[Phlow]

Azarall, on 06 November 2009 - 09:50 AM, said:

Um... yeah. SAM/THF. If you've ever even BEEN in an HNMLS, it's a pretty popular combo.

You have shitty tanks if they require a TA from a SAM. Most cap out in the first 5 minutes of a fight. (unless kiting or doing something fuckin weird)

[Banggugyangu]

Just thought I'd comment on the jobs I have that I've seen pop up in this....

THF: Treelo can handle this better than anyone else I believe, I'll stay outta this argument.

PUP: PUPs that nuke in EXP are pretty fail. PUPs that can't outdamage anyone else in a kited HNM fight are uber fail. PUPs that can't parse on par with nearly all DDs in a meripo while using sharpshot are pretty fail. *Combining master and puppet damage*.

SCH: SCH is by far the most versatile job I've seen. SCH has the option to be a strong support job for mages, an incredibly potent healer, or a long-endurance nuker. While it has the ability to switch gears on the fly, proper play should teach one to stick with a single role as much as possible. Switching greatly hinders performance for a minute or two. Switching too often reduces your performance too much.

Played right, SCH can easily be the best mage you had invited for whatever you're doing. Played wrong, SCH is taking up wasted space.

[Yhelothur]

Azarall, on 03 November 2009 - 12:40 PM, said:

but I've been in enough linkshells and 4 servers to know otherwise.

-The End

Four servers? Someone fucked up.

And yeah, SAM/THF only for something you know you can't rely on someone to keep hate on. If you know how to manage your hate, you shouldn't need it, unless your tanks suck. Then there's larger problems now, isn't there?

Of course you can go /THF and make it easy for that PLD, but anyone tanking endgame shouldn't need that assistance.

[Corrderio]

Velhart, on 06 November 2009 - 10:13 AM, said:

As much as NIN tanking still rocks even today, I still wish SE would give a better update to them to allow them to be on par with the other DD's, or give them throwing tools that are worth throwing. But in all fairness, I still see good NIN's deal out some good WS damage.

Oh NINs can do good damage no doubt, however a good NIN is a very rare sight.

As for SAM/THF, I think the only time I've seen that combo outside of sky was on Khim.

[legen-unicorn]

For as poorly as Azarall chose his words in talking about failed jobs, for the most part he was kind of right.

As far as DD go sam is the end all be all, no need to get butthurt if you have a good drk, thf, rng, or mnk for someone saying its better. Look at it this way, you may be a badass drk thf or mnk, but you would basically parse with a shitty bandwagon sam who uses meh gear when you collected shit for years and years. I can say this with confidence cuz im finally almost to 75 with sam since all endgame shells as for "DD" they really mean sam. I have a few DD's which i spent years in sky, dynamis, HNM camps to perfect, yet soon as i hit 75 on sam, they will all sit on the sidelines for a not as impressively built sam. And this does kind of piss me off, but its not the players, its SE and how they have a boner for samurai.

Nin was my first job, and still one of my favorites, but ill be the first to admit, when i go lvling i actually consider dropping pty if i see the tank is a nin (outside of merit) because they have been dialed down with the buffs otehr jobs have gotten. And personally i think the last update was a fucking joke. I would always hold good hate on nin cuz i had an impressive DD build to keep other DD's from ripping hate as easily, but now i have to compromise the ability to hit my target for a small enm boost (and from what iv seen it is small), or hit the target and lose a shit ton of enm. I cant even sneak nin in anymore endgame unless i wanna tank adds from a certain NM, then run back to change to a more noteworthy job.

Sch i think is a badass job even tho i havent unlocked it, just what iv seen iv been impressed. And i have blm and rdm to 75, so thats kind of saying something. Nice to have when you need a bit of both, and from what iv seen doesnt suffer too much.

Dnc is a joke, plain and simple. We all know it so dont defend it. Unless of course this threads name is "best job to lvl til lvl 50" then dnc is badass.

Pet jobs are ok, but seriously the ppl that are good at them need some hella good gear. Saw an awesome PUP the other day and tossed a check his way. Honestly had the best gear of any char iv ever seen in my life. And when i say he was good it was more of a "wow, pup isnt so bad", not "ZOMFG this is a game breaking job". And thats sporting that type of gear, same goes for drg, either you have odin gear or crazy expensive shit to do a noteworthy job outside bird camp. Fun as hell to play, but requires such incredible gear to make up for its shortcomings.

Thf however is where i think he is dead wrong, cuz thf is a beast and doesnt even need that good of gear. IMO thf isnt a full DD, its what it can do in a group, namely hate control and damage spiking. And as far as damage goes, thf's can close some of the most devastating sc's for insane dmg for anyone that still does that.

[Myhnegon]

legen-unicorn, on 06 November 2009 - 09:14 PM, said:

As far as DD go sam is the end all be all, no need to get butthurt if you have a good drk, thf, rng, or mnk for someone saying its better. Look at it this way, you may be a badass drk thf or mnk, but you would basically parse with a shitty bandwagon sam who uses meh gear when you collected shit for years and years. I can say this with confidence cuz im finally almost to 75 with sam since all endgame shells as for "DD" they really mean sam. I have a few DD's which i spent years in sky, dynamis, HNM camps to perfect, yet soon as i hit 75 on sam, they will all sit on the sidelines for a not as impressively built sam. And this does kind of piss me off, but its not the players, its SE and how they have a boner for samurai.

Man SAM isn't the answer to everything lol, it depends on what u fight and ur surroundings, ur supports etc etc. Can u use 2hr or not etc etc. Kirin for example, if the SAM can't use 2hr, he won't be even near the top score, and even with 2hr he might die if it's used too early in the battle. Dead DDs usually never rank top. On Ixion u can melee it, sure, but usually end up dead sooner or later, or need as much healing that the mages get MPK'd sooner or later cuz ur tanks can't hold that much support. So u either end up getting TP on other mobs there and WS on Ixion, or u be lazy and wait for Meditiate recast while RNGs TP and WS on Ixion the whole time. On Fafhogg they are nice cuz they can make SCs with any job while they feed little TP to it, but u don't get them for the dmg they deal. Everything is situational and depends on many factors, there isn't only ONE answer to everything called SAM.

[Azarall]

SAM/THF isnt only for hate mitigation. For low-man fights where you want to do the maximum amount of damage while feeding the bare minimal amount of TP, SAM/THF takes the cake. If Dark Magic Resistance isnt an issue, then by all means, DRK it up, but other melee jobs, even with /sam, do not have the ability to pull TP out of their ass and most DD jobs, aside from MNK, do not have the store tp/subtle blow traits to ensure they're either getting the most tp possible or feeding the least tp possible. For shells who DON'T fight hnm/gods/kings by throwing mass numbers at something, like I said... SAM/THF.

As for Pet Jobs... I dunno. They're too flimsy, too unreliable, too weak. On top of that, the master is weak themselves and have to usually wind up doing some alternate role. -cough- SMN heals between blood pacts.

As for THF... personal experience has shown that I've never needed one with a PLD tank around, or as a PLD tank myself, and any job with THF sub can spike damage and shed hate just as well, with faster tp gain and higher damage in between WS.

"Four servers? Someone fucked up."

When you have close friends that move around, you wind up moving around yourself.

"Seriously, saying all other phsyical DD are gimped compared to /thf of all things, you are pretty damn retarded. Last I checked, hnm aren't the only thing in the game. They aren't even the only endgame. No, not even the only endgame that counts."

I'm using sam/thf as an example to argue against the need for THFs in a group. If not doing HNM by all means sub WAR. Certain things will shine in certain situations, but if you consider all that a SAM has to offer versus other jobs, it's obvious that the bandwagon SAM is most frequently at the top for any drawn-out fights. DRGs have meripos, MNKs have salvage, but I digress.

I love DRG, played it at 2003 release, and leveled it to 75 two years ago. I thought PUP was fun, I took it to 15 and blew 3 mil on it. And if you want to have fun do whatever but this thread is about jobs we believe are fail, not fun.

[fyreus]

Quote

"As for THF... personal experience has shown that I've never needed one with a PLD tank around, or as a PLD tank myself, and any job with THF sub can spike damage and shed hate just as well, with faster tp gain and higher damage in between WS."

This is the EXP mentality, not endgame. Finding a shell or small man group that doesn't want a THF is very RARE.


Myhnegon pretty much summed it up in a way to explain to those who are too busy watching SAM to understand their surroundings. For those who have fought TP sensitive mobs, we all know and understand that anyone can get TP and move in to get their job done so in the end it's all an e-peen thing With this new update it's too easy for RNG to do damage with very little problems so we can expect to see them rise back up in the DPS charts.

Also, I kinda DO see THF as a failed job seeing as people only want you for one thing (lol don't women say this?) so they should work on job purpose instead of buffing whatever 2 jobs they believe should be buffed at a time.

[Azarall]

fyreus, on 10 November 2009 - 01:31 PM, said:

This is the EXP mentality, not endgame. Finding a shell or small man group that doesn't want a THF is very RARE.


Myhnegon pretty much summed it up in a way to explain to those who are too busy watching SAM to understand their surroundings. For those who have fought TP sensitive mobs, we all know and understand that anyone can get TP and move in to get their job done so in the end it's all an e-peen thing With this new update it's too easy for RNG to do damage with very little problems so we can expect to see them rise back up in the DPS charts.

Also, I kinda DO see THF as a failed job seeing as people only want you for one thing (lol don't women say this?) so they should work on job purpose instead of buffing whatever 2 jobs they believe should be buffed at a time.

Not just exp mentallity. A THF deals spike damage and transfers hate. A SAM/THF can do the exact same thing with more damage, and more survivability. Again, the sole advantage is TH4.

OH LOOK AT THAT. AN UPDATE THAT LIMITS SCH'S BEST DoT ABILITY. Again, its a new job. Just a matter of time before SE screws it up. PUP was the shit when it first came out due to inbalances.

These RNG updates do look nice, but I've never denied what a RNG can do.

[.Sotek.]

Quote

OH LOOK AT THAT. AN UPDATE THAT LIMITS SCH'S BEST DoT ABILITY. Again, its a new job. Just a matter of time before SE screws it up. PUP was the shit when it first came out due to inbalances.

I can't help but laugh at anyone who thinks MV was ever worth a shit. Heck, calling it the best DoT ability is a joke in itself. You sir, are a moron.
SE already fixed SCH, that update infact pushed it from being a very gimp RDM to being better than BLM and WHM.

[Thetone]

Well of that list of worthless jobs I'd have to say this guy is a tool because at least 3 of those jobs still fucking rock.

Rng: sure SE gimped the hell out of rng, yes my rng took a beating when they issued the nerf but the job can still unload great dmg and is used in end game.

Nin: A Nin/Drk has no issues holding hate and with the help of yonin, nin can hit crazy levels of enmity and with /drk spells you can quickly cap CE. Any mob that can be stunned easily and does not build resistance can more than likely be tanked with a nin/drk better than a pld.

Sch: I'm no sch but I've seen these guys pull off some pretty amazing stuff, that job is far from being a fail job.

Pup: Well I'd love to say pup fails but as I'm no pup and never really paid attention to one so I cannot comment.

If you want to see a fail job look at sam, how many buffs did it take before it became the bandwagon job?

[Corrderio]

The only real issue with PUP is it's AI, I'm not a PUP but the automaton with the WHM head can do some very stupid shit that can get you killed. And I guess the lack of actual gear until the higher up levels.

[rambus]

.Sotek., on 12 November 2009 - 09:40 AM, said:

I can't help but laugh at anyone who thinks MV was ever worth a shit. Heck, calling it the best DoT ability is a joke in itself. You sir, are a moron.
SE already fixed SCH, that update infact pushed it from being a very gimp RDM to being better than BLM and WHM.

calling people morons when you psit out shit like this is laughable.

SCH was never better then WHM, i feel sorry for people that think that because they must not know shit about whm then.
second are you aware of what happened if you did more then one MV on one helix spell?

[Creelo]

rambus, on 12 November 2009 - 01:48 PM, said:

second are you aware of what happened if you did more then one MV on one helix spell?

This.

[Aeonknight]

rambus, on 12 November 2009 - 01:48 PM, said:

calling people morons when you psit out shit like this is laughable.

SCH was never better then WHM, i feel sorry for people that think that because they must not know shit about whm then.
second are you aware of what happened if you did more then one MV on one helix spell?

*adds "psit" to Rambus Dictionary. definition: piss and shit @ same time?*

I don't see how YOU can call him out on his analogy of SCH vs WHM in terms of healing when WHMs themselves viewed their job as obsolete (except for the most dedicated of the bunch.) The race was pretty damn close until things like Esuna and Afflatus Solace rolled around, and even then SCH still puts up a good effort.

as for your second point, whether he's aware of the MV zerg or not, it doesn't matter. The point he's trying to make is that SCH brings more to the table than just a broken (till recently) DoT ability, which was a counter point to a certain FFXIV tool who started this whole retarded debate.

[rambus]

Aeonknight, on 12 November 2009 - 03:27 PM, said:

*adds "psit" to Rambus Dictionary. definition: piss and shit @ same time?*

I don't see how YOU can call him out on his analogy of SCH vs WHM in terms of healing when WHMs themselves viewed their job as obsolete (except for the most dedicated of the bunch.) The race was pretty damn close until things like Esuna and Afflatus Solace rolled around, and even then SCH still puts up a good effort.

as for your second point, whether he's aware of the MV zerg or not, it doesn't matter. The point he's trying to make is that SCH brings more to the table than just a broken (till recently) DoT ability, which was a counter point to a certain FFXIV tool who started this whole retarded debate.

SCH came close maybe to whm but WHM was still better even before that update.

WHM can sub SCH

WHM has the best MP/ per cure amount spell and low emitiy to top it off

A SCH using JAs to get better cure efficiency looses the ability to AOE erase and w/e else whinny WHM complained about.

WHM has a body to give refresh on it plus the +2 of subbi, SCH could total 4 but no perma refersh in doing so. 3 vs 4 is a minimal difference and is offsetted with other pros that WHM has.

whm has haste

there is/was NO REASON to replace a WHM with a SCH ever, if anything you put both in a tank pt topped with shell V etc.
exp pts, SCH has no haste so that ends that

SCh coming out and even after SCH update whm was better off with SCH aroun then without, subing it allowed them to compete with RDM better. anyone that says otherwise was just wanting to complain like usual when any job gets a buff and someone else did not.

ever since the first SCH update SCH was able to out nuke blm both in power and mp use there is no reason to say that helix was the best thing SCH did as far as nuke damage. ( part of his point but calling MV useless is kind of ignorant. if i knew more SCH to play with it i could give more details but im sure more then 1 MV can still take a good chunk out.)

[Aeonknight]

rambus, on 12 November 2009 - 04:21 PM, said:

SCH came close maybe to whm but WHM was still better even before that update.

WHM can sub SCH

WHM has the best MP/ per cure amount spell and low emitiy to top it off

WHM has a body to give refresh on it plus the +2 of subbi, SCH could total 4 but no perma refersh in doing so. 3 vs 4 is a minimal difference and is offsetted with other pros that WHM has.

whm has haste

there is NO REASON to replace a WHM with a SCH ever, if anything you put both in a tank pt topped with shell V etc.

ever since the first SCH update SCH was able to out nuke blm both in power and mp use there is no reason to say that helix was the best thing SCH did as far as nuke damage. ( part of his point but calling MV useless is kind of ignorant. if i knew more SCH to play with it i could give more details but im sure more then 1 MV can still take a good chunk out.)

You missed the point of the post. I'm not saying SCH was > WHM then or now. I'm saying that before the update it was pretty much a toss up (depended heavily on the person playing the jobs.) between the 2. If Sotek thinks that SCH > WHM, that's his opinion. Either way he was justifying it against a point made earlier saying that SCH was a failed job. It ain't about SCH vs WHM, it's about SCH being recognized for what it can do, and how the idiot OP fails to recognize that.

But then again that much is to be expected from someone toting the oldest bandwagon phrase in the book: "SAM ONRY!"
Seriously, even the SAM forums themselves aren't that stuck up.

[rambus]

Aeonknight, on 12 November 2009 - 04:38 PM, said:

You missed the point of the post. I'm not saying SCH was > WHM then or now. I'm saying that before the update it was pretty much a toss up (depended heavily on the person playing the jobs.) between the 2. If Sotek thinks that SCH > WHM, that's his opinion. Either way he was justifying it against a point made earlier saying that SCH was a failed job. It ain't about SCH vs WHM, it's about SCH being recognized for what it can do, and how the idiot OP fails to recognize that.

But then again that much is to be expected from someone toting the oldest bandwagon phrase in the book: "SAM ONRY!"
Seriously, even the SAM forums themselves aren't that stuck up.

does not matter if it was a toss up or not, that can be said about any job. and what you said does not really go on the same lines as:

Quote

I don't see how YOU can call him out on his analogy of SCH vs WHM in terms of healing when WHMs themselves viewed their job as obsolete

anyone that did that was/ is ( if they still) an idiot and i gave the reasons why already.

[Griss]

Corrderio, on 12 November 2009 - 12:48 PM, said:

The only real issue with PUP is it's AI, I'm not a PUP but the automaton with the WHM head can do some very stupid shit that can get you killed. And I guess the lack of actual gear until the higher up levels.

you are more then correct on both points corrderio.

the global cast time can be fun. though the issue can be some what circumvented with use of an eraser but it is not a perfect world. some thing like blind or other na able debuff gets put on you when your seconds away from taste testing the ground and thanks to the ai's prioritization of removing enfeebles over curing compounded by the 25~ish second recast blindna is cast on you over the cure 5. that will keep you going.

what really grinds my gears about the situations is that some of the peculiarities with that particular heads ai has already been fixed with the ai of the healing type npc. but i am going to stop before i go on a rant fueled by rage, befuddlement, and despair.

[.Sotek.]

Quote

second are you aware of what happened if you did more then one MV on one helix spell?

Yes I'm aware you could stack 8 MVs to do 31k damage.

At best I'd be willing to accept people might get 3 or 4 off in a common situation, which yes, would be something like 2k damage. But divide that by the four SCHs needed (or was it five? I cant recall if the one who casts helix could actually manage to use it in time) and you're looking at 500 damage between them.
You'd need to stack 6 imo for the individual SCHs to do more damage that they otherwise could without the massive headache. Which honestly, I don't think anyone would ever have achieved on anything important. Did they ever even do anything else other than Hydra and a UFO? Maybe I'd be more convinced it would ever have actually worked if they did.

As for WHM, I prefer a job that can do more than cure, since there are alot of times theres no need for curing. 44MP for 429HP isn't miles bad (sure WHM can /SCH but it sure as hell can't keep stratagems up anywhere near as well as SCH), RDM like Fast Cast isn't bad too, and I find Enmity and MP not to be an issue with decent support.