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To SE: Take nothing from WOW. Continue to ignore the SE QQ posts. Rate Topic: -----

#1
User is offline   cowboy 

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I have read through the majority of the threads here and I haven't seen any blatant WOW fanboyism, but I just facepalm seeing how many of the worst aspects of WOW people want to see incorporated into FFXIV.

If we're able to solo from beginning to endgame without interacting with other classes and characters, I get the feeling the game won't last long in a Western market. I for one wouldn't stick around for it anyway, there's a reason I only played WOW for a short time after WOTLK came out and there's a reason Blizzard is losing subscribers at an alarming rate. When the challenge is gone, and you encourage the Counter-Strike and Halo communities to take part in the game and reward everyone for very little effort, it's not fun anymore. I hope they take very, very few aspects from major MMO's like WOW. I hope that group play is still required to progress and that the game doesn't become a retardedly inflated statfest like WoW is currently.

A lot of posts in here are depressing when talking about PVP.
Seriously, this isn't Counter-Strike. This isn't Diablo. This isn't WOW. This is Final Fantasy. There are plenty of alternatives for people that want to play games where they can lolololol roflstomp other people. FFXI had a redeeming quality in that it didn't encourage that style of gameplay but instead encouraged group play. Having been a part of both communities, I can sincerely say I don't want the WOW community migrating to FFXIV. You will find elitism in every MMO and every internet group, but I guarantee you will find the highest concentration of trolls and ROFLSTOMPers that have a /spit emote macro'd in WOW. The kind of people that make fun of players that play on roleplaying servers for being carebears and nerds, as if exploring Azeroth was somehow cool in the first place. They are the same people that couldn't beat Oblivion without cheat codes because they were in too much of a hurry to blow stuff up.

Speaking of statfests, do you really think that improves a game? "I need X of this stat in order to be optimal. I need Y amount of this stat for this particular encounter". If you think gearswapping is restricted to FFXI, you're wrong. The numbercrunching, theorycrafting statfest doesn't at all add to a games challenge and charm, it just further encourages stat-bloating and elitism. Don't forget the 3 letters after MMO when it comes to Final Fantasy, it's RPG. Of any RPG I've ever played, I've never "needed" any particular stat or piece of gear in order to be competitive and do well. Instead we're normally able to equip what we want and what makes logical sense and still excel. If you go check out the ElitistJerks forums and actually think that the endless number-mashing and theorycrafting seems intriguing, you are beyond help. The TP system is far from perfect, but I guarantee you there is nothing fun about making sure you have exactly X and Y amount of stats, and then making sure you use the same mind numbing rotation over and over and over again... The WOW system is no more complicated or strategical than the FFXI system and in fact, encourages people to mindlessly gear, spec and play exactly like everybody else in order to stay even in DPS and inflate their own egos as if it's a difficult task. SE not giving people the specifics of the games mathematical equations down to .01% is one of its saving graces. Could they give a little more? Perhaps. Do I want them to? No.

Class balance? Blizzard has hit every class with the nerf-bat repeatedly in order to 'balance' classes around the PVP bitching that goes on in their forums when people get their faces smashed in WSG. As an unintended consequence, PVE play suffers quite often. I actually admire SE for not repeatedly gutting and rebuilding their classes for no reason other than bitching and moaning from people that want to mindlessly 1-shot other players all day long. Blizzard has "tweaked" (lol, your wording isn't strong enough) their classes so many times that they wouldn't even be recognizable for somebody that was away from the game for a couple of months. Not to mention that everyone is speaking as if Blizzard has ALWAYS kept every class/spec balanced. It wasn't even until last year that Retribution Paladins became viable, but everyone forgets that because it's currently trendy to hate Paladins because they 1 shot people in inferior gear in WSG. Get this, the reason Retribution Paladin is being nerfed next patch is (directly from the mouth of a Blizzard employee) "It increasingly feels like players only have 60% of their health when going against a Paladin due to vindication and hammer of wrath". There were no numbers behind it, and in fact the numbers you so encourage were contrary to what the devs FELT, but they're going to go ahead and change it anyway to see if their mouth-breathing subscriber base will stop bitching so much on the forums. And that is just 1 example of Blizzard ignoring 1 spec for close to 4 years, buffing it to make it viable and then gutting it again because people are needlessly bitching and moaning about it. Anyway, I don't want to delve too far into WOW specifics, but SE should learn absolutely nothing from Blizzard's class nerf buff nerf buff nerf buff rollercoaster. FFXI's system is not perfect, but I admire SE for not changing it every other day on a whim simply because they feel like it.

SE is like a rock and it adds to the mystique and immersion that IMO, is supposed to be a staple of RPG's. Number crunchers can go play number munchers. That type of system doesn't make the game anymore complicated or fun, it just makes it easier for people that don't truly understand what they're doing to go into zombiemode and do exactly what their wowwiki told them to so they can be fully purple. It feels less like you're playing a character and more like you're a robot surrounded by robots. That is not an RPG, that is an MMOe-peen stroker at its worst.

Blizzard's crafting system is a joke. You can max out 2 professions in half a day of work at level 80, but don't expect to make any money out of it because there are thousands of other people that have it maxed as well. Blizzard pumps so much new gold into the economy without taking enough out that inflation in WOW is at ridiculous levels. The good news? Gold is super cheap to buy and Blizzard completely turns their heads the other way when it comes to RMT farmers, botters and traders.

Blizzard customer service is almost exactly the same if not worse. In fact, there was a time I was leveling my alt and they got stuck in nowhereland. I opened a ticket and a GM was not able to assist me for 3+ hours. At that time, I had to log out to take care of something. I came back, my ticket was gone and my character was still stuck. I opened another ticket. Another 3 hours. A GM finally messaged me, but oh, what's this? They couldn't assist me because it wasn't a problem they'd seen before and were unable to send me to my homepoint. They had to send it up to their superior. No big deal, log out for the night. Get on the next afternoon, still stuck in nowhereland. Opened another ticket and magically this GM was able to assist me., again after a monumental wait.

Unjustified bans? Got one of those from Blizzard too. Tried logging in and got the message "This account has been suspended, please go to http://blahblahblah.blah. Website I went to said the account was permanently banned and that a reason would be sent to my registered email address. Waited a few hours, no email. I called Blizzard and they then sent me the email with the reason for the ban. The email said nothing about a permanent ban, and in fact said the accounts security was in question so it's been closed for my protection. Anyway, this was a Friday. I had to send them proof that I was really the original owner of the account with ID, a PDF (luckily I have full Adobe for work). I sent that Friday around 5PM PST, you know when I finally got the account back? Monday night. SE is far from the worst offender when it comes to poor customer service, this is more a problem with customer service and call centers in general no matter the business. SE should give their GM's a little more power though, I will say that much.

The bottom line is that no company is perfect. Especially as it pertains to technology. Expecting nothing less than perfection and desiring the dev team to cater to every whim of the gaming community at the drop of the hat for your measly $15 a month is just unrealistic. You can pay $120 for your internet, digital cable and phone package and still have the service fail for an entire day. Welcome to the real world.

The list goes on and on, but here's to hoping FFXIV is new, original and fresh without feeling like a reskin of WOW simply because that's what the casual gaming community wants. Here's to hoping FFXIV is actually an RPG and not just another solo MMO. Here's to hoping SE learned from their own mistakes and takes ZERO pages out of Blizzards playbook. If you want to level all the way to end game solo, go play FF13. Or better yet, go play WOW and leave fans of the Final Fantasy franchise alone.

TL;DR me and flame on.
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#2
User is offline   Corrderio 

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My god lock this thread before Rambus see's the part about service.

Solo content is one thing I'm all for. I understand where SE was going with the whole encouraging parties thing however I think they kept pushing it. Personally I can understand endgame and certain quests needing a group in order to win. But EXPing? Come on that's just BS considering how some jobs get the shaft and are hardly invited. After taking NIN/BRD/SMN/MNK up for a Maat's cap I say that those jobs aren't going to get an invite that often unless people are desperate or you're a level sync whore (AKA You're level 37, 55, 62ish, whenever you go and fight colibri). ANd I know there's plenty of more jobs like that which I haven't touched yet (I had 2 ppl who recently leveled DRK say the invite crap on that is to.) So yeah, it'd be nice for those jobs to at least have a way to solo decently while seeking (FoV doesn't count since after awhile it becomes crap).

PVP for the most part I hate and agree it shouldn't be forced upon the players.

Crafting is a joke in both games, since like you said fully leveling a craft doesn't seem to be that bad which I'll take your word on since I never have nor will touch World of Borecraft, however most recipies in XI are worthless and some crafts are hardly even worth touching. Yeah I know all jobs have a way to make gil but in some crafts there's not a whole lot unless you wanna run a huge assed gamble.

Not touching the service since I know someone will be doing that for me.

Anyway that's my two cents.
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#3
User is offline   cowboy 

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QUOTE (Corrderio @ Jul 18 2009, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My god lock this thread before Rambus see's the part about service.

Solo content is one thing I'm all for. I understand where SE was going with the whole encouraging parties thing however I think they kept pushing it. Personally I can understand endgame and certain quests needing a group in order to win. But EXPing? Come on that's just BS considering how some jobs get the shaft and are hardly invited. After taking NIN/BRD/SMN/MNK up for a Maat's cap I say that those jobs aren't going to get an invite that often unless people are desperate or you're a level sync whore (AKA You're level 37, 55, 62ish, whenever you go and fight colibri). ANd I know there's plenty of more jobs like that which I haven't touched yet (I had 2 ppl who recently leveled DRK say the invite crap on that is to.) So yeah, it'd be nice for those jobs to at least have a way to solo decently while seeking (FoV doesn't count since after awhile it becomes crap).

PVP for the most part I hate and agree it shouldn't be forced upon the players.

Crafting is a joke in both games, since like you said fully leveling a craft doesn't seem to be that bad which I'll take your word on since I never have nor will touch World of Borecraft, however most recipies in XI are worthless and some crafts are hardly even worth touching. Yeah I know all jobs have a way to make gil but in some crafts there's not a whole lot unless you wanna run a huge assed gamble.

Not touching the service since I know someone will be doing that for me.

Anyway that's my two cents.


Can't find a group? Make some friends.
Can't make friends? Go back to single player or go play a single player friendly game.
Or hey, take some initiative and start the groups yourself.
The fact that you can't find a group has less to do with the job you're playing and more to do with not knowing people/not having initiative and with FFXI having a dwindling community to begin with where less people are leveling up in general.

With that, I fail to understand how not being able to solo to max level is BS. Is it just because practically ever other MMO lets you do it? That is hardly a valid reason.
Although they are technically single player games, I don't recall any Final Fantasy game where you don't primarily level up in groups of 3 or more. On top of that, MMO's are multiplayer games.
What's the point in a multiplayer game where you can solo the majority of the content? There isn't one. Do you think Counter-Strike would have been nearly as popular in its hayday if it were all about 1v1 battles?
It doesn't make any sense. Play a 1player console game if you want solo content.
And if FFXIV does allow you to fully level solo.. then I will give in to the rampant SE hate on these boards for keeping the FF franchise tag on a game that is anything but Final Fantasy.

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#4
User is offline   Corrderio 

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Because it's not that simple, you can't just ask someone to throw together a party, since even with Sync tanks are still rare as hell to find. And from a business view it's a good idea, the main goal you want for an MMO is to have as many subscribers as possible, and solo/no solo content can play quite a large factor in that.
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#5
User is offline   cowboy 

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QUOTE (Corrderio @ Jul 18 2009, 06:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because it's not that simple, you can't just ask someone to throw together a party, since even with Sync tanks are still rare as hell to find. And from a business view it's a good idea, the main goal you want for an MMO is to have as many subscribers as possible, and solo/no solo content can play quite a large factor in that.


Right, but that's not my point.

Is that what you want? An insanely popular game that will give WOW a run for its money and bring even more mouth-breathers to the FF community?
The game can be popular and make SE some good money without completely catering to the increasingly ADD internet population.
I am by no means saying FFXIV should be the same grindfest that is FFXI, but there are far too many hoping for what is basically a WOW system and interface, while still maintaining they want anything but a WOW clone. You can't have it both ways.
We all have to face the fact that the megalith that is Blizzard is not going anywhere. WOW is still #1 and I'm sure their next MMO will help them maintain their stranglehold on the market. The rest of the MMO's are going to have to find their niche and make the best of it. Case in point: Every so called WOW killer that tried to do what WOW does has fallen flat on its face including Warhammer and Age of Conan.

If SE is willing to sacrifice their titles integrity and make the game practically 90% solo-able, I have a feeling it will only backfire on them in the Western market as those that were interested will end up flocking to a game that already does solo play better. IE: Wow, Wow2. And who benefits from that? Not SE. And not loyal SE customers.

Of course it's all speculation at this point as to what kind of solo-play they're going to bring in the picture, but far too many of the hopes and want-to-see's on the boards would end up just making this another soulless and stale MMO.
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#6
User is offline   Corrderio 

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I really don't think soloing will be as huge of an issue, the way I see solo will be for more casual people and those who don't have a lot of time to play, that's one of the huge problems people kept talking about in the past with XI. The way I see it you'll progress as a fairly slow, but good rate, where as in parties it'll be alot fast.
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#7
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now let me preface this by saying, i found wow to be boring after a while, and just as grindtastic as xi. how ever there are some things blizzard has done with wow that se Could learn from.

The raid management system. having a handy dandy way for swapping people around in the parties of an alliance or multiple alliances in the case of dyna or what have you with out having to play musical chairs would be really nice.

Game time cards/the ability to prepay for multiple months. mind you blizzard is not the first company in the history of ever to do this, but they did do it. this point is more of a meta one rather then any particular mmo

i really prefer the auction house system in wow to the silent bid guessing game that is the xi auction house.

i also like the mechanization of crafting in wow, not the total craft system but if i have enough material to make 12 rubber duckys then damn it let me hit a button and have the ducks that make it through the process pop out the other side.

with that said i do not think we will be seeing a wow onry clone with XIV, but an amalgam of what does function well from multiple sources along with some original stuff all blended together to make a hopefully fun and exciting game that were willing to piss away money and time on.

though something in your post did confuse me a bit, you seem to be under the misconception that either a) elitism is only based off of numbers or 2) that wow is the only game with a dedicated core of math geeks. even with xi's "Mystery" every single thing you can think of has been calculated down to a base equation. frankly you show me a activity with more then one person participating in it and i will show you a group that has a sub section of elitist pricks.



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#8
User is offline   Kagemitsu 

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The part about elitism and theorycrafting is what reminds me why I want more solo content: I don't want to have to party with people like you who'd probably show up in a PT in full beak set using a staff on DRG because "it's fun and if you don't like it you're an elitist".
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#9
User is offline   cowboy 

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QUOTE (Griss @ Jul 18 2009, 07:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
now let me preface this by saying, i found wow to be boring after a while, and just as grindtastic as xi. how ever there are some things blizzard has done with wow that se Could learn from.

The raid management system. having a handy dandy way for swapping people around in the parties of an alliance or multiple alliances in the case of dyna or what have you with out having to play musical chairs would be really nice.

Game time cards/the ability to prepay for multiple months. mind you blizzard is not the first company in the history of ever to do this, but they did do it. this point is more of a meta one rather then any particular mmo

i really prefer the auction house system in wow to the silent bid guessing game that is the xi auction house.

i also like the mechanization of crafting in wow, not the total craft system but if i have enough material to make 12 rubber duckys then damn it let me hit a button and have the ducks that make it through the process pop out the other side.

with that said i do not think we will be seeing a wow onry clone with XIV, but an amalgam of what does function well from multiple sources along with some original stuff all blended together to make a hopefully fun and exciting game that were willing to piss away money and time on.

though something in your post did confuse me a bit, you seem to be under the misconception that either a) elitism is only based off of numbers or 2) that wow is the only game with a dedicated core of math geeks. even with xi's "Mystery" every single thing you can think of has been calculated down to a base equation. frankly you show me a activity with more then one person participating in it and i will show you a group that has a sub section of elitist pricks.

I understand where you're coming from and I actually agree. I don't hate EVERYTHING Blizzard, but saying Blizzard's Customer Service, Class "Balancing" and ability to solo 1-80 without ever having to interact with another human being systems are better just doesn't sit right with me. As somebody that's played both games for significant amounts of time as well, even with all of FFXI's problems, it comes out on top for me. I'm just hoping for something that is undoubtedly 100% a Final Fantasy title and not solely a ploy for our money.

As for your specific points -

Raid Management System - yes. Though you'll have to remember (or I will inform you) that wasn't actually implemented until long after the game was released. Initially people had to use addons in order to manage and view an entire raid. I don't particularly want to see user generated content (mods/addons) in FFXIV but once again, I think this would come back to SE learning from their own mistakes and hopefully not really pawning anything off of Blizzard's user developed system.

Auction House - you're right. Linked AH's along with no silent bidding system is superior.

Crafting - Point taken, I know there's nothing more frustrating than gathering up millions of gil worth of mats only to have a synth completely fail on you. I'll be the first to admit FFXI's craft system needs some work, but what I don't want to see with all this "casual" talk is a craft that takes half a day to level. Set limits, yes. Make everything trivial, no.

In regards to elitism - I specifically meant to say that it seems there's a common misconception that elitism is restricted to the longtime and hardcore FFXI players - but it's actually an internet wide-problem and plagues just about every game. I meant it as separate from the number crunching. I realize there is some theorycraft involved in FFXI, but in my personal opinion, it doesn't even approach the level of theorycrafting and number crunching not only every WOW class and spec, but also on the plethora of stats Blizzard has thrown out there (think Hit Rating, Expertise and Armor Penetration all being separate stats) and what is optimal down to .01% or better. It turns into "Oh, somebody did the math. Let's model our specs, sort and enchant our gear AND use exactly this ability at exactly this time because the math says so". I see less of this in FFXI and that's why I commend SE for not turning it into a bloated statfest and number game.
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#10
User is offline   Xani 

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QUOTE (cowboy @ Jul 18 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The fact that you can't find a group has less to do with the job you're playing and more to do with not knowing people/not having initiative and with FFXI having a dwindling community to begin with where less people are leveling up in general.

In the name of all that is good and pure... Shut up. I know hundreds of people and I do take the initiative but that doesn't mean that I didn't struggle with levelling BST solo. Some jobs have a lot of stigma and no amount of friends or initiative will be able to change that.
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#11
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QUOTE (Kagemitsu @ Jul 18 2009, 07:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The part about elitism and theorycrafting is what reminds me why I want more solo content: I don't want to have to party with people like you who'd probably show up in a PT in full beak set using a staff on DRG because "it's fun and if you don't like it you're an elitist".


Point taken. But what you're referring to is a lack of common sense or RPG understanding.
Not about somebody that doesn't enjoy theorycrafting and elitism when it gets to the point it's at in WOW where people are turned away from easy content because the group wants them to outgear the content 3 times over for a stroke of the e-peen.
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#12
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I have read through the majority of the threads here and I haven't seen any blatant WOW fanboyism, but I just facepalm seeing how many of the worst aspects of WOW people want to see incorporated into FFXIV.

If we're able to solo from beginning to endgame without interacting with other classes and characters, I get the feeling the game won't last long in a Western market


I pretty much stopped reading after that.
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#13
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QUOTE (Xani @ Jul 18 2009, 07:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In the name of all that is good and pure... Shut up. I know hundreds of people and I do take the initiative but that doesn't mean that I didn't struggle with levelling BST solo. Some jobs have a lot of stigma and no amount of friends or initiative will be able to change that.


You conveniently didn't mention the second part that you quoted about it being a dwindling community where less people are leveling up in the first place.
Also, make better friends if they don't like you well enough to take you EXPing on any job. When the community was bustling and I was part of a linkshell of good friends, we had no problem leveling any class, all the way up through ToAU where we had a static with both a PUP and a BLM ::gasp:: It gets better. With a PLD tank. A BST with Rampage would have been no problem.
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#14
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QUOTE (Vigilous @ Jul 18 2009, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I pretty much stopped reading after that.


I realize reading is hard. Great input.
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#15
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Reread what you wrote in those two sentences and then dwell on what I put into bold.

You just argued that the conventions of the most popular MMO in the world - especially in the US and Europe - wouldn't work in FFXIV and that the game would not succeed in the western market.

By your logic, WoW shouldn't even exist in the first place.


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#16
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QUOTE (Vigilous @ Jul 18 2009, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Reread what you wrote in those two sentences and then dwell on what I put into bold.

You just argued that the conventions of the most popular MMO in the world - especially in the US and Europe - wouldn't work in FFXIV and that the game would not succeed in the western market.

By your logic, WoW shouldn't even exist in the first place.


Learn to curb your ADD for a second and read more than 2 sentences. Why would a Western market stick around for a game that is conventionally like WOW when WOW is always going to do WOW better? It wouldn't be successful because there IS a WOW.
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#17
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You truly have no idea how the western market works. Trends drive the western market. Not altruistic creativity. If one company sees another getting rich by doing something, then Company A will try it, too. And the consumers will still lap it up and spend money on it.

Let's take movies as an example. Spider-Man and X-Men 1 pulled in a lot of cash. So, naturally every other production house wants to eat up every comic book IP they can get their hands on. Does that mean we've suffered some duds? Yes. But those two movies came out around 2000, and we're still being inundated with comic adaptions.

The reason I stopped reading after sentence two was simple - you destroyed your own argument right out of the gate.
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#18
User is offline   Corrderio 

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Because it's not going to be WoW? Seriously you act like WoW is the only MMO in the world that allows players to solo.
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#19
User is offline   cowboy 

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QUOTE (Vigilous @ Jul 18 2009, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You truly have no idea how the western market works. Trends drive the western market. Not altruistic creativity. If one company sees another getting rich by doing something, then Company A will try it, too. And the consumers will still lap it up and spend money on it.

Let's take movies as an example. Spider-Man and X-Men 1 pulled in a lot of cash. So, naturally every other production house wants to eat up every comic book IP they can get their hands on. Does that mean we've suffered some duds? Yes. But those two movies came out around 2000, and we're still being inundated with comic adaptions.

The reason I stopped reading after sentence two was simple - you destroyed your own argument right out of the gate.


Right - which is why LOTRO, AoC, Warhammer and soon to be Aion are absolutely flourishing in this western market. /sarcasm off
WoW has a stranglehold on the MMO market and cloning it is not the way to dig into that, as has been proven time and time again.

Apples and oranges.
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#20
User is offline   cowboy 

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QUOTE (Corrderio @ Jul 18 2009, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because it's not going to be WoW? Seriously you act like WoW is the only MMO in the world that allows players to solo.


Have you actually tried its more recent clones? AoC and Warhammer? I bought the games and didn't even end up using the full free month because they felt so blatantly similar to WoW. That's all I'm getting at. They get a ton of people that are looking for something new to simply buy the game - yes, but to maintain success and longevity is something neither were able to do because they failed to carve out a niche of their own.
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