[treelo]

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And versus a good sam? You believe that a DRK, DRG, MNK, WAR or any other DD job can keep up with the TP gain and damage output of a SAM who does his/her job well?

Nice of you to abruptly change your approach when confronted with the obvious fallacy of your original point. Given the correct situation, yes, I'm confident that a good DD can match a good SAM. Especially DRK. I mean really...

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That's crazy. 6 years and I've never met a NIN than can hold hate as well as me. I'll agree with you on a few pages back, they're good as support tanks at higher levels.
Of course, I haven't PTed with enough NINs since their update to see a difference but so far, they still have issues holding tanks in party situations.

That's funny. In the years that I've had both PLD and NIN levelled, I was capable of holding hate just fine, even when stood alongside some great PLDs. I didn't say anything about NIN being a co-tank, that was someone else. I view both jobs fairly evenly in most situations, which is about the truth of the matter. PLD only wins through in most people's eyes because of their self-reliance when it comes to healing. Your points about EXP are semi-valid, while it may be more difficult for a NIN to hold hate effectively, a good one will slash your down time in half. Just because you've never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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Not alot of Linkshells that lowman these days. I've seen very little practical use in HNM situations, however they have their place in Salvage.

I had to laugh at your first comment. I said myself their applications are limited, that doesn't mean they aren't a good job. Personally, I'm not a fan, but given a good DNC I'm sure I could work something out.

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I'm told this by many thfs but much like pup... i dont see good ones running around.

You're talking to one now, and a number of others post here regularly. I said it myself, and someone else was kind enough to warn you, that really isn't an argument you want to find yourself in. For now, see my earlier comment about not seeing things happen.

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Considering AM is useless I can see them doing the job of a blm, I dont see SCH getting the potency and effect gear WHM gets though. the stoneskin buff is damned useful too

With AoE Stoneskin and Phalanx, the amount of damage your entire party is taking is so drastically reduced that the additional power behind a WHM's cures, not to mention their added effect of stoneskin, are merely a nice addition, rather than the making or breaking of the comparison. Being in the only party to contain a SCH through an Einherjar run with a fuckton of Skeletons, it was flagrantly obvious that we were taking substantially less damage from the constant AoEs than anyone else, and didn't once come close to dropping far below 50% HP. A quick glance at the rest of our alliance showed most DDs remaining around the 50% or lower mark for the entire run, with things getting incredibly dicey as MP became an increasing problem.

In the end, no job fails on it's own. The players make of each one what they will, and the majority will fail regardless of how great or bad their chosen job is.

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I dunno, this part I have problems with. Mostly because I find it hard to believe SE made a job that was designed to solo in a game that's 95% teamwork.

I'm not sure what the original purpose of the job was supposed to be, but certainly by the time I began playing it had already been billed as the solo job. Almost every game has one.

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I think this guy is a troll too... Basing his very little experience vs what really goes on seems a bit one sided. Anyone who has actually partied with the jobs we've discussed will pretty much agree that's Failbait.

Curious whom you're actually referring to here.

[.Sotek.]

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I mean... you CAN level other jobs but seriously these above mentioned jobs will ALWAYS take priority.

No they wont. Your LS would have to be awful for them to demand everyone with those jobs to come as those jobs.
I'm actually amazed you listed RDM without /DRK, or BLU for that matter. I mean honestly, it's bad enough you put SAM/NIN down.

[Corrderio]

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I'm not sure what the original purpose of the job was supposed to be, but certainly by the time I began playing it had already been billed as the solo job. Almost every game has one.

BST has always had a hard time ever since it's release, I remember someone making a post on BG about it.

[Griss]

in before charm use to be on a 15 minute timer, xp was generally on t-vtish mobs with charm ables normally near by yada yada bst has been turned into a solo job by the community's accepted play style bla bla bla pup can nuke on par with blm's on most mobs and with add its mostly hate free and no worries about mp cost bla bla bla

end of post yes

[Forgotten_Memory]

BST. That is the answer we may now close this thread.

[Azarall]

Wait wait wait. I had a larger reply typed out but then again I've realized anything Treelo tends to post is "you're wrong you don't know anything" and he doesn't feel like giving examples. This thread is about failed jobs. If you wanna brag about your THF go to the Thief thread but since I picked up my copy in 2003 Samurai has remained one of the top consistent DDs, with jobs like DRG, MNK, DRK, and RNG jumping all over the place with each update and expansion, and that apart from TH4 and sack-pulling in lolDyna, I've never seen a good use for a thief. I'm glad my post made you laugh but in the end, if you had PUP, THF, SAM and BLU leveled, MOST of the time (unless your LS is just gonna keep throwing DDs at something or there are no other THFs) You're going to be asked to come as SAM/THF. Tell me I'm wrong, fine... but I've been in enough linkshells and 4 servers to know otherwise.

-The End

[Yoona]

Corolie, on 16 June 2009 - 02:10 PM, said:

I love mostly all the jobs in FFXI, but some of these classes were either half asssed done or gimped like it was no tomorrow. Really hoping that they either change the mechanics of these classes in FFXIV or just remove them completely:

4. Scholar - Looks like SE got the weather wrong when they made this job cause it seems like a rip off caster version of rdm. Only thing good about this job is the cute AF other then that I won't mess with this job play the real deals like rdm , blm or whm if u wanna go that route. Kinda wished they made another tanking class since Wotg is in a war setting after all ROFL!!

3. Gimped Ranger- Nothing much I can say with this one other then by the fact they're useless as heck when it comes to parties and endgame rofl. If anyone plays this job that far that is hmmm...... >.>. THF already rules when it comes to pulling mobs , and we already got blms as a dmg back line that does 10X more dmg then this poor job =(.

2. Puppetmaster- Don't believe them when they say there's no strings attached when you unlock this job cause their is. Monks laugh hard when they see poor noobs leveling it >.> Well you do get a cute toy to pay with however he's automaton cost way too much to make this job worth while. Plus when the toy breaks down you'll have to wait heck of long to get him back before you can summon him again D: by that time the gobbies have already eaten you for lunch.

1. Ninjas - SE was smart when they designed the 2hr for this job boooooom wooooot that worthless tank is finally dead <img src="http://killingifrit.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> , but lets be real this class is useless no matter how high you lv it hahahaha real men don't need to hide behind their shadows, but sadly it seems that way with this job. Well the only thing this job is good at is for sub jobs ,and getting parties wiped in dynamis cause they sure can't keep the hate to save their lives......

I stopped reading after i saw scholar. Scholar is probably one of the absolutely best designed jobs in the game. Yes it has a similar spell list to RDM WHM and BLM however, it has its own unique spells and a very different playstyle. BLM for instance is all about maximizing your damage per nuke. SCH is much more about conserving MP so you can cast more spells. Stratagems makes SCH a very unique job. I dont even know what else to say.

[Griss]

Azarall, on 03 November 2009 - 12:40 PM, said:

I've seen pups say something along the lines of "every 20 seconds" but any time I've invited one they've never been able to do more than the RNG or SAM in that group.

speaking as a mildly competent pup, its been my experience that in merit party situations i am able to hold my own in the damage department that being between myself and my automaton i am able to output a respectable amount of damage. in early to mid game the sharp shot is on par with a ranger dd wise right up untill rng gets barrage and access to slugwinder after that it falls behind but still manages to hold its own. while i know the current wisdom is for sams to use a polarm and penta spam on birds for merits, a gkt using sam using gekko can lead to some really nice armor piercers. but that's sort of outside of the scope of the debate as it is under the purview of teamwork and not the e-peen parse wars that this debate springs from.

in its current incarnation pup really shines in nuking applications where we are free to get into our a.d.d cycle. in that style of play it is even more of a glass cannon then a blm, one inopportune scratch at the wrong time will put us out of commission for 20 min. how ever nuke for nuke a properly rigged auto can keep up with a well geared blm, and with proper control can out damage said blm in the long run via refreshing its mp pool every other nuke via add and not having to worry to much about emnity as all its generated hate vanishes when it is deactivated. there are up's and downs to it like any other job, its just that there is a bit of a learning curve to it. and a rather large upfront cost in attachments alone. no matter what is said or shown people will still lol out of ignorance. because it is popular wisdom that it in of its self is a weak job the same can be said about all the jobs listed in the op. but ya know what every job has had the lol stigma attached to it in some form at one point or another. even the communities current darling, sam

[Ezekial]

OP is fucking retarded.

[fyreus]

treelo, on 02 November 2009 - 06:00 PM, said:

Curious whom you're actually referring to here.

The guy above my previous post. I think his 'on and off' may be anywheres from NA release to 2 months after NA release and WOTG release and a few months ago since that's also along the lines of what he said and what we've read.

I'm waiting for more blanket statements.

[Azarall]

Griss, on 03 November 2009 - 02:10 PM, said:

speaking as a mildly competent pup, its been my experience that in merit party situations i am able to hold my own in the damage department that being between myself and my automaton i am able to output a respectable amount of damage. in early to mid game the sharp shot is on par with a ranger dd wise right up untill rng gets barrage and access to slugwinder after that it falls behind but still manages to hold its own. while i know the current wisdom is for sams to use a polarm and penta spam on birds for merits, a gkt using sam using gekko can lead to some really nice armor piercers. but that's sort of outside of the scope of the debate as it is under the purview of teamwork and not the e-peen parse wars that this debate springs from.

in its current incarnation pup really shines in nuking applications where we are free to get into our a.d.d cycle. in that style of play it is even more of a glass cannon then a blm, one inopportune scratch at the wrong time will put us out of commission for 20 min. how ever nuke for nuke a properly rigged auto can keep up with a well geared blm, and with proper control can out damage said blm in the long run via refreshing its mp pool every other nuke via add and not having to worry to much about emnity as all its generated hate vanishes when it is deactivated. there are up's and downs to it like any other job, its just that there is a bit of a learning curve to it. and a rather large upfront cost in attachments alone. no matter what is said or shown people will still lol out of ignorance. because it is popular wisdom that it in of its self is a weak job the same can be said about all the jobs listed in the op. but ya know what every job has had the lol stigma attached to it in some form at one point or another. even the communities current darling, sam

I can admit that I've never actually seen or had a pup come to a group as a nuker (They don't get many chances to nuke since most exp pts are vs birds) and anytime I'm with pups its in dynamis where theres too many damage dealers to even keep track of a single player's damage output.. I took my pup to 15 so I could understand the costs and effort that goes into pup (indeed, plenty of work and money)

If you ever have a chance, upload some nuke parse/recordings and post them up. I've retired from FFXI but I still like to keep up with the updates.

[Velhart]

Never seen a PUP nuke, everytime I have had a PUP in my party, they would just melee everything and rarely make their puppet do something.

[TresDuendes]

SAM/THF? Are you serious?

[Amastacia]

I love troll threads. So much lulz.

But if I have to be serious, I'm afraid I need to ask the people still thinking NIN isn't gimp to wake up and play FFXI in 2009. And this coming from someone who enjoys NIN more than any job in FFXI by miles, and has spent more time/gil gearing it and (hopefully) learning to play it well than most.

1) Endgame. Second class tank on anything newer than CoP content, because SE finally wised up to how powerful Utsusemi and Stun were on their older boss monsters. More magic damage, more shadow-stripping AoEs, fast-casting -ga spells, Stun resistance. On older stuff it's beast because it's simple to take little damage, Stun-lock everything, and park merrily at the hate cap.

Enmity generation has never been NIN's Achilles' heel (at least not since SJs other than WAR became common for tanking), but rather its fragility once shadows are out of the picture, and complete lack of safety net. You have to be on-edge constantly while tanking anything of note, and one small mistake can be fatal. PLD, especially with Atonement and Cure swaps, generates hate just as well, mitigates damage better, and puts less of a burden on support.

Yes, for certain fights NIN/DRK and NIN/RDM are still great choices. Most of those fights were introduced by 2006 at the latest. For the last 3 years PLD has been repeatedly buffed and HNM-style content has been developed to marginalize the overpowered nature of Utsusemi. Sure, a good NIN beats an average PLD, but I virtually guarantee you take any NIN who is still competitive as a tank, put them behind the wheel of a properly geared PLD, and give them a little time and guidance to learn the ropes, and they'll tank rings around themselves.

And yes, a NIN can still work fine if you have to use it. But there is no sane reason to ever willingly choose a NIN over a PLD if there isn't a tremendous delta in skill and/or gear when approaching any moderately new content. I love PLD + NIN as a pair for anything CoP-and-earlier, but the first thing I look for when doing anything more recent is a 2nd PLD.

2) XP, pre-75. Yonin helped. But not enough. NIN can't output enough damage to tank effectively against competent 2h DDs (or post-semi-unnerf RNGs). A really good one can just about struggle to get by, but being even remotely average means they have no chance. Conveniently for NIN, many 2h DDs are incompetent, but that doesn't mean that they're fine when a good one comes along.

3) Merits. Low end of the spectrum, with all other 1h DDs. Occasionally useful, but never present in any really good merit party. I'd be willing to bet my NIN could thump most 2h DDs, the problem is that I can walk back into my Mog House, change jobs to SAM, and shit all over anything my NIN could do in a merit party.

4) The "anything you can do, I can do better" argument. With some caveats, anything a really good NIN could do, they could do even better by changing jobs, provided those other jobs have access to equivalent gear and are given proper attention to detail. A goodly fraction of top NIN DD gear transfers to WAR or SAM, either of which is capable of much higher damage output if you need a DD. The same manic use of gear changes and precise timing required to be a stellar tank transfers perfectly to PLD with even better results.

[ironwall]

4.

[Azarall]

Um... yeah. SAM/THF. If you've ever even BEEN in an HNMLS, it's a pretty popular combo.

Amastacia said all that can be said about NIN. Frankly, there's enough haste and fast cast gear available to PLD that when I was required to kite or blink tank anything, I could do it just as easily, if not better. But whatever... "mah nin uz kewlar than ur lolpld" Cause +48 Enmity and full advantage of /RDM means nothing to a troll.

[Velhart]

As much as NIN tanking still rocks even today, I still wish SE would give a better update to them to allow them to be on par with the other DD's, or give them throwing tools that are worth throwing. But in all fairness, I still see good NIN's deal out some good WS damage.

[Myhnegon]

Actually the WS dmg is what NINs lacking at compared to other 1h DDs, and actually 1h DDs only on the low spectrum vs Birds, Mamools is a different story

[Tikki]

Azarall, on 06 November 2009 - 09:50 AM, said:

SAM/THF.

Seriously, saying all other phsyical DD are gimped compared to /thf of all things, you are pretty damn retarded. Last I checked, hnm aren't the only thing in the game. They aren't even the only endgame. No, not even the only endgame that counts.

[Velhart]

I havn't killed an HNM in almost 2 years now.