[Corrderio]

Sotose, on 18 November 2009 - 02:39 PM, said:

I think it is just a matter that bad players more frequently gravitate to certain jobs. I mean there are imbalances in the game, and SE should be more proactive in fixing them but still things aren't THAT bad.

This is also a problem. I never invite a Blue Mage because most of the time they'll fulltime AF and be in MP gear with little to no accuracy.

[fyreus]

I noticed this about other BLU as a BLU. Most around my level do 100ish vorpal blades while i do 400average unless i whiff... This is probably why i can't level BLU ; ; Back in the day, people would remember a good player and grab them and party or even static. Nowadays no one remembers anyone and will invite the first bandwagon job with their flag up.

[What?]

While some jobs do attract more idiots than others, there's probably an even spread throughout. The reason horrible players are more noticeable on those jobs is because they're more complicated to play and require a lot more effort to do well on, unlike SAM for instance. Job balance needs to take into account the maximum potential of a job, it's utility AND it's ease of use when talking about if it's good or not. SAMs potential may not be much higher than other jobs but because it's so easy to do good damage on, because they're given buffs with no effort, they're very popular. THF and BLU have good utility and can do good damage but because it's harder to do well on overall compared to other jobs it's got a lame image. Those two jobs have nothing to do with being weak, they do very well in the hands of good players, but the XI playerbase will chose other jobs that can be fucked up less regardless of what an amazing BLU or THF can manage. Great players will tell you those jobs don't need updates, or at least updates as massive as the playerbase thinks they need, but updates to make the jobs easier to use would do well to improve their image without disrupting the balance, at least in terms of max potential ranking. (Just to clarify I'm not targeting these two jobs because there are a ton that are in the exact same boat, I'm just using them because they've been brought up in this thread a few times.)

If THF was given a 100% attack boost while striking with Sneak attack or Trick attack, THF in high buff/amazing gear situations wouldn't see that much or any improvement but THFs that don't have the support or gear would benefit from it a lot. It wouldn't change how it ranks when compared at max potential with other jobs but it would make it easier to do well on and improve it's image. I picked 100% attack because that's what Gekko does, but if that was too much then 50% attack. Or if an attack boost would give too much of a boost to already good THFs then make it something else, the point of something like that is to make it easier for people to do well on in all situations so there's less "A good THF is amazing" and more "THF is amazing" end of story. It's a big part of balance and people need to be aware of it before they start clamouring xyz job is gimp.

Quote

I noticed this about other BLU as a BLU. Most around my level do 100ish vorpal blades while i do 400average unless i whiff... This is probably why i can't level BLU ; ;

SE could make it so Vorpals on BLU did 200-300 instead of 100 for BLUs like that. No gear or playstyle changes just a buff for nothing like what SAM gets every time it weaponskills. It wouldn't change the job for well geared people but it would allow gimps to at least do something. Gimp SAMs can do great and that's why it's easier for people to only want that job. Of course, having all the jobs be easy to use requires balancing accordingly. So it can be fair to say a job failed if only 10% of the playerbase can tap into it's potential, it would just be a lot easier if more people realised this before excluding jobs or calling them gimp.

Think of "ease of use" in terms of other games. I'll pick Tekken 3 but there are many other examples. Think about Eddy (SAM) and how button mashers could do well with him against people using other characters that didn't know the game that well and had no skill (badly geared/skilled player), but people could beat button mashers with skill and knowledge of the game (well geared/skilled player). That doesn't mean a good Eddy wouldn't kick your ass if they were playing the game with skill and not button mashing, but that character being so easy to play gives it a good image especially in the eyes of people who don't know any better (FFXI playerbase). It's easier to go with a noob friendly job like SAM when it's so much harder to fuck up compared to other jobs.

[Aeonknight]

I agree with your post to an extent.

SAM is definately playing the role of DD on easy mode. But there will always be people who fuck it up. Hell they even have a thread or 2 dedicated to SAMs who will likely be outdmged by a DNC. here's a hint: DOMARUUUUUUU!!!

It's easy to want to gravitate to jobs that recieve multiple buffs by SE, but it doesn't belittle other jobs in any way. As far as job usability goes... the job is only as hard to play as you make it.

[What?]

Honestly the fact that player skill makes such a difference in this game despite obvious class imbalances is the only reason I played for as long as I did. Pretty much any job played well can and will beat the average SAM. Even SAM that are geared as well or better than you can be beaten if you play better/more aggressive than they do. The fact that they do well in the hands of gimps and in the hands of top players is why it's known to be overpowered. If SAM only had one or the other, things might be different I think.

When I say ease of use it's more to do with the buffs that job gets not that it's difficult or easy to play as. No job is really "hard" but some do require more interactivity and sadly it's not rewarded as much as it should be. Gekko with it's attack boost and capping acc on every weaponskill makes it far easier to do damage with garbage gear. WAR kind of falls into that too with Berserk and Aggressor, buffs for nothing make the gimps more bearable. There's no such benefit for other jobs so they require more work to pull off well. Ease of use means gear too, if a PUP needs full usukane to match a hagun SAM in damage then PUP is at a disadvantage when it comes to ease of use. Being able to slap on cheap AH gear and do amazing is unbalanced if another job needs a full salvage set and more to keep up.

[Velhart]

Aeonknight, on 19 November 2009 - 05:47 AM, said:

Hell they even have a thread or 2 dedicated to SAMs who will likely be outdmged by a DNC. here's a hint: DOMARUUUUUUU!!!

I laughed to this, because unfortunately, this isn't far from the truth.

I am almost like perma DRG now just because I don't have a Hagun on my SAM anymore, call me overdramatic if you like, haha.

SAM is the "Easy Button" of the community. But they make it look fancy. Just say this because there are other DD's that have to do a lot to make their job worthwhile, like BLU going out and gaining all their spells and setting them up correctly. Or THF always having to be ontop of gear to deal damage.

[fyreus]

i really don't want to see any more Easy Mode buffs for alot of these jobs imho. If anything, we should learn how to work with what we have. Being able to equip attack bonus, accuracy bonus, refresh, and slipin something here and there is fun for me and makes me think about what i do when i jump into a fight. I could roll with +42str/+330att on my 68 blu/nin or lower damage and get refresh or change over to +25mnd and drop 380+ heals on someone and be able to get mp back pretty reliably without changing my sub. Making it any easier for me would pretty much ruin things. Those MP blus out there just need to take a look a job that adapts to different situations and take that as a hint.

[Pobyedobyedo]

A failed job imo is a job that can't overcome its shortcomings with good gear and skill. That taken into consideration, the only failed jobs would be dancer/beastmaster. For endgame there are tanks/support/healers/damage dealers.

Tanks: PLD, NIN. PLD with its recent updates is without a doubt superior to nin, but a good NIN/DRK can get the job done.

support: BRD RDM and COR all have their own niche.

healers: SCH RDM WHM. Although one maybe superior to the others they can all get the job done.

DDs/Nuker: BLM SCH. Again although one maybe superior to the other they can both get the job done.

DDs/melee: RNG WAR DRK SAM DRG BLU THF. They are not all even but given the proper gear they get the job done. A RNG is the best DD when your fighting dark ixion. A DRK is top for zerging. The best einherjar LSs will try to have an angon rotation through DRG. Meripo wise who can say they have never seen an exceptional THF or BLU who had broken the stereotype? A good bst/nin can wreck your average DD.

I think it all comes down to the individual and his ability to make it happen. If the job is too flawed to make it work only then would I consider it a failed job. THF loses alot vs HNM, most of the time more than gear can make up for.

Me(DRK) and my DRG friend parse almost every ls event we do. Since we started einherjar a sam has never been top DD and at the most 3rd. I have also parsed one seiryu in which a sam did 36% dmg to seiryu and I was second with 24% then my drg friend 18% and the typical sam less than 15%. SAM imo is just as strong as any other DD until an individual makes it something more.

If a sam/thf only weaponskills everytime SA is up he is going to break even with other dd/thf at best. The above sam used his overwhelm and additional tp to have an advantage in a way most sam don't. In those cases sam is gonna be the best DD.

[Jinzao]

Boldfinger, on 16 June 2009 - 05:26 PM, said:

[GM]

Anything that needs a support job to sell itself to an EXP group.

[Tikki]

You really don't know much about blm if you're calling them a failed job.The age of tp burn and colibri have rubbed them out of the vast majority of exp parties, but they can still burn. They still DD at the endgame. They're still required at events like dynamis. And once, before ToAU came out, you didn't go ANYWHERE without a BLM in party to magic burst on your skillchains.

[Corrderio]

They're not, they're a pathetic attempt at RMT

[Tikki]

Oh for fuck sake, I'm usually better about spotting haxxor posts like that. Good thing I didn't click anything. ;3

[Corrderio]

If anyone posts a URL I'm already suspicious. Already requesting for Dyrie/Wiggs to disable new members from being able to post URLs unless they exceed a certain amount of posts.