[Kay]

Because people who are "Experts" in race relations are largely racial advocates who have no interest in open, frank, and honest discussion.

Correct.

[monstrouswombat]

We've all seen the answer.

Send in some white chick like hillary swank.
She befriends them. They pass a big test.
They put a dew rag on her head and teach the bitch how to dance.
Problem solved.
Roll credits.

[Villainous]

I grew up mainly around whites, and seemed to always be the "oreo" of the group. My fiance' (who is white) has been around black people all her life.. mostly all her friends are black or mexican girls/boys. I will admit she talks the ebonics of the language that black people have horrendously created out of conformity to be different from other people, but she still talks normally (and sometimes mumbles..) when she talks.

IIRC, ebonics was a scheme by cash-strapped Oakland school administrators to get access to funds normally reserved for bilingual students. It is no more a separate language than the Irish dude with a heavy brouge, Mark Wahlberg with his Southie "say hello to ya mutha for me", those Jersey Shore bitches with their nasal whines, or Christ, anyone from the south, once you cross say Virginia, the slang amongst black folks isn't even the same. When I go to Orlando, the black folks there refer to me as "uppity" and keep telling me to slow down in how I talk/walk/almost everything. The United States has hundreds of regional dialects that arose from any number of cultural reasons, immigration, popular use, etc.. to say that black folks developed theirs "out of conformity to be different from other people" wow.. check yourself dude. I'm an oreo too but you're making me look like Kunta Kinte about now.

My music and her's are much different.. I listen to a lot of Metal, rock, Thrash music and she listens to R&B/hip-hop.. I tolerate it but I still don't think it's music.

Same. I grew up in the 80's, so.. Metallica, Iron Maiden, Megadeth, Poison, GNR, Phil Collins, all that shit was on my menu. I listen to some weird shit too, because I have alot of white friends. I too, will tolerate listening to stuff like Carcass' Necroticism: Descanting the Insalubrious. It sounds like a whole bunch of muddled, raging crap mixed with screams to me, but I won't sit there and be like "that's not music" because if you listen there's some really intricate guitar work there. If you don't like hip-hop just say so, but it IS music. If you knew anything about writing rhymes or doing production, its no different than regular song writing. There is math involved, and classic poetic devices are used, alliteration, assonance, etc.. Audio engineering- making your voice NOT sound like crap with compression, filters, whatever- is a highly technical exercise in and of itself. Its fine to not be a fan, but I really question the motivation of those that feel the need to take it one step further and subjectively question its validity as an art form. I remember growing up, we had this thing called "Piss Christ" (google it) which was a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine. This project actually received government funding from the National Endowment of the Arts, to the tune of like $3,000. So who is to say what art really is?

My point is that blacks act the way they do I think because they don't get much attention or help from people because people see some blacks as unwilling to learn and plain lazy, so why help a race who can't help themselves?

Speechless. I can't even begin to respond to this. I need to go smoke some weed and lie down, have a nap.

edit: also,

We've all seen the answer.

Send in some white chick like hillary swank.
She befriends them. They pass a big test.
They put a dew rag on her head and teach the bitch how to dance.
Problem solved.
Roll credits.

I love that movie!!

[Seigrith]

Is it strange that I find the term "ebonics" to be just as racist if not more so than the n-word?

[pathwriter]

I prefer the linguistic term, personally, but if you start talking to someone about Black English Vernacular (which, of itself, is still not descriptive enough but captures a lot of the common grammar rules across its variants), you have to spend a while explaining what it is.

[Villainous]

Is it strange that I find the term "ebonics" to be just as racist if not more so than the n-word?

Not at all, I find it offensive myself, that's why I commented.
I know the original intent of the term was to hustle up some extra school dollars, but some use it to imply that the dialect black folks are speaking is so far removed from English as to be considered a different language. I couldn't really put a finger on WHY that offends me, other than it seems.. dehumanizing somehow. As if we're naught more than jabbering monkeys communicating through a complex interplay of subvocal clicks and tossing feces.

[pathwriter]

It's not so much dehumanizing as it is de-Americanizing. Most people of African descent have been on this side of the planet several centuries more than anyone in my family has (at least my direct line, I've probably got a fifth cousin somewhere that arrived earlier). Except those few weird folks who actually went back to make Liberia and Monrovia, black people in America are Americans. Since our predominant language is English, we tend to demonize anyone who doesn't speak it. There's a reason why my Irish grandmother and Scottish grandmother learned the native accent and dropped their brogues upon immigrating here. The origin of BEV certain does lie in the various creoles and pidgins of English, Spanish, and French combined with the native languages of west Africa and the Caribbean islands, but it has developed into a legitimate and entirely comprehensible dialect. Suggesting that it is so far from standard American English that classes would need to be taught in it just sets the whole process back several centuries.

Of course, it's also pretty insulting to people who speak English in general. I have no difficulty understanding someone who does not conjugate the verb "to be" (e.g., "He be goin' to da sto'.") BEV's grammar isn't even that unique. For the most part, it sounds like half a dozen rural dialects ranging from the Appalachians to the Great Plains. The interesting question would be whether it is a case of them evolving alongside one another or if they simply happened to follow a similar evolutionary route. A few years ago, I noticed that the dialect used among young people in Sydney, Australia, was remarkably similar to one of the dialect patterns in London, England. As near as anyone can tell, it's pure coincidence.

[Vigilous]

Not at all, I find it offensive myself, that's why I commented.
I know the original intent of the term was to hustle up some extra school dollars, but some use it to imply that the dialect black folks are speaking is so far removed from English as to be considered a different language. I couldn't really put a finger on WHY that offends me, other than it seems.. dehumanizing somehow. As if we're naught more than jabbering monkeys communicating through a complex interplay of subvocal clicks and tossing feces.

Wasn't there a black female college professor who wanted ebonics taught in public schools a few years ago?

[Kay]

Wasn't there some representative that wanted Hurricanes to have African-American names? I think I remember reading about that and I laughed for about 15 minutes.

Was Hurricane Andrew too 'lily white'?
Do devastating hurricanes need help from affirmative action?

A member of Congress apparently thinks so, and is demanding the storms be given names that sound "black."

The congressional newspaper the Hill reported this week that Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas, feels that the current names are too "lily white," and is seeking to have better representation for names reflecting African-Americans and other ethnic groups.


Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas
"All racial groups should be represented," Lee said, according to the Hill. She hoped federal weather officials "would try to be inclusive of African-American names."

A sampling of popular names that could be used include Keisha, Jamal and Deshawn, according to the paper.

Jackson Lee's call is brewing its own storm of response across America.

A WorldNetDaily reader wrote:

"You can be sure if there were too many 'black' names assigned to hurricanes, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee would instead be complaining that this practice unfairly stereotypes blacks as violent. Let's hope this silly storm blows over!"

Another, Greg Cook, says, "This is ridiculous. How about naming the storms after gang members, or infamous criminals? How about not having any name at all associated with hurricanes?"

Regina Roberston writes: "We should only name hurricanes for foreign officials who are in hiding or considered to be terrorists, or assisting terrorists. We could name the hurricanes after known illegal immigrants, since they are both unwanted and unwelcome anyway. Or how about we only choose French names, so the fear of hurricanes will be put to rest?"

Radio talk-show giant Rush Limbaugh says he was having dinner with his wife when he first learned of the proposal.

"I just threw up my hands. I said, 'Has it come to this now?'" Limbaugh recounted on his show.

"There's discrimination and actually elected officials wandering around worried about the discrimination in the name of hurricanes. And hurricanes are destructive. You know nobody's very excited when a hurricane's heading their way, and yet here she is demanding that hurricanes be named after black people.

"You know it used to be that hurricanes were named only after women because they were destructive and unpredictable. And that's the reason. The feminists grew upset about that, demanded that hurricanes be named after men, and so now, the civil rights leaders are demanding black names for hurricanes.

Limbaugh continued his analysis, saying it was not the mainstream populace responsible for what he called the "Balkanization" of race relations in America.

"It is these elected black leaders, the civil-rights coalitions – they're the ones that keep causing all this racial divide, they're the ones that keep calling attention to all this," said Limbaugh. "They're the ones that keep stirring this pot. They're the ones who don't want there to be any colorblind society. They're the ones who keep being agitated and trying to agitate others over all this, and now it's descended into the meaningless element of the names of hurricanes."

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, hurricanes were for centuries named after the Catholic saints' days on which the storms fell.

In 1953, the United States abandoned as confusing a two-year-old plan to name storms by a phonetic alphabet (Able, Baker, Charlie) when a new, international phonetic alphabet was introduced. That year, weather services began using female names for storms.

The practice of naming hurricanes solely after women came to an end in 1978 when men's and women's names were included in the Eastern North Pacific storm lists. In 1979, male and female names were included in lists for the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico.

Found it, lol, google if you want a link. I laughed just as hard when I heard the claim of sexist names.

[Seigrith]

Speaking of nomenclatures, I'm wondering what naming conventions members of the rap and hip-hop community will adhere to next. I don't really listen to that sort of music, but I get a little bit amused that the names some of them bestow upon themselves are sometimes known to be those of infamous roaring twenties era gangsters or notorious drug cartel leaders. What I'm really waiting on is a contingent of rappers or hop-hippers stalwart enough to name themselves after world-renowned composers or famous astronomers. I'd actually be pretty fucking impressed (but also vaguely annoyed) if I heard somebody get up on a microphone and say something like...

"GUESS WHAT? RACHMANINOFF IN THE HUT!"

or...

"MOTHERFUCKER, IT'S COPERNICUS, GO GET YOUR FUCKIN' TOURNIQUETS!"

If this actually happens, remember my words.

[Boldfinger]

[Cruzandercerberus]

Speaking of nomenclatures, I'm wondering what naming conventions members of the rap and hip-hop community will adhere to next. I don't really listen to that sort of music, but I get a little bit amused that the names some of them bestow upon themselves are sometimes known to be those of infamous roaring twenties era gangsters or notorious drug cartel leaders. What I'm really waiting on is a contingent of rappers or hop-hippers stalwart enough to name themselves after world-renowned composers or famous astronomers. I'd actually be pretty fucking impressed (but also vaguely annoyed) if I heard somebody get up on a microphone and say something like...

"GUESS WHAT? RACHMANINOFF IN THE HUT!"

or...

"MOTHERFUCKER, IT'S COPERNICUS, GO GET YOUR FUCKIN' TOURNIQUETS!"

If this actually happens, remember my words.

The possibility that Juvenile named himself after Juvenal cannot be ignored.

[KeysOfOdin]

A lot of kids around the world have fucked up parents or live in fucked up environments. We, as a whole, have a responsability in the quality of their lives. We decided to live in sociaty, so we need to put in place, the long-term solutions that will make, yes, even your lives, better. Why? Because they will become contributors. The lack of education and poverty have a direct correlation with crime and mental illness like neurosis

Their environments are crafting most of their behaviors. I don't beleive in human nature (beside the need to have kids, reach happiness, preserving our life), nor do I beleive in any god. It's a coward way to approach most of the problems about bad behaviors. It's equal to giving up and take no reponsablilities for our actions. There's some mental illness but most of our bad beheviors are due to neurosis from environments, like the lack of money, the lack of food, lack of love etc. I'm absolutly sure that if these kids were given an education at low age, from 5 years old to college, we'd have a very different sociaty. I'm not talking about academic education, I'm talking about behavior education. Nothing can be accomplished with someone who have huge problems of behavior, with very few exceptions. I think it's time to create responsible adults instead of creating only good workers with those who have more luck in life. Once they have learnt to be decent human beings, they'll be ready to learn a profession, and it's valid for everyone.

Few months ago, I've seen a documentary about 5-6 y old childrens at school with a teacher teaching them some basic ethic. At first, the kids were not able to comprehend abstract ethical problems...but at the end of the scholar year, all the kids were a lot more capable to do critical thinking. The next step of our evolution is in there. We're not going to go any further socially until we realise that our schools are only there to create good lil worker, not to create adults capable of critical thinking. Once you'll realise it, you'll have to ask yourself, why is it this way, cause our social patterns are no where near our level of knowledge. I don't think our gouvernments want us all to be smart adults capable of critical thinking. A lot of things would change. As it is, they have huge powers and we have none, or almost none. Think about it. There's people who have interests to keep you as ignorant, idiotic sheeps, raised by TV and videogames, willing to work very hard for money...their money. Thinking that money is equal to liberty is an illusion.

But ultimatly, our monetary sytem is the thing to blame. You might be biased about it, but look at the issues that money brings. You'll see that it brings a lot of shit to the table and next to nothing good, and the positive things could be replaced with good education about being contributors. The incentives are everywhere and new ones can easily replace money.

I wish this debate was in french, I'd be a lot more confortable. So, sorry for my grammar errors. I've been studying the subject for years. It's very interesting.

[Twinblades]

A lot of kids around the world have fucked up parents or live in fucked up environments. We, as a whole, have a responsibility in the quality of their lives. We decided to live in sociaty, so we need to put in place, the long-term solutions that will make, yes, even your lives, better. Why? Because they will become contributors. The lack of education and poverty have a direct correlation with crime and mental illness like neurosis

Their environments are crafting most of their behaviors. I don't believe in human nature (beside the need to have kids, reach happiness, preserving our life), nor do I believe in any god. It's a coward way to approach most of the problems about bad behaviors. It's equal to giving up and take no responsibilities for our actions. There's some mental illness but most of our bad behaviors are due to neurosis from environments, like the lack of money, the lack of food, lack of love etc. I'm absolutely sure that if these kids were given an education at low age, from 5 years old to college, we'd have a very different society. I'm not talking about academic education, I'm talking about behavior education. Nothing can be accomplished with someone who have huge problems of behavior, with very few exceptions. I think it's time to create responsible adults instead of creating only good workers with those who have more luck in life. Once they have learnt to be decent human beings, they'll be ready to learn a profession, and it's valid for everyone.

Few months ago, I've seen a documentary about 5-6 y old children at school with a teacher teaching them some basic ethic. At first, the kids were not able to comprehend abstract ethical problems...but at the end of the scholar year, all the kids were a lot more capable to do critical thinking. The next step of our evolution is in there. We're not going to go any further socially until we realize that our schools are only there to create good lil worker, not to create adults capable of critical thinking. Once you'll realize it, you'll have to ask yourself, why is it this way, cause our social patterns are no where near our level of knowledge. I don't think our governments want us all to be smart adults capable of critical thinking. A lot of things would change. As it is, they have huge powers and we have none, or almost none. Think about it. There's people who have interests to keep you as ignorant, idiotic sheeps, raised by TV and video games, willing to work very hard for money...their money. Thinking that money is equal to liberty is an illusion.

But ultimately, our monetary system is the thing to blame. You might be biased about it, but look at the issues that money brings. You'll see that it brings a lot of shit to the table and next to nothing good, and the positive things could be replaced with good education about being contributors. The incentives are everywhere and new ones can easily replace money.

I wish this debate was in french, I'd be a lot more comfortable. So, sorry for my grammar errors. I've been studying the subject for years. It's very interesting.

It's easier to raise and control a herd of sheep then it is to control a pack of wolves.

French version :
Il est plus facile à soulever et un troupeau de moutons, il est d'augmenter et de contrôler une meute de loups.

[KeysOfOdin]

What is sad is: people think that we need a huge structure to control us and just accept it but they don't want to hear about a system that could make us a lot...I means ... A LOT MORE...able to live peacefully and decently in sociaty all by ourself...without the hammer of justice above our heads on everything we do. We could acheive a real liberty. A sociaty where the role of governements is minimal and almost non-existent.

We're only patching holes on the roads right now...that's retartedly uneffective. Why would we want to patch holes if we have the knowledge to build very long-lasting roads (it's an image if you didnt understand yet...).

[Cruzandercerberus]

but ultimatly, our monetary sytem is the thing to blame. You might be biased about it, but look at the issues that money brings. You'll see that it brings a lot of shit to the table and next to nothing good, and the positive things could be replaced with good education about being contributors. The incentives are everywhere and new ones can easily replace money.

This is stupid, the only reason people do ANYTHING is for personal gain. Including teaching other people's children. Get this euro-marxist QQ out of here.

[KeysOfOdin]

I'm from Canada, keep your weak arguments out of here. Bring something to the table ffs.

[Cruzandercerberus]

NO-U!

Really, let's hear some Ideas for reform. Since money is simply not going anywhere.

[pathwriter]

Few months ago, I've seen a documentary about 5-6 y old childrens at school with a teacher teaching them some basic ethic. At first, the kids were not able to comprehend abstract ethical problems...but at the end of the scholar year, all the kids were a lot more capable to do critical thinking. The next step of our evolution is in there.

So many fallacies and lies that I don't know where to start. Ethics and critical thinking are absolutely dependent upon abstract reasoning. Prior to neurological developments that coincide roughly with pubarche, humans are not capable of much abstract reasoning. With the exception of unusual prodigies who are, by definition, not neurotypical, this is the exact reason why trying to teach algebra before middle school universally fails. Even fractions, which are a lousy system to begin with, tax the capabilities of young children. Any evidence indicated by the documentary you watched that first or second graders are capable of critical thinking is somewhere between deliberately misconstrued (I can make a chimp appear to be thinking critically if I train it to respond a certain way) and utter failure in the scientific process.

Of course, they could have been referring to "critical thinking" when they meant something more basic like, say, immediate cost-to-benefit analysis. Practically every animal on the planet is capable of that, humans just make it more complicated by virtue of culture. Ask a child to make a long-term decision and, with only a few rare exceptions, they'll effectively pick a solution at random. I was one of the exceptions, incidentally, and it's nothing special to be able to think that way early. The result was mostly that I never understood my peers.

As for your thoughts about what education ought to be... yeah, I used to share those kinds of ideals. Then I learned, up close and personal, that the world needs ditch diggers. Even if we accept that everyone is equally capable, which is so laughably wrong that philosophers and scientists from Socrates onward are threatening to disrupt Earth's orbit by spinning in their graves, most people have no ambition to achieve high. A disgusting number of people entering law, medical, and business school are doing so just because they think that it is a fast track to a lot of money but they soon learn that their work ethic (and incompetence) condemn them to toil away at best in middle management over some cube farm.

The current failure in American post-secondary education, and I imagine it is even more true in Europe where pretty much anyone can be sent to university owing to socialist government programs, is that any idiot can get in. The result has been a dumbing down of university to the point that I had to practically hold a gun to my own head to suffer it since the world refuses to value me without a meaningless piece of paper. The world needs cogs to make it run and the truth is that most people are content to be cogs. The distribution of wealth as a result of the sweat of their labor should be examined, because only the most neurotic of fiscal conservatives (read: the richest of the rich who knows damned well he never worked for it) can agree with the current ratio of wealth distribution and income versus need.

Like it or not, part of the reason why the poor black community does not improve is because it does not want to. There are certainly external factors involved, but the world is full of rags-to-riches stories from every corner of the planet. I live near a bunch of white people who refuse to improve, the sort of white trash who collect dead cars and give one another black eyes on a regular basis. It's not remotely unique to poor black people, but four centuries of baggage has created a lot of tension that pulls in half a dozen different directions.

[KeysOfOdin]

Errrr I already did...or maybe the words "money is bad" made you panic and you forgot...or you're just to lazy to read my ~10 minutes text.

Bring something that prove that you started thinking about it more than 5 mins ago and we'll talk,