT nets zero damage and would look like this on a graph:

COOL GRAPHS BRO

[Nattack]

X = some unknown factor
Y = some unknown factor that increases!